Get rid of jump cues for Mosconi Cup
- Thread starter hang-the-9
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Lou,
Agree wholeheartedly with you. Ban them damn short sticks!!!! However, I choose not to ban jumping balls if the player uses one of the two cues allowed at the table. One playing cue. One break cue. If you can master the technique of jumping with a regular full cue, you deserve to be rewarded just as a different player is rewarded for learning and practicing kicking at a ball with a system.
Full disclosure, yeah, I can jump with a shorty and I do from time to time. Says so in my signature!
Lyn
I agree Lyn -- if you can jump with your playing stick, that is fine.
A short jump stick makes it too easy and constitutes technology doping -- they are performance enhancing and against the spirit of the sport. Jump cues are no different than self-correcting golf balls, the LZR Racer full-body swim suit, or the spaghetti strung tennis racket.
Lou Figueroa
The original intent? Were you there when pool was invented? I mean they used to play with maces
This
Wouldn't those be closer to the "original intent"?
Pool has a governing body, the World Pool Association. You know those asians that keep kicking everyone's ass? They all use WPA rules. You know those Europeans that kick everyone's ass? They all use WPA rules.
You know those Americans that keep losing in the big events? They play by whatever rules any promoter hands them because NO ONE IN THE USA follows the WPA rules.
That's the real problem. While we argue about jump cues the matter has been settled for 20 years and the rest of the world just accepts them as the tool they are and uses them in highly skilled ways to win more than we do.
Well they got to have something thier better than Americans at so it might as well be a third tier sport
I wouldn't expect you to understand why pool should take the USGA approach it's something only traditionalists understand and certainly the WPA does not fall in that line either
1
The real issue isn't the jump cue. It's the use of resin and phenolic tips on jump cues. The advocates for the jump cue seem to preach that the cue doesn't make the shot for them, and that there is some form of skill to executing a jump shot with the modern jump stick. I'm old enough to remember jump/break cues like the first ones made by Falcon and Mace. They had either a Triangle or a Water Buffalo tip on them. There was a range that you could effectively jump the blocking ball - somewhere between 12-18" away, you could jump a full ball. When the Bunjee Jumper came out with the phenolic tip, jumping became too easy. You didn't have to overcome compression of the cue tip. With a playing cue, or the old school leather tipped jump cue, you had to hit the ball hard enough to compress the leather, and then bounce the ball off the slate. With the phenolic tips, the front end of the shaft just gets out of the way, as there is no compression that you need to overcome. What that also does is allows you to stroke the cueball much softer, and still attain airborne status. Now you can spin the ball, or jump masse, because you no longer need the same force on the shot.
Based on the above facts, it is purely the phenolic/resin tip that has allowed jumping to become this so called "skill" that everyone keeps talking about. There are leather tips that are treated to be as hard as the phenolics now. You can also use thin CA super glue to make a tip rock hard. Jump cues have been around since the 90s. We never saw their rampant use until they had the phenolic tips. Once the phenolic tips came out, that magic range of 12-18" became anywhere from 3-24". If making one simple change to a "cue" can result in such a dramatic increase in functionality, it's the equipment, and not the skill of the player.
Get rid of tips with a hardness over 75D on the Rockwell scale, and we'd see a drastic decline in those "skills" people keep mentioning.
Based on the above facts, it is purely the phenolic/resin tip that has allowed jumping to become this so called "skill" that everyone keeps talking about. There are leather tips that are treated to be as hard as the phenolics now. You can also use thin CA super glue to make a tip rock hard. Jump cues have been around since the 90s. We never saw their rampant use until they had the phenolic tips. Once the phenolic tips came out, that magic range of 12-18" became anywhere from 3-24". If making one simple change to a "cue" can result in such a dramatic increase in functionality, it's the equipment, and not the skill of the player.
Get rid of tips with a hardness over 75D on the Rockwell scale, and we'd see a drastic decline in those "skills" people keep mentioning.
It seems to me that the "it's just a tool" (or not) argument is missing the point. Anyone can invent lots of tools to make pool easier. Laser guided cues, computer aided aiming, iron willie,... Heck, a pool playing robot is not out of the question. At some point everyone is going to agree that we are no longer playing pool they way we want it to be played.
So the argument is really "Does this item make pool a better game or not?"
So the argument is really "Does this item make pool a better game or not?"
Banks
Banned
"EXCESSIVE CELEBRATION... 15 YARD PENALTY AT KICKOFF!":wink:
Thanks for pinning it all on the Bunjee Jumper. I guess I did my job right if people think the introduction of the Bunjee Jumper brand was what made jumping easier.
