Get rid of jump cues for Mosconi Cup

one stroke said:
You have a vested intrest , you helped put jump cues on the market so asking your opinion and expecting a unbiased answer is unrealalistic
So to any reasonable thinking person discards your tainted opinions
Other's here have no other intrest except for the good of the game

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Are you implying that anyone that introduces a product to a certain industry does so only for their own interests and has no interest whatsoever about that industry, or the potential benefit that product produces?

What a horrible outlook on humanity...

I sometimes run pool tournaments. Why? Because I like pool, I like tournaments, I think I can do a good job putting one together, run it effectively, and make many people happy. I don't make any money off of it. I just like it, and others do too. *IF* I could make a living doing that, well, sure that would be great. And it wouldn't influence the reasons why I do it. It may add a couple new ones...

It seems obvious to me that John has a passion for pool and pool products. I'm not sure why anyone would assume his opinions are "tainted by this".

KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
Some people are smart. MOST people are not. The smart ones will appear to be "know it alls" to the not so smart ones. Sometimes just talking is "talking down" when your ego is bruised because you are wrong.

John didn't say he spoke for all pro players. How on earth did you come up with that? John specifically said he was for jump cues, and gave numerous reasons why.

In many cases, smart people are smart people because they have a desire to be right. Although there is a very important distinction to be made: Some want to be right in that their knowledge reflects reality. Some want to be right in that others accept their view whether or not it reflects reality.

The bottom line is that in thread, John has made rational logical arguments, and his detractors have not. The detractors may be right, but their inability to formulate a rational argument eliminates this outcome.

If we make an analogy here between level of play in pool and level and quality of argumentation, we have a semi pro player running racks on a few C players and one or two bar room ball bangers. Sad that the bangers don't recognize this.

At least that is how I see this thread having gone.

KMRUNOUT
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Most truly smart people realize that they speak for one seven-billionth of the population - that being themselves.

You and John make the mistake of thinking you speak for everyone except the poster you're addressing. And you feel like you speak for the world. Neither of you do. You speak for yourself, only. And I really don't think that JB's logical argument that chalk, vulcanized rubber and diamonds on the rail equate in any way to a 40" cue specifically made for jumping holds any water at all. Pool CAN be played without the jump cue. It has been up until the 80s. So. the argument is logically invalid.

You've argued that the centre of a snooker ball is smaller than the centre of a pool ball. Actually, their diameters and circumference are different. Their centres are the exact same size. Suppose I asked you to imagine a target spot or smaller circle, roughly the size of a cue tip. I then place that target on a basketball, and also on the moon. Which target is easier to hit? Answer - the targets are the same size. So it's irrelevant how big the frame for the target is.

But keep talking down to people, as you clearly seem to know you're one of the "smart people".
 
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KMRUNOUT said:
Some people are smart. MOST people are not. The smart ones will appear to be "know it alls" to the not so smart ones. Sometimes just talking is "talking down" when your ego is bruised because you are wrong. John didn't say he spoke for all pro players. How on earth did you come up with that? John specifically said he was for jump cues, and gave numerous reasons why.

In many cases, smart people are smart people because they have a desire to be right. Although there is a very important distinction to be made: Some want to be right in that their knowledge reflects reality. Some want to be right in that others accept their view whether or not it reflects reality.

The bottom line is that in thread, John has made rational logical arguments, and his detractors have not. The detractors may be right, but their inability to formulate a rational argument eliminates this outcome.

If we make an analogy here between level of play in pool and level and quality of argumentation, we have a semi pro player running racks on a few C players and one or two bar room ball bangers. Sad that the bangers don't recognize this.

At least that is how I see this thread having gone.

KMRUNOUT
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Careful there K-man...Your 2nd paragraph sounds almost as confusing as some of Barton's rhetoric! :confused: Are you trying to emulate him, or are you maybe one of his jump cue 'dealers'?..:o :o :o :grin:

Shawn Armstrong said:
....And I really don't think that JB's logical argument that chalk, vulcanized rubber and diamonds on the rail equate in any way to a 40" cue specifically made for jumping holds any water at all. Pool CAN be played without the jump cue. It has been up until the 80s. So. the argument is logically invalid...But keep talking down to people, as you clearly seem to know you're one of the "smart people".
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PS..Pretty accurate assessment SA, if you ask me! :cool:

45842422.jpg
 
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JB Cases said:
Well then if it's nothing special you get up there and do it for the cash.

Oh wait.....

That's right

NO BODY WANTS TO BET A QUARTER ON THEIR OWN ABILITY TO DO THESE EASY SHOTS.

Talk is cheep....cheep.....cheep
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Iv made more shots for the cash then I could even begin to remember ,,


1
 
KMRUNOUT said:
Are you implying that anyone that introduces a product to a certain industry does so only for their own interests and has no interest whatsoever about that industry, or the potential benefit that product produces?

