Get rid of jump cues for Mosconi Cup

You seem to have trouble catching on, but let me help you out. Back in the early 90s there were a bunch of jump cues that were developed that made it absurdly easy to execute jump shots. First we had people who jumped 'dart style' using just their shafts, which was cool and stuff, and the first time I saw that was maybe in about '92. Before long they came out with cues that were about a foot long and had no tips on them, they were just bare wood at about 15mm and you put just a little bit of chalk on the wood. Looked crazy, but you could jump about anything with them, even when the balls were just an inch or two apart. Then next was the worst of all, which was the 'gas powered' jump cues or whatever, and they were again about the length of a shaft and had a big 15mm tip made of what looked like white plastic or something but supposedly had a special gas inside. Who knows whether that was true or not or what the material was, but the point was now with one of those things you could jump a ball that was within about a half an inch (or maybe even less) from the blocker. So at that point things got a little absurd because there was virtually no snookers that you couldn't jump out of and it got to where some players were so good at it that even hooking them at all became a pointless exercise. They just pull out this thing that looks like a big stir stick and hop over the ball and you have to wonder why you bothered even playing the hook in the first place. (Howard Vickery was one player I can recall who was a master with that little cue, but there were lots of others.)

So at that point there was some outcry from fans and players alike, and as a result tours and tournament directors started waking up and implementing a rule that jump cues had to be a minimum of 40" long. I'm not sure who was first with that rule, whether it was the PBT or the Camel Tour or what, but before long it became the standard for all tournaments and it more or less remains the same today.

So that's the history, and so like I said in my original post that you had trouble understanding, knowing that history reduces the whole jump cue discussion to some simple logical questions. See if you can follow along...


Question #1: Is there a point at which jumping becomes too easy and jump cues need to be regulated? YES or NO

Now logically we'd have to think the answer to this is YES, because otherwise the 40" rule for jump cues wouldn't exist and we go back to the early 90s and the 12-inch cues with the 15mm wooden tips and the 'gas powered' jumpers and so forth. Now if that's what you want then that's a discussion we can have, but I think if you saw one of those cues in action you'd agree that they're pretty absurd.

But if it's agreed that the answer to #1 is YES then what follows is:

Question #2: Are we at that point now? YES or NO (with reasons)

And that's pretty much it.


So like I say, comparing jump cues to chalk, or to gloves, or to low-deflection shafts, or whatever, is pure and simple missing the point. It's clear that jump cues can be regulated, and the reason it's clear is because it's been done before. The question is whether we've reached that point again. I say yes.

Clear enough for you?

Actually it was the Texas Express tour that brought in the 41" rule.

Your answers:

Jumping too easy, no. There is no instance when jumping is too easy because it is still a shooter using an inert object to make the ball move. The reason jump cues were regulated is because some of the early ones were damaging to the other equipment and that is against the rules.

2. Are we at that point? No. For nearly 20 years jump cues in the current form have been a part of pool worldwide and it is only here in America where people debate it. The rest of the world which has the bulk of better players has accepted them as part of the sport and mastered their use to round out their skills. Only in America do some people cling to some outdated notion that pool would better if it were like in the 40s,50s,60s,70s,80s etc....

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk
 
Guilty !!!!!!!! Yep it was us that came with the 40 inch minimum rule.

One year at Shooters in Olathe during one of our bigger events, a guy rolled out a slew of jump rods, not even as long as a shaft. Sold a ton of them.....all the kids in the joint were not really instructed in the proper use of said tool....and did some damage to the tables. Hence, a compromise was reached and Mr. McChesney wrote it into our rules.
 
Guilty !!!!!!!! Yep it was us that came with the 40 inch minimum rule.

One year at Shooters in Olathe during one of our bigger events, a guy rolled out a slew of jump rods, not even as long as a shaft. Sold a ton of them.....all the kids in the joint were not really instructed in the proper use of said tool....and did some damage to the tables. Hence, a compromise was reached and Mr. McChesney wrote it into our rules.


