Why cant we have standardized rules

Kevin3824

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am writing this thread because another thread got me to thinking about this topic. It is probably all about money. I want to know though.

Why can't all the amateur pool leagues get together and agree upon a standard set of rules and regulations about how pool will be played. It may sound simple at first but it is not at all. I know there are several different variations of pool such as 8-ball, 9-ball, 10-ball, 14.1, Rotation, one pocket. They should all be included. That is not what I am saying. What I am asking about is things like standards in what equipment will be used. The equipment should be standard no matter where you go. wooden table beds should not be allowed. Honestly I don't think that cracked slate beds should be either. There are some people that would say if it was properly repaired you cant tell the difference but waxing a seam is not the same as waxing a break or crack. There should be standards on which cloth can or should be used as well and it should be the same cloth they use if they go to any tournament.
Standards of game play like clear definitions of what calling a shot really is. Is it just calling the ball number and the pocket or is it calling all rail and ball contact along the way specifically? What happens if a player sinks the eight ball on a break in a game of eight ball or the 9 on a break in nine ball? When does the game of eight ball or nine ball end when the eight ball or nine drops if so what if the cue ball scratches after the object ball dropped? How does the league look at safety play as opposed to defensive play as they are actually quite different things. It is my opinion that every shot I make is offensive because to play defensively would indicate I am already behind. I like to play every shot to be able to make my target ball but if not leave my opponent with a hard shot if any. I think there should be standards on pocket size, table size measured by playing area, Maximum cue size, Possibly cue type limitations as well. Will jump cues or shots be allowed? There should be a standard of size and weight of the balls being used as well. That may pose a different problem with some of the current tables that require an oversize cue ball.
There really needs to be standards among the amateur leagues. I understand that many people will say that the bar owners will not put out the money for the better equipment and they may be correct. There may be other answers to that out there that they are not seeing such as leasing a table. lets leave the money out of it for now if we can get a standard set of rules we can work out the cost later.

I have noticed there are many leagues that promote team play but very few that promote individual competition. The handicap max used in some leagues seems to make the less skilled player the most valuable if that team has at least one high ranking player. I like the idea that the handicap system will allow everyone to play on an even field ideally. However creating a cap on how many skill points a team can have seems to make people not want to get better as they may get less play time if they get to high a rank or be forced off a team only to have to create a team of their own or have more less skilled players on their team. In my local area there are three different leagues available. I live in a small city with a lot of bars near me. I have been looking at many different leagues even ones that are not in my area. I still have not been able to find a league that is set up to have city, county, state, regional, and national championships as a single player not as a team. I have seen close in some areas. Team play is good but it tends to hinder the single player from improving beyond amateur level. You can go as a team to Vegas and win every game you play yet if your team members lose you all lose. They will not take the individuals and create new teams to find out who would make up the best team even. Although maybe if they did they could have a great practice team for the Mosconi cup team. With standardized equipment the difference between table size would not be a big obstacle as the angles would be the same it would only be a slight difference in ball speed.
 
Why can't all the amateur pool leagues get together and agree upon a standard set of rules and regulations about how pool will be played.

Because there are multiple sanctioning bodies.
Each sanctioning body wants to keep its power.
 
I am writing this thread because another thread got me to thinking about this topic. It is probably all about money. I want to know though.