KMRUNOUT
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If they charge good money for it, yes. If it was purely for the good of the industry, they'd make it available at a non-profit. I don't see JB running a charity, so first and foremost...he's a business. Do businesses fulfill needs? Sure. But first and foremost, they consider their own interests.

I could go into work on Monday, and sell everything at cost. I wouldn't be in business long.

JB wants a case back from me, has fired me as a customer, and wants to badmouth me on YouTube. I don't think that reflects the interests of the industry.
 
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KMRUNOUT said:
Are you implying that anyone that introduces a product to a certain industry does so only for their own interests and has no interest whatsoever about that industry, or the potential benefit that product produces?

What a horrible outlook on humanity...

I sometimes run pool tournaments. Why? Because I like pool, I like tournaments, I think I can do a good job putting one together, run it effectively, and make many people happy. I don't make any money off of it. I just like it, and others do too. *IF* I could make a living doing that, well, sure that would be great. And it wouldn't influence the reasons why I do it. It may add a couple new ones...

It seems obvious to me that John has a passion for pool and pool products. I'm not sure why anyone would assume his opinions are "tainted by this".

KMRUNOUT
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He basicly has taken credit for the Asian jumping revolution by bringing the first 500 jump cues there
I don't know how anyone can think he is a unbiased opinion

1
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Better yet, a deck of Chance cards on the side of the table. Deal a set of cards out at the beginning of the game. There are "lose a turn" cards. "Get out of jail free" cards. When you get hooked, you can play the get out of jail free card. Last ball before the run out, the opponent can play the lose a turn card, and take over. There could be a hole cam like poker. It would definitely improve the marketability of the game.

Who are these professionals you speak of? It there a world ranking group? A series of tour events that have points? A world champion that is crowned at the end of the year based on the year's results? An end of year seeded event for all of the players of the world?

There is no world sanctioning body for pool. I could create a league today, or a tournament series, offer tonnes of cash, and state "no jump cues". You could walk up to me, show me the WPA rules, and demand to be allowed to use the jump cue. And you could continue to complain about it to your friend on the way to your car, and during the drive to the next tournament that will allow you to use it. The jump cue isn't universally legal. It's allowed to be used in any event using WPA rules. There are no universal laws of pool. That's what pool is missing. So please stop with this BS of "jump cues are legal, so deal with it". They are illegal at several events, which means there are a growing number of players that don't like the jump cue.
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All the professional pool players use the WPA's ranking to determine who the world #1 is.

The jump cue is legal at all WORLD Pool Association sanctioned events. It's legal at all events in Europe and all events in Asia for amateurs as far as I know. The ONLY place where people have any issue is in America where SOME tournaments and some rooms ban them.

Otherwise the rest of the world which is generally regarded as having the better players, has no problem with jump cues.

Even the APA allows them for their upper level divisions as Kerry pointed out.

If you created your own thing and said no jump cues I wouldn't petition you for anything because contrary to your belief it's not important to me. Your events would not be WPA sanctioned and so it would be a totally separate thing and another example of why pool is so fractured. People whine about how pool can't get bigger and then they are very quick to celebrate the division when there is some rule that the main body trying to grow pool does that they don't agree with.

Well, screw the WPA - Zuglan does it my way so there......

The World Champion is crowned by the WPA at WPA sanctioned events.

For example. https://youtu.be/3W5-Z2eBAaY?t=393
 
And another one that takes away the jump shot.
https://youtu.be/3W5-Z2eBAaY?t=2954

These are examples of the higher level of skill present in modern pool.

Andf of course Ko played the seven to go one rail and freeze to the 8 off the kick right? Because kicking is always controlled and precise.....

And then - Shane MUST be punished and not allowed to use a jump cue when Ko hooks him yet again off a lucky roll.

That's brilliant thinking.
 
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JB Cases said:
All the professional pool players use the WPA's ranking to determine who the world #1 is.

The jump cue is legal at all WORLD Pool Association sanctioned events. It's legal at all events in Europe and all events in Asia for amateurs as far as I know. The ONLY place where people have any issue is in America where SOME tournaments and some rooms ban them.

Otherwise the rest of the world which is generally regarded as having the better players, has no problem with jump cues.

Even the APA allows them for their upper level divisions as Kerry pointed out.

If you created your own thing and said no jump cues I wouldn't petition you for anything because contrary to your belief it's not important to me. Your events would not be WPA sanctioned and so it would be a totally separate thing and another example of why pool is so fractured. People whine about how pool can't get bigger and then they are very quick to celebrate the division when there is some rule that the main body trying to grow pool does that they don't agree with.

Well, screw the WPA - Zuglan does it my way so there......

