Are League Playoffs Fair?

[lorider]

Teams or individuals? How much? How many teams in one individual league?



That's great that you feel that you have gotten a good value and a great experience. Have you ever played in a well run BCAPL league?

I have never played in a well run bcapl league....but I played in a crappy one though.

The lo also ran a poker league up in the front of the pool room the same nights he had pool leagues.. People were playing both at the same time. A lot of times when I was some ones turn to play pool their captain would yell their name....that person would yell back ...skip me this round I will make it up next round. We played a round robin format.the poker players would want to come and play all their pool matches back to back. Got tired of tat crap.

Oh yea. The league folded after he had no money to send the 1st place team to nationals. Seems he spent.it on personal things.

 

[sbpoolleague]

The Top Shooter for the session get s $50 and a trophy. The players on the the four playoff teams split their winnings. 1st, 2nd and 3rd teams get a trophy, and all the players on the winning team get individual trophies.

Most sessions are either 14 or 15 weeks. Our teams pay $45 each week, we usually have each player who played that week pay $9 each, the ones who didn't play a match don't pay anything that week. But we all get to use the practice tables, so we all have a night of pool. Like I said, a good value.

By my estimation only $2800 of $8800 is going back to your 14-team league.

Still think you are getting a good value?

 

[justadub]

By my estimation only $2800 of $8800 is going back to your 14-team league.

Still think you are getting a good value?

YES!

Again, I'm not worrying about what the LO makes, and I'm not worrying about what the APA makes. I hope they make a ton of money.

I get to play pool very inexpensively, with a structured format.

For a league that isn't designed as a cash league, I think ours is pretty decent. I get plenty of value for what little I pay.

 

[jojopiff]

By my estimation only $2800 of $8800 is going back to your 14-team league.

Still think you are getting a good value?

How much did you have to pay for your league? It's rhetorical, don't answer.
Do you make a living off running your pool league? It's rhetorical, don't answer.

I run a Non-profit BCA league and I do everything for free (only 8 teams so not much work). Nobody makes any money who "works" for this league. I think President gets a few bucks and if you run it you can charge like $1.25 per player per week. So, by and large, no money in our little BCA league.

I also play APA and am very good friends with the gentleman who just purchased it a little over a year ago. I don't have intimate knowledge of the workings but I know what he paid (Central Colorado, like 500 teams-ish) and it's a number. I have no problem with people running a business the way they see fit to make a living and recoup their cost of purchasing the league.

I've never understood the comparisons of BCA & APA. Aside from they're both pool, they couldn't be more different in every imaginable way especially from a business perspective.

I get not liking the APA payouts, that's a legitimate gripe but you have to pay something for the business. You can simply start a BCA league (here anyways) with no up front cost, much less several hundred thousand dollars.

 

[Celophanewrap]

By my estimation only $2800 of $8800 is going back to your 14-team league.

Still think you are getting a good value?

Just curious SB, how much do pay out to your teams that qualify for your national tournament? How may of your teams qualify to play?

 

[sbpoolleague]

Just curious SB, how much do pay out to your teams that qualify for your national tournament? How may of your teams qualify to play?

Unlike the APA, the BCAPL does not limit participation in their team and singles National tournaments to only the local and regional tourney winners. All teams (and all individuals) qualify to compete. Each year on average our league sends 6 teams for the team tourneys, 20 individuals for the singles tourneys, and 3 doubles teams.

Because of this, our league does not structure its payouts to pay for the winning teams to go to Vegas. Often the winning team doesn't want to go to Vegas. We simply pay out money to the top players in the league and the top teams in the league, and they can use that money towards the Nationals if they wish. The league assists with entry forms, hotel reservations, and transportation for any player or team that needs it.

Our entire budget is on our website for anyone to look at (I'd like to see an APA league do that!!), but I will give you the highlights of our most recent season.

$30,000 in league fees.
$12,190 paid out in total to 60 players (top 30 in two divisions). 1st place $800.
$3,750 paid out in total to 8 teams (top 4 teams in two divisions). 1st place $1,000.
$1,875 paid out in total to the top 4 teams in the team playoffs. 1st place $1,000.
$3,500 paid out in 3 end-of-season tournaments. 1st place $100, $150, $500 for the three tourneys.

Between the individual payouts, team payouts, and tourney payouts, our top team will get over $3,600. That will cover transportation, lodging, and entry fee into the National team tourney, and each player will have about $150/day spending money for meals, etc.

So in total that's $21,315 paid out in cash out of $30,000. Over 71%.

And that's not including $1,800 in trophies a $3,000 banquet.

