what is a gold crown 1 worth

[PoolTable911]

le911;5514363]Again I am not trying to be a dick. But where do you get the info that no slate was had after 1950? Did someone tell you or did you read it somewhere. I am very curious in the history of these tables. Maybe Mr Bond will chime in. He has a ton of info at his disposal.

Because all of the later Cenntennials, Anniversaries, Sport kings, GC 1's, 2's and early 3's came with Brunstone. Other table manufacturers that bought from Brunswick also used Brunstone like AMF, Saunier Willham and others.[/QUOTE]

Where do you get the info? And don't tell me Indians smoke signaled you. :wink:

 

[BBC]

Anniversary Slate

My 1953 Anniversary has real Slates, Pinned and Doweled...

I moved it from original home owner in 1991, was re-clothed once, Rosewood rails and came with a original Green Cover Service manual dated 1953.

The Gulley system was in like new condition.

BBC

 

[realkingcobra]

My 1953 Anniversary has real Slates, Pinned and Doweled...

I moved it from original home owner in 1991, was re-clothed once, Rosewood rails and came with a original Green Cover Service manual dated 1953.

The Gulley system was in like new condition.

BBC
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Those slates in the first picture leaning against the wall?....are brunstone, and they have spray glue on them which indicates at least a second hack job recovery, and that frame is a GC frame, Anniversary frames are 45 degreed off under the edge of the frame the full length, not just at the ends like that frame is.

 

[bradsh98]

This might be worth a read:


History of Brunstone

 

[fastone371]

This might be worth a read:


History of Brunstone

That article is very interesting although there appears to be a misprint as it shows Brunstone was manufactured from 1981-1984. My GCI was most definitely manufactured before 1981 and it definitely has Brunstone.

 

[bradsh98]

That article is very interesting although there appears to be a misprint as it shows Brunstone was manufactured from 1981-1984. My GCI was most definitely manufactured before 1981 and it definitely has Brunstone.

How do you know that it's Brunstone? Because someone here said it?

After the research that I performed this morning, I would venture a guess that I have never actually seen Brunstone. In fact, I might also venture a guess that what we've all previously thought of as Brunstone is actually slate.

I found an article in the Brunswick Library (dated 1945), documenting the movement of slate forming operations from Pennsylvania to Virginia. While this does not suggest that the slate was actually being mined in Pennsylvania, I would guess that it was harvested somewhat locally. There is written documentation to suggest that Brunswick used Vermont slate from the 1800's to the mid-1900's. There is also written documentation that suggests that Brunswick began using Italian slate in the mid-1900's.

The following website discusses some of the different types of slate, including variation by region. Most interesting, are the comments about Brazilian slate:

Another interesting read

In particular, the following statements about Brazilian slate seems very much in line with what we (seemingly mistakenly) refer to as Brunstone:

Slate, and slate-like stone, is produced in other parts of the world as well. There is a tremendous volume of black slate quarried in Spain. China has been exporting slate for a number of years. More recently we have seen Brazilian slate enter the US market, and even some material from India. To date we have chosen not to import or promote roofing slate from these regions for a variety of quality related reasons, including:
Prevalence of oxidizable iron pyrite inclusions that can rust and discolor a roof or create holes in a slate
High carbonate content which can cause the slates to turn white
Exceptionally brittle or glassy stone that is difficult to cut
High amounts of broken slates
Inconsistent product
High water absorption leading to delamination
Debate about whether some material being marketed as slate is slate. The Galacian & Spanish Slate Association has published a very interesting report on some of the slate being produced in Brazil and how it differs from other sources. http://www.spanishslateuk.com/slate_from_brazil.asp


Based on this information, I think we may be able to assume that Brunswick may have sourced slate from some different areas, which could be what we have all come to (mistakenly) accept as Brunstone, since it varies so greatly from what we know to be good quality slate.

