That is exactly what our system does. 1st place team moves on to tri cups and is not in play offs
Are League Playoffs Fair?
- Thread starter FranCrimi
- Start date
That is exactly what our system does. 1st place team moves on to tri cups and is not in play offs
True - the Pirates won 97 games in 2015, had one playoff game and lost. Season over.
Fran's league is scratch play, but if it were handicapped the season could serve to get the handicaps right. But in Fran's case, it seems to make no sense.
The leagues I play in are drop-in, handicapped, individual leagues. The drop-in part means that you come when you can and you are matched up with whoever is there. They all have playoffs for the players who have shown up enough, which is fair because they are the ones who have put money into the system.
As for handicaps, if there were no handicaps, the leagues would probably not exist. There are simply not enough players to fill divisions. As for fairness, I have to spot everyone in the leagues except for one player and I think that's fair. If I don't play a good game for me, I won't win. If I'm spotting someone 100-30 (straight pool) and I miss a couple of break shots or they have an exceptional rack or two, I lose, as I should.
Years ago I played in a handicapped eight ball league where the hall owner paid more in performance incentives to get rid of sandbagging. For example I won twice as much money for break and runs and eights on the break than my share of our second place team winnings. He also paid the top three individual averages very well. For a straight pool league I'd pay for high runs of the week, total balls pocketed for the season (you miss a week it hurts), most wins for the season and highest average ball run.
If you're going to bash APA (seems to be one of your favorite things to do, now that they have a franchise in Santa Barbara county), you probably should get your facts straight. Nearly every APA league DOES pay out locally, and it's not peanuts either.
The APA
If not for the APA bringing both pool and food and beverage dollars into pool rooms probably half or more of the pool rooms in the country would close down. Love em or hate em the APA keeps pool rooms open.
Wedge
If not for the APA bringing both pool and food and beverage dollars into pool rooms probably half or more of the pool rooms in the country would close down. Love em or hate em the APA keeps pool rooms open.
Wedge
I have said that myself many times on here but you could include all leagues in general also.
We had a too. Here that only had 2 travel money league teams playing out of it...one was my team. . We only played at home once every 4 weeks. The other team did the same on the following night. He relied mostly on serious players and the casual player that may bring a friend with him on a Fri or sat night.
Needless to say he did not stay in business. When he closed I asked another room owner that hosted my in house apa league if I could move my money league team there. He not only said yes but he paid my teams yearly cues and gave us a roll of quarters every night and gave us free table time for 2 hours before our matches started and opened the table back up for free pls until closing time after matches were over.
Now that is some one who realizes that league players spend money and yes his business is thriving. He added 2 diamond 9's ..a diamond 7' and 2 valleys to an already crowded room.
He has leagues playing almost every night..apa and in house money leagues. Did have Napa also before I folded due to lack of participation
How many players? What were the weekly fees? How much did the room take?
The structure was obviously to keep people showing-up as they moved toward mathematical elimination.
What's more appealing: a bunch of smaller prizes or one big prize?
;
And their numbers, as they say.......... are............ Legion........ :thumbup:
nice Fran....by and by my two posts prior weren't a jab....merely was trying to figure if they pulled the bait and switch or what not.....
i especially like what you mention here....in red....i would like to add to this
I would also like to reward players for participating year in and year out rather than a system built out of fear that players teams will have to split up due to ratings.....unless they choose like many do in that situation....sandbagging. Tho i hate that, its sort of understandable to a degree.
I dont play league so i have no dog in the hunt.....one thing that disturbs me is the fact its basically built like an MLM....and enforced by the speed ratings, which can lead to team breakups to make more teams (where the MLM style is) or players sandbagging and hiding their true level so they can stay on same team.....its lame as lame can be but like i told fran i get that.....without condoning i def understand.
This i think i know but since i dont play league, and you run one.....you should be able to answer this no problem so i'm not just guessing.
You said nearly every APA league pays out locally....and its not peanuts.......aren't payouts for said league completely up to the L.O.?
Or does the APA have some required % of monies that MUST go back?
regards,
-Greyghost
First and foremost, the handicap system was never designed to create growth. The LEAGUE, however, is designed to appeal to beginner and novice players, by making them an important part of every team. That's how you get people interested and keep them interested. That APA leagues have been wildly more successful at increasing participation in the sport than any other league format in existence is a testament to the soundness of that principle. You do not grow the sport by attracting those who are already participating. I could throw out numbers that would dwarf $30,000 a year - heck, I pay more than that every session. But I've found that advertising the local $$$ actually serves as a deterrent to newcomers who believe they are not good enough to play in a league, which is one of the biggest stigmas you have to overcome if you want to attract beginners and grow.