Why can't all the amateur pool leagues get together and agree upon a standard set of rules and regulations about how pool will be played. It may sound simple at first but it is not at all. I know there are several different variations of pool such as 8-ball, 9-ball, 10-ball, 14.1, Rotation, one pocket. They should all be included. That is not what I am saying. What I am asking about is things like standards in what equipment will be used. The equipment should be standard no matter where you go. wooden table beds should not be allowed. Honestly I don't think that cracked slate beds should be either. There are some people that would say if it was properly repaired you cant tell the difference but waxing a seam is not the same as waxing a break or crack. There should be standards on which cloth can or should be used as well and it should be the same cloth they use if they go to any tournament.
Standards of game play like clear definitions of what calling a shot really is. Is it just calling the ball number and the pocket or is it calling all rail and ball contact along the way specifically? What happens if a player sinks the eight ball on a break in a game of eight ball or the 9 on a break in nine ball? When does the game of eight ball or nine ball end when the eight ball or nine drops if so what if the cue ball scratches after the object ball dropped? How does the league look at safety play as opposed to defensive play as they are actually quite different things. It is my opinion that every shot I make is offensive because to play defensively would indicate I am already behind. I like to play every shot to be able to make my target ball but if not leave my opponent with a hard shot if any. I think there should be standards on pocket size, table size measured by playing area, Maximum cue size, Possibly cue type limitations as well. Will jump cues or shots be allowed? There should be a standard of size and weight of the balls being used as well. That may pose a different problem with some of the current tables that require an oversize cue ball.
There really needs to be standards among the amateur leagues. I understand that many people will say that the bar owners will not put out the money for the better equipment and they may be correct. There may be other answers to that out there that they are not seeing such as leasing a table. lets leave the money out of it for now if we can get a standard set of rules we can work out the cost later.

I have noticed there are many leagues that promote team play but very few that promote individual competition. The handicap max used in some leagues seems to make the less skilled player the most valuable if that team has at least one high ranking player. I like the idea that the handicap system will allow everyone to play on an even field ideally. However creating a cap on how many skill points a team can have seems to make people not want to get better as they may get less play time if they get to high a rank or be forced off a team only to have to create a team of their own or have more less skilled players on their team. In my local area there are three different leagues available. I live in a small city with a lot of bars near me. I have been looking at many different leagues even ones that are not in my area. I still have not been able to find a league that is set up to have city, county, state, regional, and national championships as a single player not as a team. I have seen close in some areas. Team play is good but it tends to hinder the single player from improving beyond amateur level. You can go as a team to Vegas and win every game you play yet if your team members lose you all lose. They will not take the individuals and create new teams to find out who would make up the best team even. Although maybe if they did they could have a great practice team for the Mosconi cup team. With standardized equipment the difference between table size would not be a big obstacle as the angles would be the same it would only be a slight difference in ball speed.

Because there are too many whiners and crybabies. I quit playing tournaments because the rules are different everywhere you go; and seldom make any sense whatsoever. Seems the Head Hillbilly makes the rules when convenient for him and everyone else is too afraid or stupid to stop it.
I went to a place that had an 8 ball and 9ball tournament weekly. The 8ball was ball in hand. The 9ball wasnt. In 8ball you had to contact rail to play safe. In 9ball, you didnt, and there was no ball in hand. Had to call the 9 ball while on the 9 ball but could slop it in at anytime.

A plethora of horrendous decisions... Did i mention it had alot of APA players?? Shocking....
 
It's really because the game has no real governing body & has not for quite some time.

The Brits Respect & Honor their game of Snooker with Tradition.
 
Why should we when most other sports don't?



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That's nonsense
Other sports may not be fully standardised but they sure do not have the laughable diversity of rules that pool has.
Everything from table size, pocket size, racking rules, break rules, playing rules, etc etc can be different.
I think one reason for the diversity is to give players tonnes of excuses if they lose
-The pockets are too big so anyone can win
-It is alternate break, I am better at winners break
-The table is too big that my axx cannot concentrate
:grin:
 
It's really because the game has no real governing body & has not for quite some time.

The Brits Respect & Honor their game of Snooker with Tradition.

anddddd survey says.....WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!! go home shows over.


help me teach kids and things will change....the future lies in the kids. They will need our direction to grow this to make it happen one day.

olympics, real tour thats profitable for players.....all goingto start with bringing kids in and growing bottom to top like all the other major sports have grown.

They not learning how to be hustlers, how to want weight and bla bla. Respect, fundamentals,technique, love of the game. All of the best chit, none of the bullchit.

regards,
Grey
 
anddddd survey says.....WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!! go home shows over.


help me teach kids and things will change....the future lies in the kids. They will need our direction to grow this to make it happen one day.

olympics, real tour thats profitable for players.....all goingto start with bringing kids in and growing bottom to top like all the other major sports have grown.

