Get rid of jump cues for Mosconi Cup
- Thread starter hang-the-9
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Nope, not even close. Pros execute very skilled jump shots with jump cues and amateurs less so but still with skill.
Amateurs also kick wildly and hope for the best and sometimes it works out.
Just because you don't like jump cues doesn't mean you get to decide if they are allowed in pool. That question was settled 20 years ago, move on.
Then Shane and all the pro players who think the same way should lobby the WPA to have them removed. I think Shane is wrong on this one. But then he generally follows whatever Earl Strickland thinks. Earl used a jump cue when he was with cuetec. He had a 54" cue that looked identical to his playing cue. When he had a jump shot he would take that cue and use it. The viewing public never knew that he was using a shorter cue.
Again it's not about not knowing how to kick.
https://youtu.be/awQI23TiHkk
In this video above Ko kicks and jumps accurately.
Seriously? You don't think that chalk and phenolic balls and worsted cloth are bigger equipment changes?
Volcanized rubber?
Billiard sports have been evolving for hundreds of years. The equipment used and the equipment needed has evolved as well.
Jump cues were created by PROFESSIONAL players to fill a need imposed by the rules of the games played. They do no harm to the game and actually add to it by adding a plethora of new shots. Shots that are tough anyway but even tougher when under the pressure of a professional match.
Add 4 more pockets to the tables. That would create a plethora of new shots as well. Change the shape of the table as well.....oh, wait. Can't do that. Then CTE wouldn't work.
red herring much? Deflect from the point much.
You like to argue as much as I do. Only I use experience and facts. For example the fact that I once owned more than 20 brands of jump cue. And I had about 10 shafts for the bunjee with various types of tips on them for testing. As well I owned many different cueballs.
I bet you didn't know that different cueballs jump differently.
That's right. While some of you are crying about jump cues you don't even realize that the equipment is a handicap. I can switch out the cue ball and make you look foolish trying to jump with a jump cue until you realize you need to adjust.
It's also harder to jump on thinner slate. I can put you on a connelly with 2" slate and a Meucci and you will look the jump champion of the world and if I switch you to a barbox with 3/4" slate you will look like an APA 1 trying to jump.
Jump cues provide the player with a relatively consistent performance expectation across all table types and cue ball types. They are the equalizer that allows SKILL to be the main factor in the jump shot. Just like CHALK allows SKILL to be the main factor in playing position.
The beauty of the game, IMO is in the simplicity of the equipment. Basically a tapered wooden stick and some balls and a table. It's your skill and imagination that do the work. We don't need electric carts to carry us around, no subservient slave to carry our dozens of cues etc. Any kid can pick up a cue for 100 dollars, and in a matter of time become a contender, or at least not have his equipment hold him back. I realize that an extra 80-100 bucks for a jump cue won't make that big of an impact financially for most people, my objection lies mostly in that it's against the spirit of the sport. It's a no-nonsense sport where your talent and hard work is what does the job, not 50 different pieces of equipment.
Looking at some of the rifle shooting sports etc, the equipment is so specialized it's got nothing to do with shooting at all, anymore. You can't even tell that they are using rifles sometimes. And the goggles with an eye patch, clothes that tighten up to give you support etc..No offense to people who compete at these sports, but I think it's not really interesting when you have to have 50 pieces of equipment to be competitive. That's why they have some restrictions on most of the different types of competition, and also why I competed at pistol shooting which was limited to iron sights, no compensators, pretty much "stock" pistols. I like the idea that your talent should be the determinant factor in a competition, not how much you spend.
I'd hate for pool to become some sort of unrecognizable ball bouncing competition in the future, with walls instead of rails and basketball hoops instead of pockets... I like that it is an old game (among the oldest). Even though we no longer use maces or play on the lawn, you can still recognize most of the equipment used as pretty much the same 100 years back, or more. I think that is a plus and not a minus for the sport. It is also a plus that it can be a laid back game as well as a highly competitive one, with pretty much the same equipment and that I can wear ordinary, stylish clothes while playing it, instead of looking like a psychedelic clown (unless I choose to).
This is why I dislike gimmick equipment.
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Jump cues have been part of the game for 20+ years now. They haven't hurt the game in any way and have actually become some of the most exciting pressure shots in pool.
I bet if you asked Luke Riches about jump cues he would think back to all the pressure moments where a player pulled off a tough jump shot and the crowd went wild and say no way would they ever consider banning the jump cue.
If it was a gimmick I would agree with you. But it is not. The jump cue is no different from chalk and no different from an ordinary cue. It is a piece of equipment engineered for one type of shot but which does not take that shot. No different than chalk being engineered to allow the shooter to add spin, greatly increasing the control possible for the cue ball. Chalk doesn't draw the ball table length precisely into a 3" window for perfect shape, the shooter does that, chalk only makes it possible.
A jump cue doesn't jump precisely over a blocking ball 4" away into a 6" space with just the right amount of draw to pocket the ball and draw back for shape. The shooter does that. The cue only makes it possible.
You know nothing about what I know regarding jump cues. I've owned the following:
Chilton Flying eagle
Bunjee Jumper
Predator Air
Tiger IceBreaker (j/b)
Sledgehammer
Stinger
Stealth AirTime (current jump cue)
PoolGods Jump Cue (current league jumper - fits in standard jump pocket)
Piccone Jump Cue
Poison VX jumper
Falcon J/B
Mace J/B
I helped design the Falcon TNT jump/break cue - feel free to ask Jim Wych, if you're that connected in the industry.
