Get rid of jump cues for Mosconi Cup

[JB Cases]

No JB you have not you brought up mace cues , never used in modern games nor were cues with no chalk ,, since the era of 14-1 8 ball and 9 ball thier as been no changes to the equiptment that has dramatily changed the art of pocketing balls period

1

Jesus, i wish people would learn to read. Not doing your research for you, go through the thread.

But for the sake of argument, so what if your right and jump cues are the only significant change in pool in the past 100 years.

You were alive to see it.

That's right, perhaps the last evolution for pool has occurred which gives a human the possibility to control the cue ball in the most ways known to man and you get to be a part of it's birth. In 50 years people will be using jump cues as if they have always been there.

No one will care that there were those who whined about them. They will simply marvel at the shots performed with them the way people marvel at shots performed due to CHALK making them possible without crying about how chalk is not fair.

 

[JB Cases]

Rules change ;-)

Lou Figueroa

This one won't.

You can whine all you want to but jump cues are an accepted part of the game all over the world in pocket billiards and have been for more than 20 years.

Jump cues have actually been around longer than that, more like 30-35 years. I made my own jump handle in the late 80s. They were formally regulated in the mid 90s into most rulesets.

 

[one stroke]

The WPA was formed by the BCA and the EPBF.

The rules for the jump cue were created by the Texas Express Pool Tour and adopted by the BCA and subsequently by the WPA.

Both the BCA and the WPA debated the question of jump cues and allowed them under the specifications and rules that stand today and have stood for 20+ years.

Earl used a disguised "jump cue" for 20 years and uses a "normal" one now. Shane parrots Earl in all things. The jump cue has made both of them a lot of money over the years.

Pays to know your history.

Yes it does so you might want to tell them they printed this wrong

The World Pool-Billiard Association (WPA) is the international governing body for pocket billiards. The group was formed in Germany in November of 1987, as a result of the efforts of the European Pocket Billiard Federation. The Asian Pocket Billiard Union (APBU) was formed shortly after, and became the second member of the WPA. North America became the third member in 1990

1

 

[JB Cases]

At one time, the cue tip rule specifically said "compressible material", and referenced leather. After the Bunjee and Sledgehammer came out, and the WPA was petitioned, they changed the rules to accommodate the tip. Now it reads "pliable" material. I have no clue in which world phenolic is considered "pliable". Even chemically treated leather isn't pliable. Pliable = easily bent; flexible. So, how phenolic or treated leather meets that specification boggles my mind. Apparently, it slides in under the loophole of "not damaging the cueball", I guess?

You really don't like to have facts as your foundation do you?

No one petitioned the WPA about this. I know I didn't and I was the OWNER of the Bunjee Brand. I am 99.99% sure that Mike Gulyassy didn't petition them either. And if he had I am 99.99% sure that the WPA would NOT have changed the rules to accommodate a manufacturer and especially not tiny ones like Mike and myself.

WPA rule: 17. Cue Sticks
Cue Sticks used at WPA competitions should comply with the following
during play at table:

Length of Cue: 40 inches [1.016 m] minimum / No Maximum
Weight of Cue: No minimum / 25 oz. [708.75 gm] maximum
Width of Tip: No minimum / 14mm maximum

The cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the addressed ball. The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material that extends the natural line of the shaft end of the cue and contacts the cue ball when the shot is executed..

The ferrule of the cue stick, if of a metal material, may not be more than 1 inch [2.54 cm] in length.

Pliable:

pli·a·ble
ˈplīəb(ə)l/
adjective
1.
easily bent; flexible.
"quality leather is pliable and will not crack"
synonyms: flexible, pliant, bendable, elastic, supple, malleable, workable, plastic, springy, ductile; informalbendy
"leather is pliable"
2.
easily influenced.
"pliable teenage minds"
synonyms: malleable, impressionable, flexible, adaptable, pliant, compliant, biddable, tractable, yielding, amenable, susceptible, suggestible, persuadable, manipulable, receptive
"pliable teenage minds"

While leather cue tips are compressible they are not EASILY compressible and thus even they do not meet the first definition of pliable. They do meet the second definition as do phenolic tips and composite tips.