They not learning how to be hustlers, how to want weight and bla bla. Respect, fundamentals,technique, love of the game. All of the best chit, none of the bullchit.

regards,
Grey

Sounds good but short on understanding. Kids have their own culture (like we did). They tell us in many ways "You can keep your game. We have other more fun and more challenging stuff to do than fool around with your traditions."

If we are interested in preserving our game, our generation would probably be far better off giving the kids a set of balls and encouraging them to devise their own game to their own liking. My guess would be that they would invent an interactive game.

The world is changing.....fast.
 
Sounds good but short on understanding. Kids have their own culture (like we did). They tell us in many ways "You can keep your game. We have other more fun and more challenging stuff to do than fool around with your traditions."

If we are interested in preserving our game, our generation would probably be far better off giving the kids a set of balls and encouraging them to devise their own game to their own liking. My guess would be that they would invent an interactive game.

The world is changing.....fast.

we can agree on most of that....but ive had kids and pretty young and old who the only thing in the world they wanted to do was play video games.....come over to my place when i had the wii, ps3, xbox (al my gf's i only have a Sega and NES lol) and a 9ft brunswick.....each of these kids, three to be exact. 8, 13, 11 (just the ones ive seen at my home who were gamer freaks) see said pool table.....and not say jack for 3-5 hours and just playing pool or throwing the balls around with their hands nd being competely captured.

and there wouldn't be anything wrong with new games, just so they hold to the basic standards of the game and such....that would be neat a new game especially with great rules like how wellrounded one hole is for both sides....but maybe with a quicker tempo of pace???? these kids are bonafide geniuses, no joke what so ever man.


its like saying kids today dont want to eat good food....bullcorn....you or someone is doing somethiing wrong, becauseboth of these instances work for me.

we always had real young kids coming into the palace and wanting to learn. when marcus and i first had the idea for after school pool program when we both lived in natchitoches the kids at his school he taught at i think over half had signedup as interested.

i hear the same kinds of crap that no one likes baseball and baseball is going down hill bla bla bla.


and im teaching these kids the bad ass games, that will enthrall their minds for life. Snooker, One pocket, banks, rotation....and sooner than later ill have what i need to be teaching them and myself to play (or play better on my part) 3cushion billliards.

kids at this place take kempo, fencing, rowing, lacrosse....list goes on and on.

2 days notice and i had a dozen kids helping move a 10' snooker table up two stories by themselves.....on a sat morning at 9am!!! GASP!

maybe i'm lying or maybe i just do it diff than others and get diff results.

maybe i just dont take no for an answer....but just like with food....you show me something you dont like....and ill make it somehting you love, with a little clandestine work,but work none the less.

workem like the individuals they are.....change masks b/t them if you have to doesn't matter.

made believers out of computer nerds and cow tongue haters alike.

-greyghost
 
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The Brits Respect & Honor their game of Snooker with Tradition.

Perhaps, but pool has been around longer than Snooker. Snooker only started getting hugely publicly popular around 1969.

If Snooker rules are consistent, I'm going to theorize that the reason is that Joe Davis was the benevolent dictator of the game for decades. He helped organize the first world championship in 1927 and was the world champion for 20 years. He decided who could play as a pro and who could not. He ran the most prestigious Snooker hall, Leicester Square Hall. He developed the strategies for enabling large runs, and achieved the first 147.

I imagine everyone today is playing with the Snooker rules Joe Davis defined.
 
The problem is anyone can buy tables and do what they want, even if pool had a great governing body there is nothing to stop someone from doing what they want. The problem with people is that no matter what someone else does someone has to do it different. Lots of sports follow their governing body's rules because it's to expensive to build your own sports field. I think the only way to have pool follow one set of rules would be to have pro players on a tour for huge money which would have lots more people trying to get on the tour. That won't happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
That's nonsense
Other sports may not be fully standardised but they sure do not have the laughable diversity of rules that pool has.

Yes, they do have a "laughable diversity of rules". Yet people claiming to be mature rabidly follow them, dump billions of dollars into them, have physical fights over those rules, watch television for hours on end, have parties for the events, worship the "stars", and on and on.... It's so bad that people think the behavior surrounding all of it is normal.