In looking through all of the available Brunswick catalogs, in the Brunswick History Library, there was never any mention of Brunstone until 1981. In fact, all Gold Crown tables, from 1961-Present, tout the use of 1" slate. Tables that were offered with Brunstone, were clearly labeled as such.

 

[realkingcobra]

How do you know that it's Brunstone? Because someone here said it?

After the research that I performed this morning, I would venture a guess that I have never actually seen Brunstone. In fact, I might also venture a guess that what we've all previously thought of as Brunstone is actually slate.

I found an article in the Brunswick Library (dated 1945), documenting the movement of slate forming operations from Pennsylvania to Virginia. While this does not suggest that the slate was actually being mined in Pennsylvania, I would guess that it was harvested somewhat locally. There is written documentation to suggest that Brunswick used Vermont slate from the 1800's to the mid-1900's. There is also written documentation that suggests that Brunswick began using Italian slate in the mid-1900's.

The following website discusses some of the different types of slate, including variation by region. Most interesting, are the comments about Brazilian slate:

Another interesting read

In particular, the following statements about Brazilian slate seems very much in line with what we (seemingly mistakenly) refer to as Brunstone:

Slate, and slate-like stone, is produced in other parts of the world as well. There is a tremendous volume of black slate quarried in Spain. China has been exporting slate for a number of years. More recently we have seen Brazilian slate enter the US market, and even some material from India. To date we have chosen not to import or promote roofing slate from these regions for a variety of quality related reasons, including:
Prevalence of oxidizable iron pyrite inclusions that can rust and discolor a roof or create holes in a slate
High carbonate content which can cause the slates to turn white
Exceptionally brittle or glassy stone that is difficult to cut
High amounts of broken slates
Inconsistent product
High water absorption leading to delamination
Debate about whether some material being marketed as slate is slate. The Galacian & Spanish Slate Association has published a very interesting report on some of the slate being produced in Brazil and how it differs from other sources. http://www.spanishslateuk.com/slate_from_brazil.asp


Based on this information, I think we may be able to assume that Brunswick may have sourced slate from some different areas, which could be what we have all come to (mistakenly) accept as Brunstone, since it varies so greatly from what we know to be good quality slate.

In looking through all of the available Brunswick catalogs, in the Brunswick History Library, there was never any mention of Brunstone until 1981. In fact, all Gold Crown tables, from 1961-Present, tout the use of 1" slate. Tables that were offered with Brunstone, were clearly labeled as such.

One of the best ways to tell the difference between slate and brunstone is that brunstone lacks the grinding marks that slate clearly shows....look at that if you're not sure.

 

[timsmcm]

Rkc will there be machine marks on both sides of the slate rock or just the playing surfaces? Can you tell by looking at the bottom of an assembled table?

 

[realkingcobra]

Rkc will there be machine marks on both sides of the slate rock or just the playing surfaces? Can you tell by looking at the bottom of an assembled table?

Both sides, just not a finish grind on the bottom side.

 

[tjohnson]

After the research that I performed this morning, I would venture a guess that I have never actually seen Brunstone. In fact, I might also venture a guess that what we've all previously thought of as Brunstone is actually slate.

Excellent post! Some thoughts:

1. Do we have any evidence that the term "Brunstone" was ever used prior to 1981? This link indicates the name Brunstone was trademarked in 1981 for a "resin-impregnated" sandstone. Geoff's research into the Brunswick catalogs shows that 1981 was the earliest that Brunswick used the name.

2. My GC 1 does not have slate, it's definitely some kind of sandstone. Perhaps Brunswick was just calling everything from this time "slate" because, well, pool tables are supposed to have slate beds, not sandstone.

3. Maybe we should be referring to these early Brunswick sandstone beds simply as sandstone and save the later term "Brunstone" for those post-1981 tables that have resin-impregnated sandstone?

