SBE + other Amateur events

jwh1942 said:
u12armrest: You are 100% on the money with your post. Defenders like Lyn instead of answering you that in spite of Shane placing 2nd at 2015 Houston Open where Jeremy Jones took 1st, he must be considered an amateur. That ignores the fact that at that September 2015 tournament he placed ahead of Tony Chohan (3rd), Alex Pagulayan (4th), Dennis Orcollo and Richie Richeson (tied for 9th), Styler Woodward (13th).............and that's only one example as he made $11,579 in 2015 and stands at $12,372 this year to date. Look it up and rest assured that you have a legitimate complaint. People that don't have Lyn's base of knowledge have no way to understand all that and may naively think that it is truly an amateur tournament and that's unfair to real amateurs. Don't know what the answer is about ratings, but wanted to give you assurance that you are not wrong, far from it my friend.
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First of all, Allen Hopkins is the sole decider of who plays in the SBE Open. Pissing and moaning about how good Shane Winters is on this forum is just more verbal masterbation. It isn't going to change anything! Where do you see me defending him He's a pro player plain and simple. He just happened to "grow up" in our pool rooms. Would I be happier if he didn't play? Probably but Allen decided to allow him. End of Story!! I paid my money and took my chance. Pehaps if the members of this forum all wrote Allen a letter of complaint regarding some of the players he allows to enter, something MIGHT change,

Just to add a slight variation to this thread, one of the matches I played in the Super Seniors, my opponent and his "friend" complained I was too good to play and was a professional. Don't think anyone would mistake me for SVB or even Shane Winters! Especially at 72!

Lyn
 
jwh1942 said:
u12armrest: You are 100% on the money with your post. Defenders like Lyn instead of answering you that in spite of Shane placing 2nd at 2015 Houston Open where Jeremy Jones took 1st, he must be considered an amateur. That ignores the fact that at that September 2015 tournament he placed ahead of Tony Chohan (3rd), Alex Pagulayan (4th), Dennis Orcollo and Richie Richeson (tied for 9th), Styler Woodward (13th).............and that's only one example as he made $11,579 in 2015 and stands at $12,372 this year to date. Look it up and rest assured that you have a legitimate complaint. People that don't have Lyn's base of knowledge have no way to understand all that and may naively think that it is truly an amateur tournament and that's unfair to real amateurs. Don't know what the answer is about ratings, but wanted to give you assurance that you are not wrong, far from it my friend.
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what people like you don't understand is the top amature in any sport/game is expected to play pro speed , golf has numeras pro level players in thier top amature events where the average player has zero chance of winning a match never mind the whole thing
Like golf which has many handicap tourneys for players who don't want to compeat against the best Amatures pool has the same thing
If you don't want to compeat against the best you should not enter its your choice no ones breaking anyone's arm for them to enter

1
 
one stroke said:
what people like you don't understand is the top amature in any sport/game is expected to play pro speed , golf has numeras pro level players in thier top amature events where the average player has zero chance of winning a match never mind the whole thing
Like golf which has many handicap tourneys for players who don't want to compeat against the best Amatures pool has the same thing
If you don't want to compeat against the best you should not enter its your choice no ones breaking anyone's arm for them to enter

1
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Thats why they entered an AMATEUR EVENT - to not compete against the best. What is so hard to understand?
There is a difference between pro speed and pro, Winters is a pro, not "pro speed" Just ask him
 
one stroke said:
what people like you don't understand is the top amature in any sport/game is expected to play pro speed , golf has numeras pro level players in thier top amature events where the average player has zero chance of winning a match never mind the whole thing
Like golf which has many handicap tourneys for players who don't want to compeat against the best Amatures pool has the same thing
If you don't want to compeat against the best you should not enter its your choice no ones breaking anyone's arm for them to enter

1
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Your analogy is not a very good one. The golfers who play at a pro level, but do not compete on tour, are amateurs because they need to retain their amateur status. The main reason is because they have a college scholarship. Once they graduate from college, they will turn pro if they possess the skills to do so. It would be dumb to turn down money if the only way you will make it is by declaring yourself a professional.

What most pool players don't understand is how much better the pro golfers play than someone who is a scratch golfer. People think if you play scratch then you must be really good. That is true when compared to your average club player. I have a friend who played on the PGA Tour. He kept his handicap for a year and it was +7. That means he would spot a scratch golfer 7 strokes a round.
 
jasonlaus said:
Thats why they entered an AMATEUR EVENT - to not compete against the best. What is so hard to understand?
There is a difference between pro speed and pro, Winters is a pro, not "pro speed" Just ask him
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He called himself an ELITE PRO not just a pro.
 