Actually the Bunjee was introduced at the VNEA Nationals in 1999. Well after the introduction of jump cues in the 80s and jump rods in the early 90s and phenolic tips in the early 90s. Tom Rossman was running around selling a cue called the Happy Hopper made by Jacoby. I saw him sell about 25 of them in five minutes after a short demonstration. At that time I was selling jump cues in my booth as a favor to Franz Hauber in Germany. I would take 4 or 5 of them over and when people would ask I would hand them one and tell them to go try it. I didn't instruct anyone, I didn't even own one of them.
But when I saw Tom do his thing I realized that there was actually a market for them. So the next year I had 500 of them made in Taiwan and 50 of them went to Franz for his help developing them. 50 went to a friend in Germany. 400 went to the VNEA and BCA Nationals.
I had to learn to use that style of jump cue. I spent several weeks developing a routine that demonstrated shots ranging from very easy to fairly difficult. When I got to the VNEA I quickly found out that I could NOT simply hand a person a jump cue and expect them to jump with it. I had to learn to teach them how to jump.
Yes hard tips make it easier to jump, that's the point. Hard tips, stiffer taper, harder wood and lighter weight all contribute to making the jump shot easier to do. Just like tips+chalk make applying spin easier. So of course this tool was developed to make the act of jumping easier. It went from nearly impossible and very limited to accessible.
Chalk did the exact same thing. Prior to chalk tips did the same thing to a limited degree. Chalk vastly expanded the range of possible shots, it made the application of spin easier. But because chalk was introduced long before any of us were born we simply accept it.
Again, referring to my previous example, just because chalk makes a force draw possible doesn't mean I can do it consistently or at all just because I use chalk.
Yes if you want to go around with a durometer and measure the hardness of everyone's tips then you could reduce the amount of possible shots. Then the players would simply be making shots according to their level of skill and what's possible.
However you are wrong that it's only the tip. As most of us know one can jump with a shaft only and a regular leather tip as close as 1mm. This is because the weight displacement of a shaft being lighter than a cue ball allows for the cueball to move without being trapped. So if you barred hard tips then makers would simply build 40" cues that weigh less than the ball. In fact such cues are currently on the market. They represent a category I call ultra-lights and are more geared towards simply making the ball jump forgoing the control that cues more like the Bunjee Jumper give to the player.
We should reward innovation in this case and not punish it. Either ban jumping altogether or allow jump cues but stop trying to hinder the use of a tool which in fact requires a skill to to use.
Then every cue maker that claims to build a "better" cue is against the spirit of the sport. What spirit? You all keep talking about this yet you use equipment that has EVOLVED to the present state over several hundred years. Why isn't the spirit such that maces were supposed to be the equipment used?
Jump cues are very different. They don't take the shot for you. They are simply a tool that makes one aspect of the game possible like chalk made spin shots possible.
Pool should do what pool decides to do. It's already fractured enough with every TD everywhere deciding to change the rules as they like.
The WPA is the closest thing we have to a world body and it should be respected. But most American players and promoters don't even know what it does much less show respect.
JB....you are an intelligent and vigorous poster who makes a good case...
...but your posts could be used to defend the 'scoop shot' also.
The game should have parameters or it becomes a joke...
...I feel jump cues should be outside those parameters.
Leave bouncing a ball to the NBA
...but your posts could be used to defend the 'scoop shot' also.
The game should have parameters or it becomes a joke...
...I feel jump cues should be outside those parameters.
Leave bouncing a ball to the NBA
Find me ONE that has a standard leather tip. No Samsaras or other modified leather tips.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8rvRHZ1sZo
Larry Nevel with the X breaker - jump version, G10 tip. Sorry, but this is retarded. Since when is 1mm from FROZEN not a good safe??
I've had this debate with people before. I put a phenolic tip on a 14oz sneaky pete, and an Elkmaster on a Bunjee jumper. The weight and taper had nothing to do with which cue jumped better. The sneaky pete won on the majority of jump shots. In fact, a house cue without a tip outperformed the Bunjee with an Elkmaster on long jump shots. So it's DEFINITELY the tip. Argue all you want.
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Per your logic, the LZR racer full-body suit is the evolution of the old tank top and long-shorts swim suit. And a set-correcting golf ball is the evolution of the wood ball and fetherie. But if equipment/technology make the sport too easy, it gets banned.
So should jump cues.
Lou Figueroa
Is the RAZR suit available to all competitors? Yes it is.
Does it do the swimming? No it doesnt.
A self-correcting ball on the other hand alters the shot after the ball was struck. That should not be allowed.
Exactly my point.
If the scoop shot wasn't a foul then it should be allowed. But it has been proven that it is a foul every time so everyone is fine with it being barred. Everyone that adheres to most standard rules that is.JB....you are an intelligent and vigorous poster who makes a good case...
