Get rid of jump cues for Mosconi Cup

[KMRUNOUT]

Are you referring to me as ignorant?

Well ... he doesn't own me if that makes you feel any better

Anything I've said is my opinion of decades of playing better than average pool

The jump shot should be banned period. Exactly like in snooker.

Going airborne to evade another ball is evident of a weaker player looking for an easy way out. Learn to use the rails if you're in trouble

JMO sir. Have a nice day ...

And what you have said here is plainly evident of someone who may play pool well, may know some things about some things, but clearly has very little aptitude with logic and reasoning. I wonder if you are "not ignorant" enough to recognize that what you have submitted here bears no resemblance to a logic argument. That isn't an opinion. I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just pointing out a simple fact.

This is probably what the poster was talking about that you replied to.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

If you want to get on camera with me and have a live debate on a pool table about jump cues and kicking I will bet $1000 that I can win the debate.

Otherwise I have no interest in playing you any pool related to this debate. I don't care how good you are or are not.

I do not sell jump cues presently. But your earlier insinuation that my support of them is only because you thought I currently sell them was out of line. If you can't come up with a better reason than you simply don't like them don't try to discredit my logical reasons in support of them with personal accusations.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

John, surely you recognize that whether or not you "win" the debate is open for debate. Just like this thread. The people that understand logic will see it as obvious that you won. The others won't, and will argue their points even when those points are shown to be illogical and in some cases factually incorrect. In any case, I'd gladly back you in that debate lol.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I truly believe I could learn to jump well if I chose

It is easier to jump well than to kick well..

You don't see the absurdity of saying *both* of these two statements?

KMRUNOUT

 

[philly]

John, surely you recognize that whether or not you "win" the debate is open for debate. Just like this thread. The people that understand logic will see it as obvious that you won. The others won't, and will argue their points even when those points are shown to be illogical and in some cases factually incorrect. In any case, I'd gladly back you in that debate lol.

KMRUNOUT

Mr. Spock is not dead. KMR, if we all agreed with you would that make you happy?

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Three thoughts, and a disclaimer: I don't care either way in this debate, I can jump if I need to, and kick when I need to.

Thought one: Can someone please explain why a jump cue is a 'crutch' and a gimmick and makes the game 'easier' while putting diamonds on the rail to aid in aiming and banking is gospel and at it's core is not exactly the same thing. If playing on a table without rail diamonds would be considerably harder, then they are serving the same purpose - making a difficult shot easier. How did one helper get 'necessary part of the game' status while the other is a 'tool for lesser players'?

Which leads into the second thought - I think this entire debate is just another facet of the 'I spent a lot of time learning this game, and if you didn't, you aren't as good as me' debate. Other facets include the 'handicaps are for losers' debate where people say the only way to get better is to lose (preferably money) to better players based solely on the logic that they got better that way, and that's how it should be done. This debate also took place when LD shafts first came out and people complained that it made the game easier for people without the knowledge to give for deflection.

Final thought - while some are praising Mike Zulgan for banning jump cues, I think it is a symptom of the greater problem with pool - no standardization. If the jump cue is a legal piece of equipment then it should be legal. Changing that one aspect should not be within the purvey of a league or tour just because they don't like it. What if suddenly The Masters decided that over-sized composite golf clubs were 'bad for the game' and made it 'too easy' and made everyone use persimmon drivers with steel shafts 'because that's how the game was meant to be played' They wouldn't - because they have their s#$% together and realize that progression is part of the game, and that games and equipment evolve or sink into obscurity.

Great post. And for your first paragraph...NO. No one can explain that. But they sure as hell will flail around trying. Oh well.

Well said.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Mr. Spock is not dead. KMR, if we all agreed with you would that make you happy?

I'm pretty happy as is.

However, you can really never have too much happiness. So if what I was saying was factually correct, then yes it would make me very happy indeed if people agreed with me. If what I was saying was wrong, I'd be happy if people were able to point out accurately and logically where the error was.

Feel free to start now

KMRUNOUT

 

[Dockter]

Do you ever watch your opponent when you play them safe? A high percentage of the time I see my opponent going for their jump cue before the cue ball stops rolling. Pretty much an indication it is their only means of reaching the next ball in play. Of course there are young players who have learned to kick. Just seems our current society places a high value on simplicity. Hours of "hard" work versus a few minutes of instruction. Regarding Tor's method. What percentage of our up and coming players even know who Tor is? Let alone learn his or any system.



Lyn

This is one of the common arguments to get rid of it, but why do they jump instead of kick? I do think jumping is pretty easy if you are just trying for the hit but most of the good players I watch go for the jump cue because jumping gives them a better angle to actually make the ball rather than just kicking at it. It's not because they don't know how to kick, it's because they are taking a higher percentage shot in that case.

I'm not a good player but I do know how to kick fairly well ( because I suck and leave myself hooked often) but that being said it's a lot easier to make a ball if it's a simple jump then trying to kick it in. Most of the time on a kick I'm trying to kick through a a path with multiple balls and the jump I only have to clear one. This isn't even bringing up the equipment we have to play on in league. There are many times I would rather jump then deal with some of the dead rails we run into.