You visited my poolroom a few times or at least once with McChesney Robin in Richmond Va. I did host many ...

That's another huge reason I don't like the shot. Couldn't stand anybody pounding on my pool tables constantly. If they wanted to practice jumping I sent them down to my competitor and let them beat up their tables and put holes in the walls :smile:

The shot needs to be eliminated imo

Hope you are well Robin ...
 
So do you think all "full" cues are the same?
Never said that. I do think that all shots apart from the break should be made with the same cue. That way you'll probably never see the abominations people are trying to pass off as cues, the price paid will be too great for the advantage.

Why not ban different cues and tips? I mean if it's truly about only skill and not equipment then make everyone play with a Cuetec and the same tip, pressed to the same hardness?
I've yet to see any cue that makes playing pool as easy as jump cues make jumping the ball. When and if that happens, then that should be up for discussion.

Jump cues are not brutal on the equipment. The tips and materials used are not as hard as the balls. Ever heard of G-10 tips? I gave jump demonstrations and lessons for several years. Then you know how easily it can be taught.

As for kicking, I can teach any player to kick in five minutes as well using any number of kicking systems out there. Lol. Not even close to the same thing. Of course it will take time to master but the basics can be learned in five minutes.

I presume when you say you spent hours on end learning to jump you mean with a jump cue. You developed a skill to a high degree which you then passed on to a player whose overall skill was better than yours. Just like Tom Rossman teaches better players how to kick using systems every day. I wasn't trying to brag, just to illustrate that as a C-player, with really bad mechanics, I could still jump the ball better than an awesome player, by putting comparatively (to him and others like him) very little time in. That could never happen with kicking as it takes years of training (or extreme talent) to master.

Saying that jumping with a full cue takes more skill is like saying saying driving a model T takes more skill than driving a modern car. No, it simply takes more effort and depending on the cue being used may even be near impossible. True. You need real skill, like I said. No 5 minute lesson for that.

The skill lies in how well you can control the cue ball not in the limitation imposed by the equipment.
Is there a higher level of jump-cue skill? Absolutely, most people can only get over a ball and make the object ball, maybe draw the cueball a little. Cueball control is pretty much non-existant for these players, and forget all about sidespin etc. I do think that at a certain point equipment can ruin a game. Why don't the olympic shooting competitions have scoped rifles, for instance? Would you allow jump cues in one-pocket? I don't see why you shouldn't, based on how you argue for it in other pool games. Imagine being near frozen to a ball and then pulling out a "Dr. Popper" to jump over it and make a ball? Spectacular, hmm?

Snooker does not allow jump shots of any kind (that are deemed intentional). There are many reasons why, mostly to do with the UK being extremely conservative, but one that is frequently overlooked is how easy it is to pull off jump shots in snooker. The heavy cloth and slate, combined with light balls, makes jumping a breeze, no jump cue needed. Of course the pockets are tight, but getting out of many snookers is extremely simple. It would change the whole nature of the game and remove many of the most skilled aspects of it, and the people in charge know it.
 
Last edited:
Is there a higher level of jump-cue skill? Absolutely, most people can only get over a ball and make the object ball, maybe draw the cueball a little. Cueball control is pretty much non-existant for these players, and forget all about sidespin etc. I do think that at a certain point equipment can ruin a game. Why don't the olympic shooting competitions have scoped rifles, for instance? Would you allow jump cues in one-pocket? I don't see why you shouldn't, based on how you argue for it in other pool games. Imagine being near frozen to a ball and then pulling out a "Dr. Popper" to jump over it and make a ball? Spectacular, hmm?

Snooker does not allow jump shots of any kind (that are deemed intentional). There are many reasons why, mostly to do with the UK being extremely conservative, but one that is frequently overlooked is how easy it is to pull off jump shots in snooker. The heavy cloth and slate, combined with light balls, makes jumping a breeze, no jump cue needed. Of course the pockets are tight, but getting out of many snookers is extremely simple. It would change the whole nature of the game and remove many of the most skilled aspects of it, and the people in charge know it.