As I have said before the it is entirely possible to make jump cues with leather tips that are not artificially hardened with any chemical which have nearly the jumpability of any phenolic tip. So making the tip out to be the villain here is simply silly. Yes a hard tip makes the actual jumping part easier, just like chalk makes the spinning part easier. But the actual shotmaking, the amount of force, the angle used, the judgement, the spin applied, that's ALL skill on the part of the shooter.

And the success of the shot depends far more on that than the tip. The tip only means that the shot is possible as opposed to impossible.

Just like a table length draw shot without chalk is IMPOSSIBLE. Yet if you draw your rock 8.7 feet into a 3" window for perfect shape you don't want me screaming that it's all chalk and not you.

Maufacturers comply with the rules. We don't make them. Isn't that evident in your own example of Speedo's razr suits being banned from swimming? If the world's largest maker of swimsuits can't get the rules to allow their amazing suits in competition then what makes you think a teeny pair of jump cue makers can do to influence the rule makers at the WPA/BCA/Texas Express?

Unless you have evidence of this alleged petitioning and timeline showing a change soon afterward? Bueller? Bueller?????

 

[lfigueroa]

This one won't.

You can whine all you want to but jump cues are an accepted part of the game all over the world in pocket billiards and have been for more than 20 years.

Jump cues have actually been around longer than that, more like 30-35 years. I made my own jump handle in the late 80s. They were formally regulated in the mid 90s into most rulesets.

Doesn't matter how long they've been around -- rules and equipment change.

Now we have measles CBs instead of dots; Aramith and Cyclop balls instead of clay; Diamond tables; and blue instead of green cloth, all in recent memory. We went from 2Shot to TE; 10Ball has become the preferred game over 9Ball; phenolic tips are banned, shorty jump cues are banned, and jump cues are generally banned from 1pocket.

Rules and equipment change and jump cues will eventually be totally banned, IMO. Just a matter of time. They constitute technology doping and make the jump shot too easy.

Lou Figueroa

 

[JB Cases]

Yes it does so you might want to tell them they printed this wrong

The World Pool-Billiard Association (WPA) is the international governing body for pocket billiards. The group was formed in Germany in November of 1987, as a result of the efforts of the European Pocket Billiard Federation. The Asian Pocket Billiard Union (APBU) was formed shortly after, and became the second member of the WPA. North America became the third member in 1990

1

I stand corrected, as do you.

It was formed by the EPBF as I stated. Not by the Europeans and the Asians "to gain an edge" as you stated.

The BCA however was the largest FUNDER of the WPA for a long time. I know this from direct conversation with Ian Anderson, the president of the WPA.

Again, the point remains that the question of jump cues was taken up by this body, which INCLUDED the BCA, and the rules governing them were put in place more than 20 years ago.

And FWIW the first jump cue to land in Asia was the one I sold to Fong Pong Chao in Las Vegas in 1999. Until then AFAIK no top professional in Taiwan had used jump cues. Shortly after that I was given a contract to supply 500 Bunjee Jumpers to a Taiwanese dealer.

So it's not like the Asian member of the WPA was "looking for an edge" when it came to the rules on jump cues when they were virtually unknown in Asia prior to Chao's introduction. Of course the rest is history since the Asians instead of being burdened by guilt and conflict like some of you simply accepted the new tool and set out to master it.

Now it seems like the Americans, some of them, are actually the ones who want to alter the rules to their presumed advantage by taking this tool away from the Asians and Europeans who seemingly practice more with it. Funny though those Asians and European players also seem to kick pretty damn sporty as well. For the Taiwanese at least I know it partly comes from playing a carom game on the pool table for money constantly. I guess the euros just practice more.

 

[JB Cases]

Doesn't matter how long they've been around -- rules and equipment change.