 

[bradsh98]

Excellent post! Some thoughts:

1. Do we have any evidence that the term "Brunstone" was ever used prior to 1981? This link indicates the name Brunstone was trademarked in 1981 for a "resin-impregnated" sandstone. Geoff's research into the Brunswick catalogs shows that 1981 was the earliest that Brunswick used the name.

2. My GC 1 does not have slate, it's definitely some kind of sandstone. Perhaps Brunswick was just calling everything from this time "slate" because, well, pool tables are supposed to have slate beds, not sandstone.

3. Maybe we should be referring to these early Brunswick sandstone beds simply as sandstone and save the later term "Brunstone" for those post-1981 tables that have resin-impregnated sandstone?

Being that the vast majority of the tables that I work on are Gold Crowns, I have an interest in when this 'sandstone' was actually used. In fact, the majority of the tables that I work on are Gold Crown I's, making this even more interesting. This is what prompted me to do some research.

I have a Gold Crown I that has the 'sandstone' bed. I also have another one that has a slate bed. I recently sold one from the same pool room, which also has a slate bed. Though most of the Gold Crown I's that I work on have a 'sandstone' bed, I have worked on a number of them that have slate beds. All of the Gold Crown III's that I've worked on have had slate beds. I just recently set up a Gold Crown II that had a slate bed, and also a single-owner Anniversary, which had a slate bed, and the original cloth installed.

So, I am curious of what time period Brunswick actually used 'sandstone' as a substitute for slate. From the tables that I've worked on, I would guess that it would have been the earliest of the Gold Crown I's, as all of the later ones had slate. The later ones that I'm referring to all had shortened extruded aluminum hinges on the skirts, and some have leveling feet, and the pocketed rail nuts, though not all.

I know that Glen suggested that all tables produced from the 50's to the mid-70's used Brunstone (or whatever we should properly refer to it as), but I have to disagree, based on what I have seen. I have worked on a few single-owner tables from within this time period, which had the original cloth installed, with slate beds.

 

[fastone371]

How do you know that it's Brunstone? Because someone here said it?

.

Because when I was putting my table together I noticed it was kind of a tan color rather than a dark grey like slate is. I still have 3 pieces of slate from and old 8' table I had before my Gold Crown and the slate from that 8' was much darker than what I believe is Brunstone on my Gold Crown.

Its the best picture I have at the moment but if you look at the pocket area and the spots where the "slate" is ground for the counter mechanism clearance you can the tan color, as far as I know slate is not tan like that.

 

[rikdee]

Because when I was putting my table together I noticed it was kind of a tan color rather than a dark grey like slate is. I still have 3 pieces of slate from and old 8' table I had before my Gold Crown and the slate from that 8' was much darker than what I believe is Brunstone on my Gold Crown.


I just looked at the underside of my table. The stone is a definite dark grey with faint machining marks running in a lazy radius pattern although the undersurface feels quite smooth to the hand. The table itself, a late build GCI, has all the later design features such as short apron extrusions, blind rail nuts, and leveling feet. So, based on findings, it appears to be a slate bed on this one.

 

[bradsh98]

Because when I was putting my table together I noticed it was kind of a tan color rather than a dark grey like slate is. I still have 3 pieces of slate from and old 8' table I had before my Gold Crown and the slate from that 8' was much darker than what I believe is Brunstone on my Gold Crown.

Its the best picture I have at the moment but if you look at the pocket area and the spots where the "slate" is ground for the counter mechanism clearance you can the tan color, as far as I know slate is not tan like that.

I wasn't questioning what your table actually was, more of the name, 'Brunstone', as Brunswick did not trademark the 'Brunstone' name until 1981. Now, this is not to say that they didn't use 'Brunstone' prior to 1981, referring to it as slate. However, there is nothing in print that suggests the use of 'Brunstone' prior to 1981. Between 1981-1984, the tables that were offered with 1 1/8" 'Brunstone' were also offered with 1" slate.