Jump cues are allowed in one pocket. I use them when playing one pocket.

I will answer the rest of your comments later when I am at a computer
 
Last edited:
You visited my poolroom a few times or at least once with McChesney Robin in Richmond Va. I did host many ...

That's another huge reason I don't like the shot. Couldn't stand anybody pounding on my pool tables constantly. If they wanted to practice jumping I sent them down to my competitor and let them beat up their tables and put holes in the walls :smile:

The shot needs to be eliminated imo

Hope you are well Robin ...

The Playing Field?
 
Jb

JB is owning each and every single ignorant fool in this thread.

OK I will bite

Care to explain your statement ?

I can see both sides having valid points.

Personally I don't want to play on any table that been hammered to death.

Masse French word for Hammer.

Every time I jump masse or even hit the cue ball on or for a break it leave a white or friction mark on the table .......................................
 
OK I will bite

Care to explain your statement ?

I can see both sides having valid points.

Personally I don't want to play on any table that been hammered to death.

Masse French word for Hammer.

Every time I jump masse or even hit the cue ball on or for a break it leave a white or friction mark on the table .......................................

Nothing to bite.

If you want to know why I am okay with jump cues then just read all of Bartons posts. I can't say it any better.
 
A happy medium I've considered is allowing a jump cue on the first shot of an inning or on the shot after the break. As a response to a safety, I could live with the jump, but I don't think a player who hooks himself through poor position play should be permitted to play through the air.

Fair enough.

KMRUNOUT
 
Actually it was the Texas Express tour that brought in the 41" rule.

Your answers:

Jumping too easy, no. There is no instance when jumping is too easy because it is still a shooter using an inert object to make the ball move.

Well that's like your opinion, man, but I have to disagree. Like I've said I can teach about anyone of moderate skill how to easily jump balls and make clean hits on an object ball in probably ten or fifteen minutes. It takes longer to get them to learn how to make an effective bridge ffs.

The reason jump cues were regulated is because some of the early ones were damaging to the other equipment and that is against the rules.

Um sorry but that's not true. Damage to the equipment may have been one of the arguments for the 40" rule, but the primary point was always that the super short cues took too much of the skill out of the shot.

Besides, someone who wants to seriously say that a 40" jump cue does less 'damage' to the balls, cloth, or table than a 16" jump cue is pretty much nuts. That doesn't pass the smell test at all.

2. Are we at that point? No. For nearly 20 years jump cues in the current form have been a part of pool worldwide and it is only here in America where people debate it. The rest of the world which has the bulk of better players has accepted them as part of the sport and mastered their use to round out their skills. Only in America do some people cling to some outdated notion that pool would better if it were like in the 40s,50s,60s,70s,80s etc....

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

Sorry but this is false as well. For sure lots of top players in the international community are good with jump cues and they are in use in lots of tournaments, but it's hardly an issue that isn't debated. Hell the Brits banned jumping altogether from snooker in like 1959 (and that game isn't exactly struggling). In fact two international players in Appleton and Shaw are pretty clearly anti-jump cue, because I just saw them write about it on Facebook. Immonen too, I believe.

As for the whole 20 years thing, or whatever the actual timing is, longevity really has no bearing on the discussion. Lots of things have been in various sports for a long time and then been regulated out. Anchored putting and square grooves in golf were around for far longer than jump cues, but now both have been banned (or will be in 2016). There are countless examples in other sports too, including aluminum bats vs. wood, polyester vs. natural gut strings for tennis rackets, heated blades for ice skates, 'tacky' gloves in the NFL, active suspensions in Formula One, the list goes on and on. Debates about whether a new technology makes a sport better or worse go on all the time, and there are some pretty clear winners and losers for them all, and a lot of nuance in the decisions involved.