...but your posts could be used to defend the 'scoop shot' also.
The game should have parameters or it becomes a joke...
...I feel jump cues should be outside those parameters.
Leave bouncing a ball to the NBA
I will get one and show you. Doesn't matter because you missed the point. If the 1mm jump was gone because of a forced switch to 100% "regular" leather tips then the 3mm shot would be there all day.
Dude you have no shot here. It isn't all tip and even it were so what? The same equipment is available to all competitors.
A 1mm safety is a great safe against all but most skilled jumpers with a jump cue. If this comes up in a game 99% of people who try it will fail and that includes all the pros. You and everyone here will bet against Larry at $100 an attempt with a 10 attempt minimum. It's not even a 50% shot for the very best players.
Also my point. They happily allow performance shafts which promise more accuracy and spin but complain about jump cues. Or break cues specifically engineered to transfer mote power to cue ball are a-ok.
Tips which promise better performance, no problem.
Chalk which promises to reduce miscues....perfectly fine.
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JB, I take anything you say regarding jump cues, or the number of legal cues we should have, with a grain of salt. You sold jump cues. You sell cue cases. I'm guessing you would love us to have 13 cues in our case. It would look like a golf bag. I could tip several cues, One could be my power draw cue. One could be my center ball cue. Another could be my extreme spin cue. I could get a caddy.....
2 cues max should be the rule. Minimum length 52". Minimum weight 12oz. I think for a cue to be defined as a cue, it needs to perform all of the shots necessary to play the game. And once you shoot the first ball of the rack with a cue, that's the cue you play the rack with. If kicking is as easy as people keep saying it is, there's no need for jump cues. After all, kicking is easier. You've even shown examples. Ban the jumper, because anyone can learn to kick in 30 minutes. Or an hour.
2 cues max should be the rule. Minimum length 52". Minimum weight 12oz. I think for a cue to be defined as a cue, it needs to perform all of the shots necessary to play the game. And once you shoot the first ball of the rack with a cue, that's the cue you play the rack with. If kicking is as easy as people keep saying it is, there's no need for jump cues. After all, kicking is easier. You've even shown examples. Ban the jumper, because anyone can learn to kick in 30 minutes. Or an hour.
My wife is a competitive swimmer. She wore the RZR suit at a meet a few years ago before they were banned from competition. She swam record times for her age group, and posted times that were near what she would do when she was in university, and she was 39 at the time. The suits are ridiculously expensive, and only last a few races. She said they were an unfair advantage against people who either couldn't fit in them (they aren't one size fits all), or couldn't afford them. She's gone back to a faster suit, but not quite as fast as the RZR.
There were drivers that manufacturers made that had a COR of .860. The PGA/USGA tested them, and banned them from competition. They were allowing for longer drives for golfers. Professionals were getting more distance than ever before.
There was a new hockey puck design that had raised dimples on the flats, near the edges. It made for smoother passes and less tumbling pucks. It also increased the speed of shots by about 10%. The design was rejected by the NHL, as they were concerned about maintaining the integrity of the game.
Sometimes, things get rejected to maintain the integrity of the game. Am I a fan of the jump shot? There are times when jumping the cueball can be used to play shape. I think that a playing cue is a playing cue. Unless you've lost a tip, or something has happened to your cue, you should play with one cue. If you want to carry a break cue, so that your playing cue doesn't absorb punishment, then use a break cue. After that, I see no needs for shot specific cues. If you can't make the shot with your player, learn how, or get a different cue that suits your playing ability. Sacrifices are made in every single sport, with regards to equipment. Pool should be no different.
Well if you are already dismissing any point I make just because I sold jump cues then I guess all I can do is continue to address any statements you make and correct you when you make incorrect statements.
I have played entire sets with only the jump cue and won them. I understand you want to change the rules to suit your bias but in fact you are not in a position to do so. The question was settled 20 years ago.
Kicking is a different skill just like masse' is a skill. Jumping, kicking and masse' shots are all skills that good players practice and master as best they can or desire to.
As a maker of equipment I don't care if a player has as many cues as they want to carry. No one would be forcing you to bring anything but one cue to a match if you felt that was all you needed. I build cases to satisfy my customer's desires and it is up to them to comply with whatever rules they play under.
As a player I draw the line at whether the cue does the work or the player does the work. For jump cues the player does the work. No jump cue jumps balls by itself. The shooter has to decide on the angle, the speed and the spin. A successful shot is not guaranteed simply because a player has a jump cue in their hands.
No more than a successful draw shot is guaranteed just because I have "the best" leather tip covered in the super chalk.