We went from 2Shot to TE, 10Ball has become the preferred game over 9Ball, phenolic tips are banned, and jump cues are generally banned from 1pocket. Now we have measles CBs, Aramith and Cyclop balls instead of clay, Diamond tables, and blue instead of green cloth, all in recent memory.

Rules and equipment change and jump cues will eventually be banned. They constitute technology doping and make the jump shot too easy.

Lou Figueroa

We will see. I bet we both die before anything changes. I can set up ten jump shots you WILL NOT make without practice.

You might as well say chalk makes spinning the ball too easy.

You seem to be confusing rules with preferences. There is no rule replacing 9 ball with 10 ball. 9 ball is still the preferred tournament format for the majority of rotation tournaments around the world.

Phenolic tips are not banned for jump cues, nor are they banned in the WPA at all for any cue. CSI banned them from break cues because of damage to the bad balls they were supplied by Aramith, a rule that is practically unenforceable anyway.

The rules didn't dictate a change from clay and ivory balls. Circumstance and innovation did to fill a need, just like jump cues evolved to fill a need.

Cloth color is not part of the rules. A pool tournament can be contested on any color of cloth. Diamond tables are also not part of the rules. They happen to be the prevalent brand in the USA at the moment among players but they are not the only brand and certainly not required by any ruleset anywhere.

In the world rules I am confident that jump cues will not be banned. For local promoters in America - of course they will and already are for those promoters and room owners who don't care one bit about the growth of the sport. They are the ones holding pool back by changing the rules to suit their own personal bias IMO. They are the ones depriving the players of the full pool experience under the world rules and causing their players to be at a disadvantage against the elite players in the world again in my opinion.

 

[lfigueroa]

We will see. I bet we both die before anything changes. I can set up ten jump shots you WILL NOT make without practice.

You might as well say chalk makes spinning the ball too easy.

You seem to be confusing rules with preferences. There is no rule replacing 9 ball with 10 ball. 9 ball is still the preferred tournament format for the majority of rotation tournaments around the world.

Phenolic tips are not banned for jump cues, nor are they banned in the WPA at all for any cue. CSI banned them from break cues because of damage to the bad balls they were supplied by Aramith, a rule that is practically unenforceable anyway.

The rules didn't dictate a change from clay and ivory balls. Circumstance and innovation did to fill a need, just like jump cues evolved to fill a need.

Cloth color is not part of the rules. A pool tournament can be contested on any color of cloth. Diamond tables are also not part of the rules. They happen to be the prevalent brand in the USA at the moment among players but they are not the only brand and certainly not required by any ruleset anywhere.

In the world rules I am confident that jump cues will not be banned. For local promoters in America - of course they will and already are for those promoters and room owners who don't care one bit about the growth of the sport. They are the ones holding pool back by changing the rules to suit their own personal bias IMO. They are the ones depriving the players of the full pool experience under the world rules and causing their players to be at a disadvantage against the elite players in the world again in my opinion.

It's not about growth, it's about the integrity of the game. And when a piece of equipment -- like a jump cue -- makes an element of the sport too easy, it should be banned.

Lou Figueroa

 

[philly]

It's not about growth, it's about the integrity of the game. And when a piece of equipment -- like a jump cue -- makes an element of the sport too easy, it should be banned.

Lou Figueroa

They can't kick Lou, so they will never get it and see the beauty of the rail game. Waste of breath.

 

[JB Cases]

It's not about growth, it's about the integrity of the game. And when a piece of equipment -- like a jump cue -- makes an element of the sport too easy, it should be banned.

Lou Figueroa

So we should ban chalk?

Or should we ban worsted cloth?

Maybe we should ban consistent rubber?

Or let's ban diamond markings?

How about large pockets?

Let's just ban cue sticks and go back to maces.

Definitely ban all those pesky diamond systems for banking and kicking. Those make it too easy for sure. And bar all those who teach them as well.

Again, I have $100 a shot to bet against you any time you think jumping is "too easy" with a jump cue.

You get a jump cue and five minutes to practice. If it's so easy then you ought to be able to do all the shots with no problem and win the money.