Oh and our weekly league fee is $10 and everyone gets one free drink per match.

 

[HawaiianEye]

A friend of mine won an APA tournament and what he thought was a couple thousand dollars or so. Turned out the "advertisement" for the tourney left off the "fine print".

Several hundred or more of the payout prize was in "coupons", where you had to buy something and get a discount. The discount money was considered part of the winnings...should you buy some crap.

Reminded me of this old Ron White story:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ovk4JNw3hAk

 

[ENGLISH!]

Unlike the APA, the BCAPL does not limit participation in their team and singles National tournaments to only the local and regional tourney winners. All teams (and all individuals) qualify to compete. Each year on average our league sends 6 teams for the team tourneys, 20 individuals for the singles tourneys, and 3 doubles teams.

Because of this, our league does not structure its payouts to pay for the winning teams to go to Vegas. Often the winning team doesn't want to go to Vegas. We simply pay out money to the top players in the league and the top teams in the league, and they can use that money towards the Nationals if they wish. The league assists with entry forms, hotel reservations, and transportation for any player or team that needs it.

Our entire budget is on our website for anyone to look at (I'd like to see an APA league do that!!), but I will give you the highlights of our most recent season.

$30,000 in league fees.
$12,190 paid out in total to 60 players (top 30 in two divisions). 1st place $800.
$3,750 paid out in total to 8 teams (top 4 teams in two divisions). 1st place $1,000.
$1,875 paid out in total to the top 4 teams in the team playoffs. 1st place $1,000.
$3,500 paid out in 3 end-of-season tournaments. 1st place $100, $150, $500 for the three tourneys.

Between the individual payouts, team payouts, and tourney payouts, our top team will get over $3,600. That will cover transportation, lodging, and entry fee into the National team tourney, and each player will have about $150/day spending money for meals, etc.

So in total that's $21,315 paid out in cash out of $30,000. Over 71%.

And that's not including $1,800 in trophies a $3,000 banquet.

Oh and our weekly league fee is $10 and everyone gets one free drink per match.

Is there a league like that in the New Orleans area.:wink:

Way way back in the day, I was playing both BCA & APA & I liked the BCA much better than the APA.

If the best playing rules from each could have been combined. way back when, one would have had a good league.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick

 

[lorider]

Our apa sends the following teams to nationals

2... 8 ball teams

2...9 ball teams

2...scotch doubles teams

1 masters team

1 jack and Jill team have sent a ladies only team when there was enough interest locally

I have no idea what the current payout is..hope to find out this summer

When I went 3 years ago our team was given 4.000.00 and our fees were 6.00.a match

It seems my team had a better deal than sb' s current teams at 3.400.00 when th 10.00 a match fees

But I guess it like comparing apples to oranges

Bottom line is I don't care what my lo makes...if I ever get to feeling like his fees are not worth the enjoyment I get out if playing spa I can always go back to money league and pay 10.00 to watch players sandbag....guys I have known and been friends with for years argue over rules and people not calling fouls on their selves.

There was just to much drama for me to enjoy playing. Even though my teams wound up I. The money most times.

Straw that broke the camels back was when one of my own team mates started b#$&&Ing about he deserved more than any one else on the team because he had more wins.

 

[APA Operator]

My beef with the APA has absolutely NOTHING to do with an APA league operating nearby. The fact is that the closest APA league to Santa Barbara is over 35 miles away. One league operator recently TRIED to get some teams going here in Santa Barbara, but local players are so happy with our league that they would never try APA here. BTW we have several players in our league that live a good distance away, and a lot of them also play in an APA league that's nearby their house (because there isn't any other type of league close by). EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM say that APA sucks. They say the rules suck. They say the payouts suck. They say the handicap system sucks. They say the ridiculous score keeping sucks. So it's not just me saying it. And it's not completely centered around this particular APA league operator.

I bet they do. If they are willing to travel 35 miles to play in a cash-heavy league, they are certainly not beginners or novice players, so it's not surprising to me that APA isn't as appealing to them as a money league. But I'd be willing to bet there's an APA division in your locations within 3 years. Your 96 players aren't the only people in Santa Barbara who enjoy the sport. There are plenty of others who would simply enjoy being part of the community. Room for everyone, right?

Maybe for a huge league, but what about for a league with just 24 teams? I bet you couldn't come close to $30K cash payout. Here's a question for you. Add up all the weekly league fees paid by all the teams you have in all of your leagues for one year. Then add up all the CASH that you paid out (not trophies) to players and teams in those leagues (do not include any tournaments that allowed other leagues than yours, eg. Nationals). Divide CASH PAYOUT by TOTAL FEES. What percentage did you get? Was it over 75%?