When it comes to pool I guess what's needed is some kind of metric whereby the 'ease of use' of something like jump cues needs to be measured by some kind of criteria that are beyond just the opinion of people who may or may not have a vested interest in the result. As for what that might be that's probably a whole other discussion, but I for one would submit that the ease of teaching the skill to someone is a big part of it, and it's pretty hard to argue that it doesn't take longer to kick -- and especially to kick effectively-- than it does to learn how to jump. I also think the difficulty rating for getting a good result out of a random snooker is a lower with jumping over kicking the vast majority of the time. Again it's just like my opinion, but together those are two things that put me pretty squarely against the jumpers.
 
Last edited:
JB is owning each and every single ignorant fool in this thread.


Are you referring to me as ignorant?

Well ... he doesn't own me if that makes you feel any better

Anything I've said is my opinion of decades of playing better than average pool

The jump shot should be banned period. Exactly like in snooker.

Going airborne to evade another ball is evident of a weaker player looking for an easy way out. Learn to use the rails if you're in trouble

JMO sir. Have a nice day ...
 
Anyone who wants to have a kicking vs jumping debate on an actual pool table is invited. Once again they are different skills. And it is only in the past 20 years that kicking has been really necessary to a,higher degree in pool also due to the one foul ball in hand rules.

So in the same time that jump cues and jumping became so prevalent and added many more great shots to the sport so too did kicking evolve for players around,the world to the point that decent b players are knowledgeable about kicking systems and have decent kicking skills.

And,my opinion also comes from decades of better than average pool as well as having been deeply involved with one of the most famous jump cue brands.

I didn't sell gimmicks. I sell pool cues that are used to make skill shots. And everyone on the forum has action to try and prove otherwise.





Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk
 
And,my opinion also comes from decades of better than average pool as well as having been deeply involved with one of the most famous jump cue brands.

I didn't sell gimmicks. I sell pool cues that are used to make skill shots. And everyone on the forum has action to try and prove otherwise.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


John,

Using my language of 'decades of better than average pool' seems to me as an indirect invitation. Are you inviting me, as you do with Lou, to play pool? I do still enjoy OnePocket and 9ball. I'm not interested in you showing me the differences in kicking and jumping. But I'm an older player that still enjoys gaming on the pool table. If that's your intent please by all means let me know and I'll see if I can oblige

But my main intent here is asking ... do you now sell the jump cue again? One of my posts you answered that you didn't sell them anymore. But above you use present tense

Confused I am but not about this jump cue scenario. It should be banned imo
 
Are you referring to me as ignorant?

Well ... he doesn't own me if that makes you feel any better

Anything I've said is my opinion of decades of playing better than average pool

The jump shot should be banned period. Exactly like in snooker.

Going airborne to evade another ball is evident of a weaker player looking for an easy way out. Learn to use the rails if you're in trouble

JMO sir. Have a nice day ...

Not just you, but yes.

It's people like you with your "get off my lawn" mentality that keep this game in the stone ages.

As it's already been pointed out before, a player will choose to kick or jump based on which will yield the best result. Just because a player chooses to jump doesn't mean they don't know how to kick. You, and others are seriously overselling the difficulty of kicking. It's not hard.
 
Think Mike Zuglan has it correct on the Joss Northeast Tour. You can jump as long as you use your full length cue. As you can only bring two cues to the table, it eliminates the specialty lightweight cues. If you want one handy, you must break or play with it!!! Jumping is a skill set just as kicking is. Took me a long, long time to try to learn the diamond system. Took one hour to use a jump cue. Now I can not use it correctly all the time but..... Given the state of the game, I'd ban all jump shots. All of them full cue or not. Lets have the young players learn to kick. Might save the game of three cushion billiards. JMHO.

Lyn
 
Soon we will have a golf bag

You know, the greatest thing I loved about pool is it was true to its original game.... now I know there are reasonable improvements in cloth and rubber rails to true the playing area but,,,,,,balls are getting to good and now the jump cues... we are seriously loosing a comparison to our former greats that didn't have the technical options...take a look at golf, you cannot compare records anymore .... let's try to stabilize this game for future generations. ...please
If we don't,,,,, someday a pool player will be using a number 7 cue to play a shot

What is true is........jump cues are great for TV and drama..

I'm sounding old, aren't i?
 
Last edited:
Back
Top