(yes go ahead and insert your "I already won your money" jab, I know you were waiting for an opening to do so.)

I think though that even a player of your caliber will fail because you don't understand the skill involved in shooting with a jump cue.

 

[JB Cases]

They can't kick Lou, so they will never get it and see the beauty of the rail game. Waste of breath.

Philly, if you want to have a kicking contest I will be happy to go up against you on a dual live feed for $100 a shot.

This idea that those of us who are pro jump cue can't kick is ridiculous. It's a silly red-herring argument that holds almost no truth. I could say the same about you, you can't jump so therefore you hate jump cues. Of course I don't know this to be true so I won't say it.

Again ANY good player knows how to kick AND jump and practices both along with masse' shots. I can do all three and am willing to bet on my ability. Are you?

 

[one stroke]

I stand corrected, as do you.

It was formed by the EPBF as I stated. Not by the Europeans and the Asians "to gain an edge" as you stated.

The BCA however was the largest FUNDER of the WPA for a long time. I know this from direct conversation with Ian Anderson, the president of the WPA.

Again, the point remains that the question of jump cues was taken up by this body, which INCLUDED the BCA, and the rules governing them were put in place more than 20 years ago.

And FWIW the first jump cue to land in Asia was the one I sold to Fong Pong Chao in Las Vegas in 1999. Until then AFAIK no top professional in Taiwan had used jump cues. Shortly after that I was given a contract to supply 500 Bunjee Jumpers to a Taiwanese dealer.

So it's not like the Asian member of the WPA was "looking for an edge" when it came to the rules on jump cues when they were virtually unknown in Asia prior to Chao's introduction. Of course the rest is history since the Asians instead of being burdened by guilt and conflict like some of you simply accepted the new tool and set out to master it.

Now it seems like the Americans, some of them, are actually the ones who want to alter the rules to their presumed advantage by taking this tool away from the Asians and Europeans who seemingly practice more with it. Funny though those Asians and European players also seem to kick pretty damn sporty as well. For the Taiwanese at least I know it partly comes from playing a carom game on the pool table for money constantly. I guess the euros just practice more.

I guess the European Pocket Billards Federation is a group of Canadians not Euro's

As for the BCA who are they ,, nobody is reconizing them as a governing body but them
If a UPA is formed again it will be interesting to see if they make a change
Most Pro's I have talked to don't like them in the game
Our biggest room owner as far as teams does not allow and other owners going there are starting to see why his tables stay in great shape with out a bunch of divits in them

1

 

[philly]

Philly, if you want to have a kicking contest I will be happy to go up against you on a dual live feed for $100 a shot.

This idea that those of us who are pro jump cue can't kick is ridiculous. It's a silly red-herring argument that holds almost no truth. I could say the same about you, you can't jump so therefore you hate jump cues. Of course I don't know this to be true so I won't say it.

Again ANY good player knows how to kick AND jump and practices both along with masse' shots. I can do all three and am willing to bet on my ability. Are you?

I can't kick JB. I have never tried. I just feel there is something undignified about jumping. It just seems impure to me as if you are being untrue to the beautiful game of pool and it merely seems to be a gimmick. Sorry to offend you. As I said before, I am a purist. I have a feeling you would bet on two cockroaches running across a room, a horse race, or even if the sun comes up tomorrow if you got the right odds. I like to play 3 cushion once in a while and I believe pocket billiards is an evolutionary outgrowth of that RAIL game. See you at the SBE.

 

[Floppage]

Our biggest room owner as far as teams does not allow and other owners going there are starting to see why his tables stay in great shape with out a bunch of divits in them

1

That's interesting. I have heard there are pool rooms with "no jumping" signs but I always assumed that was because too many of the uninformed use "scooping" in place of jumping and risk damaging the cloth.

It seems like jumping gets more popular all the time so will this result in a backlash from some pool rooms and more "No Jumping" signs cropping uip?

 

[9andout]

And pleeeeease! At least call the 9!