BTW, I know the answer already. And I also know that you won't tell me what your percentage is.

My fees (including the 50% that is my revenue) are published in my bylaws. My schedules are on my website, so anyone in my league with a calculator can figure out the numbers you're looking for. It doesn't bother me - it's not about the money with APA leagues. My league didn't get huge by paying the best players. Apparently yours hasn't either.

By the way, if I wanted to, I suppose I could raise my fees to $10/player, and I KNOW I could require the locations to provide a free drink (many already do), and I could put all of the extra $4/player into some kind of cash payback. Then my percentages per team would be comparable to yours. But why would I want to? Every cash-heavy league that has come and gone in the 20+ years that I've been an APA League Operator have shown that to be an unsuccessful business strategy. No thanks, I'll stick to fun with your friends for $6.

Not in Southern/Central California they don't. The truth is that almost all league operators DON'T. Maybe you do. That gets a rose pinned on your nose.

I don't even know what "rose pinned to your nose" means. But unless the San Diego County, Orange County, South Orange County, Riverside County, San Bernardino County, San Gabriel Valley, San Fernando Valley, Ventura County, and Kern County areas have moved out of Southern/Central California, I'd have to say you know very little about that of which you speak. All of these operators pay out cash to their players, and it's a safe bet that every one of them pays more than $30,000 a year.

What horsehockey. APA league operators don't advertise payouts for one reason; their players could then figure out how much money is being sucked up by the operators and the national organization.

Like I said, I don't hide what I make in revenue. I make 50% of the $6 my players pay in. Anyone in my league can figure out my revenue. I built my league on providing value for the $6 they pay. Apparently you built yours by paying the best players most of the money. To each his own.

 

[lorider]

Lemme.tell.you some thing SB.

In post 81 I answered your question about playing jn a well run bcapl league I guess you overlooked it because you were too busy spewing your anti apa venom.

I also posted in post 89 where my apa team received more money 3 years ago at less cost than you are bragging about currently paying.

In reality none of that matters more than a hill of beans fo me. I have nothing against any league...even yours .i think all leagues are good for pool .

I have played in bcapl...apa and Napa and would not mind playing tap ..vnea...usapl or any league.

However there are 2 leagues I will never play in. One is Sam at taps and the other is yours. I just dont like the way you and him put other leagues sown while trying to build up yours.

I would like to explain the way I am and I think there are a lot of people that think the way I do..at less in hope they do.

I have a friend who is the Napa lo.in my area. Although I play apa I formed 2 teams to play on different nights in Napa also. I got other spa players to play in both leagues also.

Although he is a friend if he had acted like you and sam at tap I would never have joined his league let alone get other players to join also.

Now this may come as a shock to you but the apa lo and Napa lo got along great. They kept each informed of tournys and such so as not to interfere with each other schedules.
Both held leagues at the same pool hall on the same nights some times ....plus a traveling money league team played there also.

The Napa lo.even joined my apa team.

You see..it is possible for 2 competing entities to coexist without all the venom being spewed by people like you and sam at tap.

You may ha e a smooth running league...you may give out a lot of pretty trophies.your pay outs may be generous. But you attitude sucks and would keep me away

 

[Celophanewrap]

Unlike the APA, the BCAPL does not limit participation in their team and singles National tournaments to only the local and regional tourney winners. All teams (and all individuals) qualify to compete. Each year on average our league sends 6 teams for the team tourneys, 20 individuals for the singles tourneys, and 3 doubles teams.

Because of this, our league does not structure its payouts to pay for the winning teams to go to Vegas. Often the winning team doesn't want to go to Vegas. We simply pay out money to the top players in the league and the top teams in the league, and they can use that money towards the Nationals if they wish. The league assists with entry forms, hotel reservations, and transportation for any player or team that needs it.

Our entire budget is on our website for anyone to look at (I'd like to see an APA league do that!!), but I will give you the highlights of our most recent season.

$30,000 in league fees.
$12,190 paid out in total to 60 players (top 30 in two divisions). 1st place $800.
$3,750 paid out in total to 8 teams (top 4 teams in two divisions). 1st place $1,000.
$1,875 paid out in total to the top 4 teams in the team playoffs. 1st place $1,000.
$3,500 paid out in 3 end-of-season tournaments. 1st place $100, $150, $500 for the three tourneys.

Between the individual payouts, team payouts, and tourney payouts, our top team will get over $3,600. That will cover transportation, lodging, and entry fee into the National team tourney, and each player will have about $150/day spending money for meals, etc.

So in total that's $21,315 paid out in cash out of $30,000. Over 71%.