 

[philly]

I'm pretty happy as is.

However, you can really never have too much happiness. So if what I was saying was factually correct, then yes it would make me very happy indeed if people agreed with me. If what I was saying was wrong, I'd be happy if people were able to point out accurately and logically where the error was.

Feel free to start now

KMRUNOUT

There is no right or wrong in matters of opinion and by your serial posting it seems it is very important for you to be right. I still believe they should be banned and I cannot agree with you less about how easy you think kicking well is. That's my opinion. Which, unlike some of our posters, I will not force feed upon anyone else. JMHO.

 

[jburkm002]

How about if you hook yourself, you have to kick. If your opponent hooks you. You can jump.

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[Dockter]

How about if you hook yourself, you have to kick. If your opponent hooks you. You can jump.

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It was a cool idea that you can only use the jump cue your first time at the table that inning ( meaning it was only if your opponent left you safe ) but then again I'm someone that couldn't care less if jump cues are in the game or out.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

There is no right or wrong in matters of opinion and by your serial posting it seems it is very important for you to be right. I still believe they should be banned and I cannot agree with you less about how easy you think kicking well is. That's my opinion. Which, unlike some of our posters, I will not force feed upon anyone else. JMHO.

Lol...ok. Lot's of stuff here.

Recognizing the difference between matters of opinion and matters of fact is a skill, just like jumping and kicking. I would say it may be more difficult than both of these. In a nutshell...whatever ones beliefs on whether jump cues should be banned, that is a matter of opinion. Whether or not the arguments they make to support their opinion are logically valid is a matter of fact.

"Serial posting", haha that's good. I read threads that may be very long when I first get to them, and I comment as I go through. So typically I will have a block of posts. I don't stay on threads up to the minute. However, you have badly misunderstood one or many things if you think I'm "trying to be right". Often people make claims that contradict other claims they made, or say things that are logically invalid. I like to clear up those errors. You may notice there are others, right here in this thread, that do the same. Likewise, there are some that seem to really hate logic. In any case, I can tell you with certainty that you are incorrect if you believe the point of my posts is to "be right".

I never once said kicking well was easy. It is super difficult. I said kicking the easiest kick shot is easy. It is. It is WAY easier than making the simplest jump shot. What I *did* say is that jumping *well*, like kicking *well*, requires quite a lot of skill. Sorry you misread.

Finally, the beauty of a forum is that no opinions are force fed, whether logical, illogical, or anything else. Reading all threads are optional. If you can't seem to avoid my posts, well then I will take that compliment to my engaging and brilliant writing style. Thanks!

KMRUNOUT

 

[JB Cases]

Funny how these "arguments" become repetitive and self-contradictory. Here is a simple fact: It is easier to learn how to kick than how to jump. The easiest kick is laughable...someone who never shot a ball in their life can likely accomplish it very quickly. The easiest jump, however, requires some basic mechanical ability.

Now, if you want to talk about kicking "effectively", or "well", or "skillfully", well now that's a whole different thing. THE EXACT SAME CAN BE SAID OF JUMPING. Hitting the object ball in simple situations can be learned fairly easily by players of low skill. Producing a jump shot that results in a quality outcome by PRO standards is *way* different. How are people not getting this??

I think this thread would grind to a halt if people posting against jump cues because they are too easy were required to submit a video of them executing a great jump shot *with a positive, intended result*. Let's SEE the shots that are so easy with a jump cue but so tough to kick at. Show me.

KMRUNOUT

Exactly.

Anyone who can hit a ball in a straight line can be taught to kick very quickly. But even players who are decent often have trouble learning to jump if they don't have the right mechanics for it.

I often had to teach a person the proper mechanics before they would buy a jump cue BECAUSE they would try and it and FAIL with it and thus conclude that the "cue did not work" and start to walk away.

I did demonstrations where I would show jump shots from very easy to very difficult.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i7kJFY1zyI&list=PLCDAE91F25C56ADDC

Simple jump, jump-draw, jump-follow, with sidespin playing position, jumping into clusters, long distance jump shots, jumping to object balls on the rail..... if there is anyone in this thread who doubts that all those shots don't require skill to learn and master then I am willing to prove otherwise.

And lastly,

take any shot on the table that you might face, put the word jump in front of it and tell me how that shot got easier?

 

[SamLambert]

Love jump shots. Love jump cues. I'm certainly hoping they don't do away with them.

 

[pt109]

John, surely you recognize that whether or not you "win" the debate is open for debate. Just like this thread. The people that understand logic will see it as obvious that you won. The others won't, and will argue their points even when those points are shown to be illogical and in some cases factually incorrect. In any case, I'd gladly back you in that debate lol.

KMRUNOUT

Well, Mr Logic....logic is a soulless thing.....
...it's logical for a mugger to kill his victim; hence, no witnesses.

To me, billiard games are beautiful.....and bouncing a ball off the slate is not beautiful.