The problem is...

Most pool players, rate the speed of their fellow players, based on their own ability.
It all goes down the toilet from there.

So basically, it's the same thing as if some talented newbie came to the local tournament, and robbed the event.

1st, they all get mad that someone stole what they felt was THEIR opportunity to make money.
2nd, they all get mad that never in a billion years, will they play as good as that guy, and are jealous.
3rd, they then try to knock the guy wherever he may go so that he learns a lesson.

Forget about the fact that the amateur who plays good, just might have sacrificed every opportunity in life to get as good as they are.
Crybabies don't care about that.
They want good players to disappear so they, with their mediocre skills, and their full time jobs, stand a chance to do well.

Get over it already.
If you don't think you can win the whole thing, DONT PLAY AND STOP CRYING!
You certainly don't hear the top shelf amateurs crying about how some low ranked amateur got into the tournament and is going to ruin their day. Why is that.

Know your damn place already.
If you aren't good enough, practice and try to get better, or quit.
Stop the crying.

Fact is, most of the people who are crying, would still never win the event if the guy who won it, never played. FACT.

As for the guy who won, tooting his own horn, I'd be all for stripping him of his title, and spreading the wealth to those who suffered a defeat at his hands.
Simply because he opened his mouth. You wanted elite pro status, here ya go. You got it!


As for the people who are crying.
Get over yourselves already.
You aren't gonna win, and never will.

The ones who will win in the future? The ones who don't cry and look at this whole scenario as a challenge to get better, who strive for excellence. That's the truth.
 
SUPERSTAR said:
The problem is...

Most pool players, rate the speed of their fellow players, based on their own ability.
It all goes down the toilet from there.

So basically, it's the same thing as if some talented newbie came to the local tournament, and robbed the event.

1st, they all get mad that someone stole what they felt was THEIR opportunity to make money.
2nd, they all get mad that never in a billion years, will they play as good as that guy, and are jealous.
3rd, they then try to knock the guy wherever he may go so that he learns a lesson.

Forget about the fact that the amateur who plays good, just might have sacrificed every opportunity in life to get as good as they are.
Crybabies don't care about that.
They want good players to disappear so they, with their mediocre skills, and their full time jobs, stand a chance to do well.

Get over it already.
If you don't think you can win the whole thing, DONT PLAY AND STOP CRYING!
You certainly don't hear the top shelf amateurs crying about how some low ranked amateur got into the tournament and is going to ruin their day. Why is that.

Know your damn place already.
If you aren't good enough, practice and try to get better, or quit.
Stop the crying.

Fact is, most of the people who are crying, would still never win the event if the guy who won it, never played. FACT.

As for the guy who won, tooting his own horn, I'd be all for stripping him of his title, and spreading the wealth to those who suffered a defeat at his hands.
Simply because he opened his mouth. You wanted elite pro status, here ya go. You got it!


As for the people who are crying.
Get over yourselves already.
You aren't gonna win, and never will.

The ones who will win in the future? The ones who don't cry and look at this whole scenario as a challenge to get better, who strive for excellence. That's the truth.
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Drinking????
 
It's not at all about being afraid to play with the big boys. There's a time and a place for that. For me, I would be flat out ticked off if I drove for a day to get to a Single elimination tournament, that was advertised as an amateur event, and then I drew a known pro level player in the first round. It would be a bit easier to swallow if this was your typical double elimination event but it is not.

If you want to play pros -- you play in an open/professional event.

This pretty much happens every year with this event. It makes you wonder if they let these guys sneak by them on purpose. I can't come up with any other explanation.
 
BasementDweller said:
It's not at all about being afraid to play with the big boys. There's a time and a place for that. For me, I would be flat out ticked off if I drove for a day to get to a Single elimination tournament, that was advertised as an amateur event, and then I drew a known pro level player in the first round. It would be a bit easier to swallow if this was your typical double elimination event but it is not.

If you want to play pros -- you play in an open/professional event.

This pretty much happens every year with this event. It makes you wonder if they let these guys sneak by them on purpose. I can't come up with any other explanation.
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The problem, IMO, is that without using some objective standard it just comes down to Allen's (or whoever he designates) gut judgment about who is and who isn't an amateur and who is and who isn't a pro. While we all agree that SVB, Alex, Ko, etc. are on the "pro" side, and bangers like me who can't run out 3 fooking balls are amateurs, the breakdown of consensus will always be at the high end of amateur.

