Couple of interesting things about side spin

[ENGLISH!]

PS to my posts.

If anyone chooses to think that differences do not yield differences they certainly have the right to have that belief.

Personally, I don not see any logic in that.

It seems to me that differences, no matter how small will yield a difference. To me... that is a very logical premise & conclusion. IF there IS a difference, THEN there will be a difference.

In a game where one(1) mm or 1/2 mm can be of a rather large significant difference.... who is to say what difference would be insignificant.

Just some food for thought.

Best Wishes to ALL.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Rick, it's just as easy or hard to hit any point on the cueball (more or less). Apparently you believe that intentional english is more forgiving of the same stroke errors. What is your justification for this belief?

This "conversation" is already completely scripted. You'll hear the same old nonsense about "pocket zones" and your appeals to reason will fall on deaf (some might say dumb) ears.

You'll find many versions of it in the aiming forum.

pj <- did I mention the AIMING FORUM?
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

If one never leaves their cave that is deep in the woods one will never see or hear the reality of the big city(picture) & the expanded knowledge of others.

If one stays in the realm of their small cave their ears will only hear the echoes of their own voice.

That can tend to make one think that their voice is the voice of God.

Some would say that those are 'dumb ears'.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Good thread, Pat.

I've always said that "a nickel is more forgiving" and you can apply the same amount of English with a big tip as you can a smaller one. IMHO, a "flatter" tip (assuming it is properly chalked) will allow you to play "closer to the edge" of the cue ball than a more "pointed" tip. The "pointed" tip will deflect off the cue ball easier than a "flatter" tip if your stroke is a bit off..

The BEST 9-ball money player that I ever saw (back as a kid in the pool hall) was a road hustler and he used a 14mm tip that was shaped like a nickel. Ever since then, I've done the same.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Good thread, Pat.

Thanks.

I've always said that "a nickel is more forgiving"

I think my analysis above, showing the extremely small difference between nickel and dime contact points, contradicts that idea.

...and you can apply the same amount of English with a big tip as you can a smaller one.

Of course.

The "pointed" tip will deflect off the cue ball easier than a "flatter" tip if your stroke is a bit off..

I don't believe that's true. Do you have a theory for why it would be?

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

Good thread, Pat.

I've always said that "a nickel is more forgiving" and you can apply the same amount of English with a big tip as you can a smaller one. IMHO, a "flatter" tip (assuming it is properly chalked) will allow you to play "closer to the edge" of the cue ball than a more "pointed" tip. The "pointed" tip will deflect off the cue ball easier than a "flatter" tip if your stroke is a bit off..

The BEST 9-ball money player that I ever saw (back as a kid in the pool hall) was a road hustler and he used a 14mm tip that was shaped like a nickel. Ever since then, I've done the same.

Bob Meucci has a video on his Web Site that explains some of the give & take.

I agree with you & just until the past few years, when I starting buying some LD shafts, I always used a 13mm soft 'flat' tip with the edges just 'softened' with a bit of 'rounding'.

Best Wishes 2 YOU & All.

 

[jburkm002]

So the big questions are. With all your vast knowledge. What shaft, tip diameter, taper and tip does Dr. Dave use? Do you use what you use because of the vast testing you have done?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[nfuids]

At the end, what's important, is the contact point of your tips on the CB.

So when people talk about a tip of english, what they really are referring to is a specific distance from the Center CB. Regardless of your tip shape/size, you need to hit that specific point to apply a given quantity of english.

I never use my center tip as an aiming point (unless I want to apply no english). I kind of imagine, depending on how much english I want, what part of my tip will contact CB, and I focus on that, as oppose as to where my whole tip is.

 

[ronscuba]

Any weight given to the indirect effects of a thinner shaft and more curved tip ?

A thinner shaft will move around more if the player does not tighten their bridge. This could cause more missed shots and more unintended english.

A thinner shaft might lead to the player shifting, offsetting or pivoting more than intended when using english.

Psychological effects of a player believing a thinner shaft and/or rounder tip, all by themselves will produce more english.

A combination of the above with a more rounded tip might lead to a player missing more and sometimes getting more english if their regular playing shaft is thicker with a flatter tip.

If the above is plausible, a thinner shaft and more rounded tip could indirectly or play a role in producing results of more english and more missed shots ?

Permanent solution is to bridge tighter, stroke straighter, pay more attention to tip placement. For a beginner, a 13mm shaft and nickel tip might help them pocket more balls vs. an 11 mm shaft and dime tip ?

 

[ENGLISH!]

At the end, what's important, is the contact point of your tips on the CB.

So when people talk about a tip of english, what they really are referring to is a specific distance from the Center CB. Regardless of your tip shape/size, you need to hit that specific point to apply a given quantity of english.

I never use my center tip as an aiming point (unless I want to apply no english). I kind of imagine, depending on how much english I want, what part of my tip will contact CB, and I focus on that, as oppose as to where my whole tip is.