That's what is nonsense.


You do realize that for the general public, pool as a recreation is seen to be something on par with miniature golf and as a sport is seen to me more on par with ping-pong, darts, and bowling. For gawd sake they are in the same isle at the department store, they are in the same catalog pages, and share the same distributors historically.

At the flea market the box with the odd pool balls also has odd ping pong paddles, darts, and even bowling balls. The cue sticks are with the umbrellas and the golf clubs are on their own but kept somewhere closer to an expensive telescope and desk set than the pool cues.

That would be more nonsense.


What I said? Not so much nonsense. :wink:




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anddddd survey says.....WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!! go home shows over.


help me teach kids and things will change....the future lies in the kids. They will need our direction to grow this to make it happen one day.

olympics, real tour thats profitable for players.....all goingto start with bringing kids in and growing bottom to top like all the other major sports have grown.

They not learning how to be hustlers, how to want weight and bla bla. Respect, fundamentals,technique, love of the game. All of the best chit, none of the bullchit.

regards,
Grey

Keebe,

You're relatively young. If you really & truly want to help the game get to a standing of where it should be the model is the Professional Golfers Association of America.

Research the old days & it's foundation. There was a time when it was only an Amateurs game for the wealthy, but there were non wealthy 'Hustlers', Men, that would bet & take money from other amateurs.

Those 'professionals' that took money for whatever reason were look down upon & where not welcome to even go into the country clubs around the country.

That is similar to the game of pocket billiards, but the two sports or games, or I should say the players, went in different directions.

The old golf professionals made sacrifices in the early going to form & build their Association & they became THEIR own governing body, so to speak here in the U.S. along with the US Governing Authority to govern the game, even though the Royal & Ancient remains the World Governing Body.

The things of which you speak such as a tour where players can profit lay in them, the players, owning their own tour & controlling their own fate. That will take sacrifice on their part in order to make that come into existence. They have never really been up to that task.

The early tennis scene would probably also be a good study.

Perhaps you can be the first commissioner.:wink:

Best Wishes & Good Luck with Your Endeavors & in your Personal Life,
Rick
 
Major League Baseball is a whole lot bigger than pool, and even they don't have any particularly stringent rules for where to put the outfield wall or how high it is. A home run on one field is an easy out on another. Varying equipment is just part of the game, though I have to say I really hate playing on a bar box and will avoid it at all costs if possible.
 
Major League Baseball is a whole lot bigger than pool, and even they don't have any particularly stringent rules for where to put the outfield wall or how high it is. A home run on one field is an easy out on another. Varying equipment is just part of the game, though I have to say I really hate playing on a bar box and will avoid it at all costs if possible.

As far as equipment goes while you are correct in that fields may be different sizes as may the gloves a person wear on their hands to catch the ball. The ball itself is a standard size and weight. The bats used are also regulated as well. I could say that football is much more popular an all the football fields are the same size. All regulation basketball courts are the same size. I would think all soccer fields are the same size as well.

Honestly in amateur league play typically you need to pay an anual membership fee as well as a dues each night you play. If you look at it as you will likely only play less then an hour a week per league then your dues are pretty close to the amount you would be paying for table time in a pool hall. Should you not be able to expect close to the same quality of equipment for the same money? From what I have seen the tables in bars are typically far worse then you would find at a pool hall. That is not even taking into account most pool halls have only 7 and 9 foot tables and bars have 6, 7, 8 as well as size in between with valley and dynamo tables. To have rules and regulations upon equipment as well as how the game is played that are accepted worldwide would be a huge step towards being recognized as a Sport and possibly an Olympic Sport as well.
 
They can't even decide between real grass and fake grass, and that's far more important than a few feet here and there.

Anyhow, beyond just the philosophical argument of it doesn't matter because we all play on the same stuff, standardization will never happen because owners will never spend tens of thousands of dollars changing all of their equipment to "standard". The vast majority of matches happen at regular pool halls or bars, not conference centers where shiny new equipment is flown in for the occasion. It's just not practical. I'm lucky to find a decent piece of chalk so I've been carrying my own for 20 years. You think they're going to adjust all of their tables to the standard? Fuggidaboudit.