And that's not including $1,800 in trophies a $3,000 banquet.

Oh and our weekly league fee is $10 and everyone gets one free drink per match.

So that 30 G's, is that over one year or 3 months, 6 months? or....?
and the $3600, is that all given to the top team in one lump at the conclusion of a tournament? or is that paid out over the course of a year or 6 months or 3 months, or...?
How many players do you have there in Santa Barbara and how many attend the banquet?
How many players per team? also,
I did look at your website briefly and so far I have a couple of questions:
Now, I've never played BCA or VNEA or others but I notice your fee to enter a tournament per individual looks to be between $60 and $120, is that correct?
So lets' say that one enthusiastic player from that $3600 team enters 5 tournaments at an average cost of $100 per, do you figure that pay back into the amount that you may have paid out? So in all reality the payout is now, because of that one player, $3100 as opposed to that $3600 that you take out of your bank account to pay out? and lets' say that 5 members of that team enter tournaments at a total cost of $1600 over several tournaments do you figure that the payout is really $2000 plus any funds actually won.
$30000 in fees really isn't much when you consider all the work that you have to do to run a league, do you have a job in addition to running The Santa Barbara Pool League? I figure that after to payouts, the banquet, any trophies, transportation and administrative costs your personal yearly take is probably less than you pay out to that top team, probably right around 10% or $3000, so, how do you do it?
and one more question, as I understand it, to play in a national tournament you don't have to qualify, you just have to enter and pay the fee, is that correct?
What would that fee be?
Sorry if I kinda ran on a bit, you have me curious. I've never really been able to ask anyone how this worked before in the BCA. Thanks

 

[jojopiff]

Lemme.tell.you some thing SB.

In post 81 I answered your question about playing jn a well run bcapl league I guess you overlooked it because you were too busy spewing your anti apa venom.

I also posted in post 89 where my apa team received more money 3 years ago at less cost than you are bragging about currently paying.

In reality none of that matters more than a hill of beans fo me. I have nothing against any league...even yours .i think all leagues are good for pool .

I have played in bcapl...apa and Napa and would not mind playing tap ..vnea...usapl or any league.

However there are 2 leagues I will never play in. One is Sam at taps and the other is yours. I just dont like the way you and him put other leagues sown while trying to build up yours.

I would like to explain the way I am and I think there are a lot of people that think the way I do..at less in hope they do.

I have a friend who is the Napa lo.in my area. Although I play apa I formed 2 teams to play on different nights in Napa also. I got other spa players to play in both leagues also.

Although he is a friend if he had acted like you and sam at tap I would never have joined his league let alone get other players to join also.

Now this may come as a shock to you but the apa lo and Napa lo got along great. They kept each informed of tournys and such so as not to interfere with each other schedules.
Both held leagues at the same pool hall on the same nights some times ....plus a traveling money league team played there also.

The Napa lo.even joined my apa team.

You see..it is possible for 2 competing entities to coexist without all the venom being spewed by people like you and sam at tap.

You may ha e a smooth running league...you may give out a lot of pretty trophies.your pay outs may be generous. But you attitude sucks and would keep me away

Precisely. It's one thing to have a dialogue about leagues (it's a damn forum) but to come on and bash any one league/person/whatever is beyond silly and simply trolling. Gloss over the good stuff and only point out the bad stuff.

It's simple, if you want to get cash back at the end of the year then don't play APA. Many don't give cash and it's nothing near what you've put in, in most cases. Play BCA, my league pays out 100%. I play both and there's something good about both, IMO. I like getting cash back in my BCA league and if we want to go to Nationals as a single or team, we can. I also like the idea of having to earn your way to Nationals/US Amateur like the APA does.

Maybe I'm part of the minority, but I'm not looking for ANY return on my money I put into any league. It's a form of entertainment and I look at that money as gone, no different than going to the movies, dinner, etc. This likely isn't right for everyone, but it's right for me.

 

[Celophanewrap]

Precisely. It's one thing to have a dialogue about leagues (it's a damn forum) but to come on and bash any one league/person/whatever is beyond silly and simply trolling. Gloss over the good stuff and only point out the bad stuff.

It's simple, if you want to get cash back at the end of the year then don't play APA. Many don't give cash and it's nothing near what you've put in, in most cases. Play BCA, my league pays out 100%. I play both and there's something good about both, IMO. I like getting cash back in my BCA league and if we want to go to Nationals as a single or team, we can. I also like the idea of having to earn your way to Nationals/US Amateur like the APA does.

Maybe I'm part of the minority, but I'm not looking for ANY return on my money I put into any league. It's a form of entertainment and I look at that money as gone, no different than going to the movies, dinner, etc. This likely isn't right for everyone, but it's right for me.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Exactly!!!