In the simple form, that's it, but the location on the ball is not the whole story.

For a flat tip ] Is the edge making contact?

or for a flat tip with just a radius edge. } ...

or for a radius tip with a nickle radius )...

or for a more 'pointed' tip like a dime radius > ...

at what angle is the tip surface when it strikes the ball even at the exact same location?

And would one rather have a soft, medium, or hard tip for any particular given shaped tip?

And for how long does the tip maintain that precise shape or radius & does a particular hardness of tip better conform to the radius shape of the cue ball?

How can one answer all of the questions regarding all that for another individual to choose what they might want.

It's experiment & feel based when it comes to one using an off center hit for an intended purpose, whether it be for the use of squirt or for the use of the spin.

I think we can all agree that a flat tip would certainly seem to be better for one that is trying to hit the center axis of the ball & will have some margin for error in that endeavor with that shape tip, but what about when one goes too far off center?

An athlete like a good hitter in baseball can grab one of two bats that weigh the exact same in total weight & tell if one is more barrel heavy than they like over the other one. Raymond Floyd & golfers like him can tell if the grip installer put on one(1) layer of too much tape. How thick is a single piece of tape? John Havlichek(spelling?) can tell that the goal is 1/2 inch too low or too high just from shooting a few shots on it.

Some are feel players like athletes & others are more mechanical players in the vein of 'book worms'. Some can feel small differences & others can not. I'm NOT talking about on one shot but on a series of shots like in the course of a game or two.

Each individual should make their own determinations & NOT rely on others. That way they will be responsible for their own game & not possibly find out way down the road that someone was wrong about something & they have been working under a misconception for how ever long.

Again just food for thought.

Best Wishes to You & All.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

At the end, what's important, is the contact point of your tips on the CB.

So when people talk about a tip of english, what they really are referring to is a specific distance from the Center CB. Regardless of your tip shape/size, you need to hit that specific point to apply a given quantity of english.

I never use my center tip as an aiming point (unless I want to apply no english). I kind of imagine, depending on how much english I want, what part of my tip will contact CB, and I focus on that, as oppose as to where my whole tip is.

I think that's the most accurate way, and because it's realistic it will apply equally well under varied circumstances.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

A thinner shaft will move around more if the player does not tighten their bridge.

Why would that be?

A thinner shaft might lead to the player shifting, offsetting or pivoting more than intended when using english.

Why?

Psychological effects of a player believing a thinner shaft and/or rounder tip, all by themselves will produce more english.

If these exist, then so do their opposites.

A combination of the above with a more rounded tip might lead to a player missing more and sometimes getting more english if their regular playing shaft is thicker with a flatter tip.

If any of them are true. No offense, but I don't buy 'em.

Permanent solution is to bridge tighter, stroke straighter, pay more attention to tip placement.

I agree with this (except maybe the tighter bridge).

For a beginner, a 13mm shaft and nickel tip might help them pocket more balls vs. an 11 mm shaft and dime tip ?

I don't think it matters, so I'd suggest a thinner one for its proven benefits.

pj
chgo

 

[Drop The Rock]

An athlete like a good hitter in baseball can grab one of two bats that weigh the exact same in total weight & tell if one is more barrel heavy than they like over the other one. Raymond Floyd & golfers like him can tell if the grip installer put on one(1) layer of too much tape. How thick is a single piece of tape? John Havlichek(spelling?) can tell that goal is 1/2 inch too low or too high just from shooting a few shots on it.

Some are feel players like athletes & others are more mechanical players in the vein of 'book worms'. Some can feel small differences & others can not. I'm NOT talking about on one shot but on a series of shots like in the course of a game or two.

.

I'd like to point out that you are proving the point of the OP by mentioning the above athletes. What you mentioned are minuscule differences. Yes they can be felt but if one maintains a strong sports psychology it wouldn't matter, nor does it matter from a physics standpoint either. Shane and earl play with longer cues which affects the mass of the cue and the balance point, does that make a difference in the scheme of things? No, because the only difference is that the maximum amount of force and minimum amount of force the cue can produce are theoretically a tiny bit higher than other cues. A layer of tap on a golf grip is even more of minuscule difference and will only affect a player psychologically until they get used to it.

Most top players use tip offset in relation to the diamonds of the table.
As PJ mentioned earlier the half tip perception gives you (basically) English 1,2, and 3. A smaller diameter tip does not offer more or less contact points on the cue-ball. It just makes them a little easier to see.

That being said its easier to get lost on the cueball with a smaller diameter shaft. For example imagine a pencil taped to a wall, pointed vertically. To determine if the pencil is in the center of the wall the brain compares the remaining space on both sides. Now put a whiteboard on the same wall. Which is easier to center? The pencil with 8 ft on both sides, or the white board with 3 feet on both sides?