And as far as maximum cue length, I would hate to be the one to break that news to Earl, though I think it would make for a good YouTube video. :)
 
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Major League Baseball is a whole lot bigger than pool, and even they don't have any particularly stringent rules for where to put the outfield wall or how high it is. A home run on one field is an easy out on another. Varying equipment is just part of the game, though I have to say I really hate playing on a bar box and will avoid it at all costs if possible.

That's just silly. An outfield fence is not part of the "rules". Just like pool tables have diff sizes, so do MLB parks. However, the bases, the mound., the rubber, the bases, the balls, etc is set in stone. And fake grass or real are field conditions as well, just like some places use Simonis cloth and others use championship. No big deal.

The rules however are the same other than the DH, and from HS to college to MLB, the rules are pretty much the same. And the important rules like strikes, balls, outs, how runs score, tag ups, etc, are the same for 7 yr olds as they are for MLB, because unlike the APA, baseball does not need to "dumb" down the game so some kid can win a game by getting lucky, if they learn the game from an early age so it is ingrained In them up the baseball chain.

So, there are world standardized rules for pool, just many leagues don't follow them. Most apa players I know prefer to play by world standardized rules, nobody is going to heart broken about not slopping in a ball, or getting the choice of balls after the break.
 
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As far as equipment goes while you are correct in that fields may be different sizes as may the gloves a person wear on their hands to catch the ball. The ball itself is a standard size and weight. The bats used are also regulated as well.

Um...that standardization is only the same in one league.....


Then there is minor league, college leagues, high school leagues, corporate leagues, local leagues, little league, T-Ball...and many, many more. Just like pool.

Then there is softball. Fast pitch, slow pitch and then all the various leagues.

In fact, a lot more people play with some other standard of rules and regulations than MLB than actually play MLB. A lot more.


There are even other pro leagues...I don't know Japan and other countries where baseball is popular, but I feel confident there are rule and regulation variations from our MLB compared to their professional leagues.



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That's just silly. An outfield fence is not part of the "rules". Just like pool tables have diff sizes, so do MLB parks. However, the bases, the mound., the rubber, the bases, the balls, etc is set in stone. And fake grass or real are field conditions as well, just like some places use Simonis cloth and others use championship. No big deal.

The rules however are the same other than the DH, and from HS to college to MLB, the rules are pretty much the same. And the important rules like strikes, balls, outs, how runs score, tag ups, etc, are the same for 7 yr olds as they are for MLB, because unlike the APA, baseball does not need to "dumb" down the game so some kid can win a game by getting lucky, if they learn the game from an early age so it is ingrained In them up the baseball chain.

So, there are world standardized rules for pool, just many leagues don't follow them. Most apa players I know prefer to play by world standardized rules, nobody is going to heart broken about not slopping in a ball, or getting the choice of balls after the break.


It is part of the rules, for MLB anyhow. There are minimums.

I know what you're saying, though. I was shocked to find out that ball in hand for 8 ball was anywhere on the table. I never played like that. Hey, no problem...I was the one that had ball in hand so it was a pleasant surprise. :) But I think we're actually in agreement that there's no need for the specifics of the equipment to be set in stone, within reason, because it doesn't matter all that much, and it's never going to happen anyhow. My point was that in anything from MLB to football to tennis, the venue always makes a difference, so it's not that much different equipment wise than billiards.

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I'll also say that chess as we know it is very, very old. But we're still mucking with the rules and conditions. I believe it was Magnus Carlsen that recently lost a game because he was confused as to the time controls. They've also started making rules like "no agreed upon draw before move 40" to prevent the situation where two guys won't gain much from winning, but really don't want to loose. What they want to do is dive into a boring, Berlin endgame, and grab a quick draw. Not anymore.

And opening theory has gotten so advanced and deep that guys like Bobby Fischer started pushing what's now known as Chess960, and it's actually getting a little traction. Yasser Seirawan is pushing yet another version of chess. And then there's Bug House...

Football has made significant scoring changes over time as well. I think Golf might be the only sport where the basic rules have changed very little over the years.
 
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