I've never really played any league but APA but it hasn't been for lack of opportunity. I have been invited to play in and I have watched many league matches and from what I have observed I really prefer APA for one main reason, the money.

I'm sure I won't find any arguement when I say that The APA has it's fair share of 'A-Holes', but so does every other league, but when you put money on the table, whether in a league situation or a gambling situation a whole new breed of 'A-Hole' is born. It doesn't happen to everybody, but to quite a few, and some people change completely. The thought or prospect of money changes people, not so much the game, but it really changes people. In The APA you really see it come to the forefront in LTC or the NTC or the Singles tournaments on certain levels when money is involved. In the BCAPL the brand of 'A-Hole' is very different I think because there is almost always the thought of cash and a pay out looming overhead.

I enjoy the level of competition in Las Vegas and the idea of the sheer amount of pool that's happening but the fact that the competing teams and singles know that there's a fair amount of cash on the line really removes the element of comradery or the idea friendship for some people. A lot of those people are there for one reason. They don't waht to know you or drink with you, they don't want to be friends, exchange stories, or even shake hands. You're an obstacle on their way to a pile of money and if they could kill you to get you out of the way, they would, and like I said, it isn't everybody, but it's enough.

In spite of all the complaints that I see here about The APA I find it, by far, friendlier and much more easy goin' than other leagues that pay out.
You might tell me, "Oh, our BCAPL isn;t like that" or something similar. That's great for you, but we both know that isn't really true on some level. The APA 'a-Hole' is much easier to deal with than the money 'A-Hole', and usually far less skilled of a player.

 

[BRussell]

Maybe I'm part of the minority, but I'm not looking for ANY return on my money I put into any league. It's a form of entertainment and I look at that money as gone, no different than going to the movies, dinner, etc. This likely isn't right for everyone, but it's right for me.

I'm glad you said that, because I feel the same way.

One of the biggest problems with pool right now is that people see it as a way to make money rather than spend money. So rather than thriving leagues and rooms and tournament promoters, we keep them on a shoe-string and drive many of them away with demands of "added money" and "100% return to the players!". We're Wal-marting pool out of business because we don't think about the long-term consequences of failing to pay decent money to the people who run leagues and rooms and tournaments.

 

[justadub]

As I said multiple times to our BCA friend, I get plenty of value for what I'm paying to play APA. At least the way it works here. I'm a very satisfied customer.

 

[sbpoolleague]

As I said multiple times to our BCA friend, I get plenty of value for what I'm paying to play APA. At least the way it works here. I'm a very satisfied customer.

Ok that's cool. Enough said. BTW does the New England USAPL league stretch up to your area?

 

[sbpoolleague]

I'm glad you said that, because I feel the same way.

One of the biggest problems with pool right now is that people see it as a way to make money rather than spend money. So rather than thriving leagues and rooms and tournament promoters, we keep them on a shoe-string and drive many of them away with demands of "added money" and "100% return to the players!". We're Wal-marting pool out of business because we don't think about the long-term consequences of failing to pay decent money to the people who run leagues and rooms and tournaments.

I kinda agree with you but my position is more that local pool leagues are a community asset. The people that run the leagues and the players in the leagues should all be prepared to sacrifice a little of their time and energy to making sure that the league is run properly and that everyone in the league is having a great time...from the top players down to the beginners. The people that do the most work can and should be compensated, but once you make it a business you tend to lose the community aspect of the league.

 

[justadub]

Ok that's cool. Enough said. BTW does the New England USAPL league stretch up to your area?

We had someone try to get it started here a few years ago. Not enough support. System looked interesting enough, but doing anything else here is going to be an uphill climb, since what we have now works out well for the bulk of us. It is a relatively small population to draw from, and getting folks playing more than a couple nights a week is gonna be a challenge.

Yes, there are plenty of APA-bashers around here, all with the same argument about how much "they" make off us. But apparently not enough to support another league system. At least at this time. We shall see if TAP continues to grow. It just might.

 

[BRussell]

I kinda agree with you but my position is more that local pool leagues are a community asset. The people that run the leagues and the players in the leagues should all be prepared to sacrifice a little of their time and energy to making sure that the league is run properly and that everyone in the league is having a great time...from the top players down to the beginners. The people that do the most work can and should be compensated, but once you make it a business you tend to lose the community aspect of the league.

Just to be clear, I play in a BCA league and not APA, and I wasn't at all criticizing you even though I jumped in to agree with someone who was. :wink: I think you ought to be paid well for your efforts.