I, for one, hope Fargo Rate gets broad support and acceptance so that promoters could simply pick a cut off line and amateurs looking to play an event could look at the website and see if they are prepared to play in an event that allows people of whatever skill level that is play.
 
In pool, there is no distinct designation between "pro" and "amateur", since amateur events pay out prize money as well.

The same goes for the players. Whether one is an amateur or pro is mostly based upon reputation. Obviously, everyone considers guys like SVB and Johnny Archer to be pros. However, there is a large gray area surrounding the dividing line between pro and amateur, since many players compete in both types of events.

Therefore, since there is no governing body to lay down rules on what constitutes being an amateur, we need to have divisions or flights to separate players into groups, whether it be Fargo Ratings or whatever. The only problem I see with this is that, again, everyone will have a different opinion on what Fargo rating one must have to be considered a pro. But at least there would be some measuring stick for someone to look at and say, "Gee, this tournament is rated at <800, there's no way I would have a chance to win any money". Again, a governing body would be very handy in this instance. It's a shame there is not one who has the respect of the players and promoters of the game.
 
Str8PoolMan said:
In pool, there is no distinct designation between "pro" and "amateur", since amateur events pay out prize money as well.

The same goes for the players. Whether one is an amateur or pro is mostly based upon reputation. Obviously, everyone considers guys like SVB and Johnny Archer to be pros. However, there is a large gray area surrounding the dividing line between pro and amateur, since many players compete in both types of events.

Therefore, since there is no governing body to lay down rules on what constitutes being an amateur, we need to have divisions or flights to separate players into groups, whether it be Fargo Ratings or whatever. The only problem I see with this is that, again, everyone will have a different opinion on what Fargo rating one must have to be considered a pro. But at least there would be some measuring stick for someone to look at and say, "Gee, this tournament is rated at <800, there's no way I would have a chance to win any money". Again, a governing body would be very handy in this instance. It's a shame there is not one who has the respect of the players and promoters of the game.
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Really? Number 33 in the country on Fargo rate(747) sounds like a chump to me:rolleyes:
 
nine_ball6970 said:
Your analogy is not a very good one. The golfers who play at a pro level, but do not compete on tour, are amateurs because they need to retain their amateur status. The main reason is because they have a college scholarship. Once they graduate from college, they will turn pro if they possess the skills to do so. It would be dumb to turn down money if the only way you will make it is by declaring yourself a professional.

What most pool players don't understand is how much better the pro golfers play than someone who is a scratch golfer. People think if you play scratch then you must be really good. That is true when compared to your average club player. I have a friend who played on the PGA Tour. He kept his handicap for a year and it was +7. That means he would spot a scratch golfer 7 strokes a round.
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It is if you consider aside from the top soon to be pro's the vast majority of the entrants are players who have zero chance of cashing ,, they play simply for the love of the game and to test their ability against players of a much better skill level ,

1
 
Can anyone cite a year, where a relative MID LEVEL amateur player, who didn't have an established track record of regional or national amateur success, actually won the Open Amateur Barbox expo event?

Any year will do.

I can only think of ONE amateur, who didn't have any established track record in tournament play at the time.

His name was Rodney Morris. And I am talking about WAAAY back in the day.

And he too could have lost along the way.
Local guy nicknamed "Pineapple" had him on the ropes and dogged it.
Is that Rodney's fault?
He then went on to become the Rodney we know today and his resume speaks for itself.

Middle road amateur guys are living in a pipe dream if you thing that you can win this thing without playing absolutely jam up, which in all reality, is BETTER than you are capable of playing.

Trust me, no one has ever sucked their way into the finals.
Yes, it's an amateur event.
But the fact is, the top tier amateurs on the verge/cusp of "pro", are going to win this event each and every time.
 
one stroke said:
It is if you consider aside from the top soon to be pro's the vast majority of the entrants are players who have zero chance of cashing ,, they play simply for the love of the game and to test their ability against players of a much better skill level ,

1
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You said pro level players in golf. If they are that caliber, then they will compete as pros in the future. Amateurs in golf do not make any money. They do it for the love of the game and a chance at a trophy. If they are good enough to make money, then they turn pro.

No hacks qualify for the US Amateur in golf. Most players who qualify have a chance at winning the whole thing. It is not an easy tournament to qualify for.
 
SUPERSTAR said:
Can anyone cite a year, where a relative MID LEVEL amateur player, who didn't have an established track record of regional or national amateur success, actually won the Open Amateur Barbox expo event?