The World Champion is crowned by the WPA at WPA sanctioned events.

For example. https://youtu.be/3W5-Z2eBAaY?t=393
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No all pro players don't use the WPA to figure who number 1 is many of them know it's a flawed ranking
Most of them would rather be first on the money list of given a choice ,, there's many more reasons why pool is not where some think it should be and none of them involve the rules of the game
I ran a APA division never heard so many complaints about the rules but they all paid and played
1
 
JB Cases said:
And another one that takes away the jump shot.
https://youtu.be/3W5-Z2eBAaY?t=2954

These are examples of the higher level of skill present in modern pool.

Andf of course Ko played the seven to go one rail and freeze to the 8 off the kick right? Because kicking is always controlled and precise.....

And then - Shane MUST be punished and not allowed to use a jump cue when Ko hooks him yet again off a lucky roll.

That's brilliant thinking.
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And we've never seen a player jump a ball, make contact with the legal ball, leaving the incoming player hooked, with only a kick shot at the ball. Ever.

"Brilliant thinking".
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
No. Here is an example of skills present in modern pool. And no one changes their cue. The entire match.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlEqBKHjYiY

Using 9 ball as the measure of skills in pool is like using mini putt to determine the world's best golfer.
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You need to come into the present century. 14.1 hasn't been used to determine the world's best player for more than 50 years.

Now we are going to make this thread a comparison between nine ball and 14.1?

We already did that on here dozens of times. Nine ball is the game now. The best 14.1 player in the world doesn't matter if he can't win a nine ball tournament. And to win a professional nine ball tournament you have to be able to kick, jump and masse' at a world class level. You have to be an expert with more than one cue.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
And we've never seen a player jump a ball, make contact with the legal ball, leaving the incoming player hooked, with only a kick shot at the ball. Ever.

"Brilliant thinking".
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Of course we have. You missed the point, again. You and others have called for the incoming player to be PUNISHED by taking away the jump option.
 
And here https://youtu.be/3W5-Z2eBAaY?t=5051

Shane looks at the jump, then measures the kick using a double-the-distance-mirror method, then considers a masse' - sets up for a jump - then decides on the kick and executes a near perfect kick-safe.

No, the skill level TODAY is not higher than 50 years ago........ lols.
 
one stroke said:
No all pro players don't use the WPA to figure who number 1 is many of them know it's a flawed ranking
Most of them would rather be first on the money list of given a choice ,, there's many more reasons why pool is not where some think it should be and none of them involve the rules of the game
I ran a APA division never heard so many complaints about the rules but they all paid and played
1
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For the purpose of talking to the press no professional player would ever claim the number one spot if they are not number one on the WPA ranking list.

To a man they all defer to the WPA list to determine who the NUMBER ONE player on earth is. Some may talk about the money list and that's a valid point but the #1 player is the one who is #1 on the WPA's list.
 
JB Cases said:
The someone said today's players don't know how to kick....and presumably don't know how to masse' either......then along came SVB to prove them wrong :-)

https://youtu.be/3W5-Z2eBAaY?t=5946
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Funny how you have only one guy you can use in the modern era. Maybe two. Yet in the 90s, you have a ton of players that all kicked well. Bustamante kicks better than all of the players on the USA MC team.

What's SVB's stance on the jump cue, again?
 
JB Cases said:
You need to come into the present century. 14.1 hasn't been used to determine the world's best player for more than 50 years.

Now we are going to make this thread a comparison between nine ball and 14.1?

We already did that on here dozens of times. Nine ball is the game now. The best 14.1 player in the world doesn't matter if he can't win a nine ball tournament. And to win a professional nine ball tournament you have to be able to kick, jump and masse' at a world class level. You have to be an expert with more than one cue.
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Hohmann has world titles in both. Anyone else you know that can lay claim to that?

9 ball isn't used to determine who the world's best player is, either. It's used to determine the world's best 9 ball player.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Funny how you have only one guy you can use in the modern era. Maybe two. Yet in the 90s, you have a ton of players that all kicked well. Bustamante kicks better than all of the players on the USA MC team.

What's SVB's stance on the jump cue, again?
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I can use them all - I am just watching THIS match. I know what Shane said, but he pulls out the jump cue when he needs to.

Bustamante and Efren were both conditioned to kick by growing up playing a completely different game, rotation.

Therefore they might very well kick better than all the Americans but that doesn't change the fact that Americans have gotten way better at kicking overall.

I'd bet that current players around as a group kick as well or better than players of the 80s and 90s as a group. I will bet $100 and accept At Large's data to determine the winner :-) Want to take me up on it.

In the 80s and 90s kicking was MOSTLY hard trying to get lucky. In the 2000s onward kicking became much more controlled and deliberate.
 
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