 

[Floppage]

That's interesting. I have heard there are pool rooms with "no jumping" signs but I always assumed that was because too many of the uninformed use "scooping" in place of jumping and risk damaging the cloth.

It seems like jumping gets more popular all the time so will this result in a backlash from some pool rooms and more "No Jumping" signs cropping uip?

Oh...and "No Masse Shots Allowed" :wink:

 

[DaveK]

I guess the European Pocket Billards Federation is a group of Canadians not Euro's

Hey, leave us out of this please :angry::wink::grin-square:

Heck many of us play snooker, a game where jumping is a foul and nobody carries a jump cue.

Dave <-- plays 8 and 9 ball and occasionally carries a jump cue .... a Bunjee knock-off :lol: sorry John :lol: ... and plays at a pool hall with a sign that states rules including "no jumping" and "no masses" and "no gambling" and "no swearing" and "no spitting" (thankfully nobody spits in the pool hall anymore:wink

 

[JB Cases]

I can't kick JB. I have never tried. I just feel there is something undignified about jumping. It just seems impure to me as if you are being untrue to the beautiful game of pool and it merely seems to be a gimmick. Sorry to offend you. As I said before, I am a purist. I have a feeling you would bet on two cockroaches running across a room, a horse race, or even if the sun comes up tomorrow if you got the right odds. I like to play 3 cushion once in a while and I believe pocket billiards is an evolutionary outgrowth of that RAIL game. See you at the SBE.

Actually I don't bet on chance things. When I offer to bet on here it's generally on something I can do (or think I can do) or something I know for sure.

I understand your purist stance. When I started up Bunjee I didn't even own a jump cue. Not because I was against them, just for whatever reason I didn't think I needed one enough to own one. I actually had to put in about a month's practice to get proficient with the jump cue. Yes, I could "jump" a ball in ten minutes with one. But to get PRECISE I had to really put in some table time.

I didn't want to look foolish when I went to the show and demonstrated them.

My point is though that yes pocket billiards did come from pocketless billiards but it is now a different game with different rules and different needs. If there was no need for jump cues then it's a pretty sure bet that jump cues wouldn't exist. Jumping is what should have been banned to prevent the need for jump cues.

Jump cues are not the problem, rules that allow jumping and thus make it inequitable (tall people have an advantage and people with cues that have better "jumpability" have an advantage) are the problem. Jump cues only make what's allowed under the rules, jumping, equally POSSIBLE for all players. How good someone can be depends entirely on how much they are willing to practice.

Even though you are a purist I would hope that you understand that many of us who are pro-jump cue also respect the game, we also understand the history of the game, we also revere the great players of the past and we also study all aspects of the game. Saying that we don't know how to kick because we accept jump cues isn't the right way to go about it no matter how good it feels to say it. Hell I wish it were true then I could get more wins off the people I play who are really good with a jump cue when I lock them up and take away the jump.

 

[Floppage]

Dave <-- plays 8 and 9 ball and occasionally carries a jump cue .... a Bunjee knock-off :lol: sorry John :lol: ... and plays at a pool hall with a sign that states rules including "no jumping" and "no masses" and "no gambling" and "no swearing" and "no spitting" (thankfully nobody spits in the pool hall anymore:wink

You should take in a piece of paper that says "No Chalk" and tape it below the rules sign.

 

[JB Cases]

I guess the European Pocket Billards Federation is a group of Canadians not Euro's

As for the BCA who are they ,, nobody is reconizing them as a governing body but them
If a UPA is formed again it will be interesting to see if they make a change
Most Pro's I have talked to don't like them in the game
Our biggest room owner as far as teams does not allow and other owners going there are starting to see why his tables stay in great shape with out a bunch of divits in them

1

Funny my tables were always in great shape. Maybe it's because I cleaned them every day. Jump cues were allowed in my room and we had zero problems with divots. Cloth that gets flattened by a jump shot, by a masse' shot, by a break shot - comes back up with proper cleaning.

Did I mention I owned a pool room?

Jump cue use does not damage the equipment. I have proven that countless times in my demonstrations.