I've used all of them, and am quite good with a jump cue. And I would do away with jump cues in a heartbeat, if I had my way. The reason I learned to use them and play with them is that the league and tournaments I have played in allowed their use. So I'm handicapping myself by not having one, or using one, because everyone else has them. I find it comical that 95% of the players I play a safety on go for the short stick EVERY TIME. I look to see if there's a good kick at the ball first. And jump if necessary, as I am penalizing the team I play on if I don't give my best effort. But I would ban the short stick in a heartbeat. I think it's a crutch, and takes away from developing multi rail kicking ability. Everyone here has cited the single rail kick vs the jump. No one has mentioned 3 and 4 rail kicks. Or even 2 rail kicks. And most times, a single rail kick isn't available on a decent safety. What the jump cue has created is lack of knowledge. No one needs to know multi rail kick shots anymore. Just learn jumps and single rail kicks. Also, on single rail kicks, the 50% mark (angle in = angle out) has always been available. What if that spot is blocked? Try telling that APA 2 that they need to hit lower on the side rail with running english to pocket the ball. "Coach, how much english?" Oh, and make sure to tell them that speed affects the angle at which the kick comes off the rail.
Anyone that says kicking is easier than jumping needs to put on a hockey helmet before leaving their house to get on the short bus...
The phenolic tip has all but eliminated the need for any of the above knowledge.
The measles ball is lighter than a standard cueball in an Aramith set. It jumps really well. An oversized bar ball doesn't jump that well at all, because of the increased weight, and the chunk of metal in the middle. Snooker balls jump really well. A golf ball jumps like a superball.
How did I do?
Don't be so dense.
A C player with $8 and a decent memory could buy Tor's kicking system and be kicking like an A player in a week.
Anybody with a little money can buy a book on any pool game and read it but doesn't mean he can translate it to the table. Reading a book doesn't make it so. You have to SEE the triangles to kick well. Much easier said than done.
I would bet a million dollars you haven't spent 1/4 of the time I have with this subject. Of course we can't prove it and you'd just claim you know everything about everything anyway.
You helped "design" a jump cue? Gee after jump cues were already on the market long before Falcon put a phenolic tip on one? They needed your help? But this does bring up an interesting point.....you just said you don't give anything I say any weight because I sold jump cues and here you are bragging about your involvement in designing them for Falcon. Doesn't that invalidate your comments as well? No, of course not, because.....well I don't really follow the logic here.
Anyway, again, Shawn, the point is that the question of allowing and regulating jump cues was decided 20 years ago. Unless you're willing to get yourself on the rules committee at the WPA and then campaign for barring them they are here to stay.
So your feelings on them don't matter. As for what you know...well since I have had to correct you several times on points of fact I conclude that you don't really know all that much about the history of jump cues. Yes, you have probably owned a bunch of them which I find curious but I am fairly sure that you didn't own them for research and development purposes like I did. Which was in service to the fact that I "sold" jump cues and my natural curiosity when I sell things to know all I can about the items I sell.
You didn't do well at all. Which bar table balls jump easier? Which brands of cueballs jump easier? I had a chart at one time and I would take them around to shows to teach people that it's not all cue.
You're 100% wrong about the phenolic tip eliminating the need to judge speed, angle, and spin.
If you can't see that then I have some shots to bet on which I am sure you won't succeed at. If you think the tip does all the work then let's bet on ten shots and see if you can do them with no practice. I can't.
Did God consult you when He wrote the 10 commandments? I'm guessing He did, based on any post that you feel like a subject matter expert.
You're the expert on cases. Stick to that. I've seen you play. Perhaps you should have used a jump cue for the entire match against Lou. Maybe it was those jump masses that caused you to have that "cue up in the air off to the left" follow through....
Johnny, any time you want to have a jump off, let's do it. I get to use an "off the shelf" jump cue, and I'll give you the exact same cue with a rubber tip (50A hardness). Because the tip does nothing for the performance, right? How much do you want to bet?
Maybe the Mosconi Cup team should chip in a few bucks each, and they'll outkick the Euros next year. $8, right? Heck, you should buy it for them!
Speaking of dense, there was this game long before Tor was born, called 3 cushion billiards. You learn to number the rails if you play 3 cushion. It has appeared in a bunch of 3C books, and Robert Byrne also referred to it in his books as well.
Perhaps JB can chime in on the diamond system, as he has probably researched (or invented it) it FAR MORE than anyone on the planet, when he started making cases for 3C cues.
More deflection. When you can't win on facts you go straight to insults.
There are only a few subjects which I am a factual expert on. Cue cases and jump cues are two that am. So in this particular debate, when it comes down to the facts I am on very solid ground.
I have never said that a phenolic tip or a super hard tip isn't important. I said there are other factors as well that go into making a good jump cue. Of course a hard tip is going to improve the jumpability of any cue. But I can make a jump cue with a phenolic tip that doesn't jump very well at all.
I can also make a jump cue with a pure leather tip on it that jumps almost as good as a stock Bunjee jumper. An untreated tip. Want to bet against me on that?
Maybe they should. I guess all the times the USA won they did outkick the Euros right? The European team also had plenty of great jump shots in the Mosconi Cup.
Maybe what should happen is you should stop whining about jump cues. You seem to have purchased so many of them and yet don't seem to understand how to use any of them. Maybe folks like you should stop looking for a magic bullet and work on your skills instead. You don't need 10 jump cues, you just need to practice.
No, it's just incredibly easy.