Any year will do.

I can only think of ONE amateur, who didn't have any established track record in tournament play at the time.

His name was Rodney Morris. And I am talking about WAAAY back in the day.

And he too could have lost along the way.
Local guy nicknamed "Pineapple" had him on the ropes and dogged it.
Is that Rodney's fault?
He then went on to become the Rodney we know today and his resume speaks for itself.

Middle road amateur guys are living in a pipe dream if you thing that you can win this thing without playing absolutely jam up, which in all reality, is BETTER than you are capable of playing.

Trust me, no one has ever sucked their way into the finals.
Yes, it's an amateur event.
But the fact is, the top tier amateurs on the verge/cusp of "pro", are going to win this event each and every time.
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This is just the 2016 version of this discussion. It seems like we are here every year. Lyn is right, there is no pressure to make changes by sbe. except that Winters is probably barred now. I wasn't there but I'm sure he had to play well and get some rolls to win. It's easy to dog it off when you got the nuts, especially short races on bar tables. At the expo, its especially hard to win races to 5 against anyone in that final bracket. I don't know Tyler Steinhaus, who was winter's opponent in the finals, but I'm 100% positive he's one helluva player.
 
SUPERSTAR said:
Can anyone cite a year, where a relative MID LEVEL amateur player, who didn't have an established track record of regional or national amateur success, actually won the Open Amateur Barbox expo event?

Any year will do.

Trust me, no one has ever sucked their way into the finals. Yes, it's an amateur event.
But the fact is, the top tier amateurs on the verge/cusp of "pro", are going to win this event each and every time.
Click to expand...

Star,

2014 Sam Gilmer
2012 Lee Holt
2011 Bucky Souventhong
2010 Matt Clatterbuck

Have you ever heard of Sam? Or Lee? Bucky is a regional player from Binghamton, NY. Believe Matt is from Virginia.

With Alex winning last year and Shane this year, it's time for Allen to pay a bit more attention to the entries. Perhaps removing the "amateur" from the event title would sadly suffice.

Lyn
 
cardiac kid said:
Star,

2014 Sam Gilmer
2012 Lee Holt
2011 Bucky Souventhong
2010 Matt Clatterbuck

Have you ever heard of Sam? Or Lee? Bucky is a regional player from Binghamton, NY. Believe Matt is from Virginia.

With Alex winning last year and Shane this year, it's time for Allen to pay a bit more attention to the entries. Perhaps removing the "amateur" from the event title would sadly suffice.

Lyn
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Lee used to hang around Philly before he moved. He shot straight.

Bucky groomed himself on the Joss, but for a while there, he just couldn't seem to win a tournament. Always placed high though. Against tough competition.

Matt played jam up, but haven't heard much about him recently.
Never heard about Sam, but honestly, I really stopped paying attention around 6 years ago.

Of the three I know of, I don't think any could be considered a MID level amateur.
These guys all played jam up on big tables.
Bar tables, it's anybody's game.
I would assume Sam probably played jam up also.

That's just how the expo is.
There are no Cinderella stories.
No bums have ever won.
 
cardiac kid said:
Star,

2014 Sam Gilmer
2012 Lee Holt
2011 Bucky Souventhong
2010 Matt Clatterbuck

Have you ever heard of Sam? Or Lee? Bucky is a regional player from Binghamton, NY. Believe Matt is from Virginia.

With Alex winning last year and Shane this year, it's time for Allen to pay a bit more attention to the entries. Perhaps removing the "amateur" from the event title would sadly suffice.

Lyn
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I may be wrong, but to me all this sounds like a bunch of sour grapes from a bunch of beaters. 1000 players, must be doing something right no??? Also it's my belief once you play pool good enough ( and I am not talking ANYWHERE NEAR PRO LEVEL ) you play good enough to where ANYONE CAN PLAY GOOD ENOUGH TO WIN A SHORT SET ON A BAR BOX! . If you dont, then just stay home, watch you dvd's, take your CTE lessons or whatever, practice, pray, play, till your good enough to meet those standards - or just come play, have a good time and enjoy the experience, but just don't beech. If you choose to be a Nit and beech do us all a favor and just stay at your pool room - telling everyone how you would have robbed the tournament if gas wasn't at $2.00 a gallon, the tolls weren't $5.00, and the hotel room you were gonna split 5 ways wasn't $20.00. Thanks again. And no Cardiac this was not directed at you, just happened to pic your post to quote.
 
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