I do find it interesting though, that the document that I sourced from Brunswick states that 'Brunstone' was only in use from 1981 to 1984. I could not find any documentation that suggests that 'Brunstone' was used prior to 1981, even under a different name. Though, quite clearly, the tables that we are referring to as using 'Brunstone', are definitely not the same slate that we are used to seeing. Whether they are actually a different composition of slate, or the early form of 'Brunstone', prior to the trademarked name, remains to be seen. One thing is certain though, the differences are easily identifiable.

 

[fastone371]

I wasn't questioning what your table actually was, more of the name, 'Brunstone', as Brunswick did not trademark the 'Brunstone' name until 1981. Now, this is not to say that they didn't use 'Brunstone' prior to 1981, referring to it as slate. However, there is nothing in print that suggests the use of 'Brunstone' prior to 1981. Between 1981-1984, the tables that were offered with 1 1/8" 'Brunstone' were also offered with 1" slate.

I do find it interesting though, that the document that I sourced from Brunswick states that 'Brunstone' was only in use from 1981 to 1984. I could not find any documentation that suggests that 'Brunstone' was used prior to 1981, even under a different name. Though, quite clearly, the tables that we are referring to as using 'Brunstone', are definitely not the same slate that we are used to seeing. Whether they are actually a different composition of slate, or the early form of 'Brunstone', prior to the trademarked name, remains to be seen. One thing is certain though, the differences are easily identifiable.

OK, got it now. Seems the easiest way to determine what it is is by whether or not it has a radius on the pocket shelves.

 

[realkingcobra]

I wasn't questioning what your table actually was, more of the name, 'Brunstone', as Brunswick did not trademark the 'Brunstone' name until 1981. Now, this is not to say that they didn't use 'Brunstone' prior to 1981, referring to it as slate. However, there is nothing in print that suggests the use of 'Brunstone' prior to 1981. Between 1981-1984, the tables that were offered with 1 1/8" 'Brunstone' were also offered with 1" slate.

I do find it interesting though, that the document that I sourced from Brunswick states that 'Brunstone' was only in use from 1981 to 1984. I could not find any documentation that suggests that 'Brunstone' was used prior to 1981, even under a different name. Though, quite clearly, the tables that we are referring to as using 'Brunstone', are definitely not the same slate that we are used to seeing. Whether they are actually a different composition of slate, or the early form of 'Brunstone', prior to the trademarked name, remains to be seen. One thing is certain though, the differences are easily identifiable.

Read the GC1 manual, says backed brunstone, same as the GC2 manual. Take a close up picture of what you think is slate, post it up.

 

[realkingcobra]

Because when I was putting my table together I noticed it was kind of a tan color rather than a dark grey like slate is. I still have 3 pieces of slate from and old 8' table I had before my Gold Crown and the slate from that 8' was much darker than what I believe is Brunstone on my Gold Crown.


I just looked at the underside of my table. The stone is a definite dark grey with faint machining marks running in a lazy radius pattern although the undersurface feels quite smooth to the hand. The table itself, a late build GCI, has all the later design features such as short apron extrusions, blind rail nuts, and leveling feet. So, based on findings, it appears to be a slate bed on this one.

Sloped pocket shelf?

 

[rikdee]

Sloped pocket shelf?

Yes, the machined pocket reliefs are not cut 90 degrees to the top surface of the stone but instead the fall of the stone is slightly angled away from the top surface suggestive of a mini “water fall”.

 

[realkingcobra]

Yes, the machined pocket reliefs are not cut 90 degrees to the top surface of the stone but instead the fall of the stone is slightly angled away from the top surface suggestive of a mini “water fall”.

That's brunstone then.

 

[tjohnson]

One of the best ways to tell the difference between slate and brunstone is that brunstone lacks the grinding marks that slate clearly shows....look at that if you're not sure.

Question to RKC: In one of fastone's brunstone pictures there appear to be semi-circular grinding marks. Am I seeing that correctly? If so, is the presence or lack of grinding marks a reliable indicator?