Aesthetics is hard to quantify....but try to look at the game from that perspective....
....you might change your mind.

 

[JB Cases]

And yes, there is right and wrong in a conversation.

A statement like jumping is easier than kicking is not a true statement. It's not a matter of opinion it's a matter of fact.

A statement that jumping causes people not to learn kicking is not a true statement. That can be your opinion but it is not backed up by fact.

there are dozens of videos on YouTube teaching how to kick. There are dozens of videos with kicking systems for sale. There are posters one can buy with kicking systems. Kicking systems have been around for more than 100 years and described in just about all the old books.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+kick+in+pool&spfreload=1

People have this idea that kicking is some sort of mystical art which can only be learned by going off on on a journey to find a master willing to teach you if you are willing to put in hundreds of hours learning.

Utter bullshit.

Kicking is a skill that can be learned in minutes, and trained to proficiency with a solid week of practice and the ability to count. Now the tiny nuances, knowing how to adjust for off angles, how to adjust for the cloth conditions, for the ball conditions - YES - that takes a LOT more practice - but Jeeze anyone who has EVER EVER EVER put there finger on the rail to tell someone where to aim for a kick knows how easy it is to kick - just learn where to aim for and shoot in a straight line. Try handing a jump cue to someone who never did it before at a critical time in a league match and see how much harder you have to work to get them to understand what they need to do to have any chance at a successful shot.

 

[cardiac kid]

This is one of the common arguments to get rid of it, but why do they jump instead of kick? I do think jumping is pretty easy if you are just trying for the hit but most of the good players I watch go for the jump cue because jumping gives them a better angle to actually make the ball rather than just kicking at it. It's not because they don't know how to kick, it's because they are taking a higher percentage shot in that case.

I'm not a good player but I do know how to kick fairly well ( because I suck and leave myself hooked often) but that being said it's a lot easier to make a ball if it's a simple jump then trying to kick it in. Most of the time on a kick I'm trying to kick through a a path with multiple balls and the jump I only have to clear one. This isn't even bringing up the equipment we have to play on in league. There are many times I would rather jump then deal with some of the dead rails we run into.

I'm the same way. Only jump when absolutely necessary. In the rare case where I believe I can make the ball, the jump is easier than the kick. I've watched many high caliber players "stick" themselves only to undue their error by making a jump shot. In that case, a kick is a sellout 99.9% of the time. It's another tool in my case. Just don't like to use it. OK, in all honesty I HATE jump cues.

Lyn

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Well, Mr Logic....logic is a soulless thing.....
...it's logical for a mugger to kill his victim; hence, no witnesses.

To me, billiard games are beautiful.....and bouncing a ball off the slate is not beautiful.

Aesthetics is hard to quantify....but try to look at the game from that perspective....
....you might change your mind.

Its a shame logic doesn't do much for you. There is limitless beauty within it.

Agreed, aesthetics are hard to quantify. I personally think a very purely hit jump shot is quite beautiful. I think almost all very well executed shots have a beauty to them.

As for the mugger, that is kind of shortsighted. What is logical depends on the muggers anticipated or desired outcome. If he thinks he might get caught, killing the victim isn't very logical if the goal is to avoid a longer jail sentence. He may be on video. Likewise the mugger my have moral objections towards murder but not towards theft. Just like anything else, the parameters need to be defined for any logic to be practically useful.

But just like the jmup vs kick debate, logic and beauty are not mutually exclusive. You can have both. In the vast infinity of existence, quite often they go hand in hand.

KMRUNOUT

 

[SUPERSTAR]

There is something to be said about putting someone in an unkickable position.
Jump shots took the skill to do that right out of the equation.

Pool has suffered ever since.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

HAHA!! What a great example.

Let's compare two scenarios:

You are at pool league and you are about to give a time out to your weakest player. Equivalent to an APA 2. Assume the rules allow jumping. So, you have about 30 seconds or so to explain to the player where to hit the ball on the rail for a kick, whay english to use, etc. Likewise, you have the same period to tell them how to jump over the interfering ball. Suppose they have never attempted a jump shot, and never attempted a kick shot.

In which scenario are they more likely to hit the ball?

I have specifically had my APA 2 kick *IN* a ball on two different occasions, both 2 rails with some distance, because I told them exactly how to hit it. I don't think that person is very likely to make any sort of jump shot with any cue in the few seconds I spent telling them where to hit.

I guess the knowledge of where to kick came from me, who has plenty of years of experience at it. But the physical technique for kicking is simply far easier than for jumping.

Can someone be taught how to jump (clear a ball) in 5 minutes? Sure. Can everyone? No way. Not even close. Some people just can't do it. The technique is just not there. To be fair, those same people will have a lot of trouble learning anything in pool.

I think what the "it takes 5 minutes to learn how to jump" people really mean is that a player with a moderate amount of basic ability can be taught how to clear an interfering ball fairly easily. If that is all there is to jumping, well then, discussion over. But obviously there is far more to it than that.

KMRUNOUT

 

[SUPERSTAR]

You lost me at APA 2...

Jump cues suck. PERIOD