There is a difference in what the human brain interprets vs what is actually happening. Usually our eyes or brain are playing tricks on us. Its not that "bookworms" don't "feel" the difference, its that they often choose to ignore them and be objective about them.

Players who "feel" the differences often tend to overthink things than the "bookworms"

Even those so called bookworms can play great shape without analyzing when actually playing and they reinforce that when practicing.

At the end of the day pool is much more mentally taxing than physically. Psychology doesn't have answers for physics and physics doesn't have answers for psychology. That is why "feel" is acknowledging a change in equipment and interpreting other meanings. The taper, tip, a diameter can be different, and from a physics standpoint, other than deflection (diameter related) not matter at all unless you want it to.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I'd like to point out that you are proving the point of the OP by mentioning the above athletes. What you mentioned are minuscule differences. Yes they can be felt but if one maintains a strong sports psychology it wouldn't matter, nor does it matter from a physics standpoint either. Shane and earl play with longer cues which affects the mass of the cue and the balance point, does that make a difference in the scheme of things? No, because the only difference is that the maximum amount of force and minimum amount of force the cue can produce are theoretically a tiny bit higher than other cues. A layer of tap on a golf grip is even more of minuscule difference and will only affect a player psychologically until they get used to it.

Most top players use tip offset in relation to the diamonds of the table.
As PJ mentioned earlier the half tip perception gives you (basically) English 1,2, and 3. A smaller diameter tip does not offer more or less contact points on the cue-ball. It just makes them a little easier to see.

That being said its easier to get lost on the cueball with a smaller diameter shaft. For example imagine a pencil taped to a wall, pointed vertically. To determine if the pencil is in the center of the wall the brain compares the remaining space on both sides. Now put a whiteboard on the same wall. Which is easier to center? The pencil with 8 ft on both sides, or the white board with 3 feet on both sides?

There is a difference in what the human brain interprets vs what is actually happening. Usually our eyes or brain are playing tricks on us. Its not that "bookworms" don't "feel" the difference, its that they often choose to ignore them and be objective about them.

Players who "feel" the differences often tend to overthink things than the "bookworms"

Even those so called bookworms can play great shape without analyzing when actually playing and they reinforce that when practicing.

At the end of the day pool is much more mentally taxing than physically. Psychology doesn't have answers for physics and physics doesn't have answers for psychology. That is why "feel" is acknowledging a change in equipment and interpreting other meanings. The taper, tip, a diameter can be different, and from a physics standpoint, other than deflection (diameter related) not matter at all unless you want it to.

Like I've said, anyone that wants to believe that differences do not yield differences certainly has the right to believe whatever they choose to believe.

Mark Brooks came to the top of his game one year & was very successful. So much so that club manufacturers came calling with endorsement deals. He switched from Hogan irons to another brand. He was basically never heard of ever again.

I single layer of tape that increases the size of the grip by just those few thousandths of an inch can require a golfer to either change their swing or change how they hold the club to try to get the same exact results.

A golfer breaks a shaft in a driver & has an 'identical' shaft put in & it's never really the same & adjustments must be made to try to yield the same results.

The temperature in a bowling alley changes because of the crowd for the event vs a practice session earlier in the day & the bowler has trouble finding the groove that he had zoned in just a few short hours ago & must now make adjustments.

Small differences can be HUGE in the effect that they can cause.

The differences are not imagined. They are real. One can choose to ignore the reality of that if one so chooses to make that psychologically type decision, but that does not change the reality.

If a 'book worm' wants to psychologically overlook & dismiss such differences & the effects that they can have, then that it certainly their right & they can rationalize it any way that they choose, just as you have.

I've just offered food for thought for anyone that wants to do the thinking. It's basic simple fundamental logic...

a difference yields a difference. That should be a 'Mike Drop'.

Best Wishes to You & ALL.

PS I'm a book worm- athlete, but I know when to be which one when.

 

[dr_dave]

So the big questions are. With all your vast knowledge. What shaft, tip diameter, taper and tip does Dr. Dave use? Do you use what you use because of the vast testing you have done?

I currently use a Predator Z2 shaft. The tip diameter is 11.75 mm and the shaft has a conical taper. I have used several different tips on this shaft (LePRo, Moori-hard, Moori-medium, Triangle-hard). I am currently using Triangle-hard, but I don't really have a strong preference since I easily adjust to tip hardness, "feel," and efficiency. All I really care about is if the tip holds chalk, lasts a long time, and holds its shape fairly well. I like the Z2 because the natural pivot length is well-matched to my preferred bridge length (13-14 inches). For information related to all of the factors involved with tip and shaft selection, see:

LD shaft advantages and disadvantages
cue natural pivot length
cue "feel," "hit," "feedback," and "playability"
cue tip hardness effects
cue tip efficiency

Enjoy,
Dave

PS: I don't care what chalk I use because I am careful to chalk before every shot. For more info, see chalk comparison.