It's not just the 23 rule, either. We are constantly reviewing and adjusting our rules and league policies, and for every change we consider, we ask ourselves how the change would affect the beginner and novice players. We've recently made some changes to the handicap system geared toward preventing the beginners from going up in skill level sooner than they probably should. If all we wanted to do is split up teams, we wouldn't make changes like this. We're all about being fair to everyone, especially the lower level players.
There is no requirement on an APA franchisee to pay anything locally, but almost all of us do. While we stress the fun and community aspects of league play, we understand that without the intermediate and advanced players there would also be no league. Believe me, a beginner has no interest in what they can win. Payouts are there to keep people interested when they are no longer beginners. So we try to appeal to beginners and make them part of the community of our league, a community we hope they will find it hard to leave once they've been in for a while. There's no magic to it, all you do is make it fun, fair, and affordable. If you do that, it will grow over time.
My beef with the APA has absolutely NOTHING to do with an APA league operating nearby. The fact is that the closest APA league to Santa Barbara is over 35 miles away. One league operator recently TRIED to get some teams going here in Santa Barbara, but local players are so happy with our league that they would never try APA here. BTW we have several players in our league that live a good distance away, and a lot of them also play in an APA league that's nearby their house (because there isn't any other type of league close by). EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM say that APA sucks. They say the rules suck. They say the payouts suck. They say the handicap system sucks. They say the ridiculous score keeping sucks. So it's not just me saying it. And it's not completely centered around this particular APA league operator.
Maybe for a huge league, but what about for a league with just 24 teams? I bet you couldn't come close to $30K cash payout. Here's a question for you. Add up all the weekly league fees paid by all the teams you have in all of your leagues for one year. Then add up all the CASH that you paid out (not trophies) to players and teams in those leagues (do not include any tournaments that allowed other leagues than yours, eg. Nationals). Divide CASH PAYOUT by TOTAL FEES. What percentage did you get? Was it over 75%?
BTW, I know the answer already. And I also know that you won't tell me what your percentage is.
Not in Southern/Central California they don't. The truth is that almost all league operators DON'T. Maybe you do. That gets a rose pinned on your nose.
What horsehockey. APA league operators don't advertise payouts for one reason; their players could then figure out how much money is being sucked up by the operators and the national organization.
A beer drinker is a beer drinker, whether it be APA, VNEA, BCAPL, TAP, etc. Nothing special about APA.
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Our LO pays out here. Every session, four places. He has between 12-15 divisions across the state.
I don't care how much money he makes. I hope its a bunch, having to deal with some of the stuff that he has to. I get a good value for my $10 a week. It doesn't matter one bit how much money the APA makes.
FAR too many people worry FAR too much what other people make. Bottom line, do you get a fair value for what you spent? If you do, then that should be enough. I get a fair value for the money spent, and a have a great experience.
Teams or individuals? How much? How many teams in one individual league?
That's great that you feel that you have gotten a good value and a great experience. Have you ever played in a well run BCAPL league?
Leagues
So, I run (or help run) a variety of non-national leagues...
1. local partners 8-ball league 5 matches /night, each match consists of best 2 out of 3 games... this is a non-money paying league. Standings are kept by matches won. Playoff position is by record, top 4 teams make playoffs, 1 vs 4, 2 vs 3, division winner plays division winner for championship... Every team plays every other team 2 times (balanced schedule) $2/night you play
Used to be a very popular league, but APA/TAP individual play is taking some players
2. Prize league, in-house Pool hall league, schedule is not balanced... slightly handicapped A/B/C... A's have to be really good, C's really beginners... most people are B's... $8/night ($6 green fee, $2 prize pool) and $20 buy in. We do a grand prize ($300-$400 value normally) and have prizes for about 1/2 the league in gift certificates $25-$75 value (each player can only win one of these).
Singles play, raffle tickets 1 for showing up, 1 for being there by 7:15 (league starts at 7:30 so I can do matches) and 1 for winning your match.
We do a session ending tournament with $75 -$100 in payouts (1st and 2nd usually)
3. A true money league at a private club. all money taken in though signups is distributed. NON- handicapped. Last session we had 18 people (2 - 9 person divisions). You played everyone within your division once (13 games of 9-ball). Then a playoff was held matching across division (seeded by your record). You were paid $0.50/game won for the regular season... and then there was a playoff payment structure that was distributed prior to start of the league...
It was $60 to buy-in and the winner of the league brought home $150 from Tourney and about $35 from regular season... so about $180 for his $60 buy in. It has a ton of the better shooters in the area, but it's not designed as a league for beginners...
None of these leagues have vegas/national trips in mind...
I really think it depends what you are trying to do, you have to match your rules/by-laws to your intended/expected audience...
There are a ton of ways to get it done, give it some thought and put some energy in it, growing the game is to all of our advantages.
So, I run (or help run) a variety of non-national leagues...
1. local partners 8-ball league 5 matches /night, each match consists of best 2 out of 3 games... this is a non-money paying league. Standings are kept by matches won. Playoff position is by record, top 4 teams make playoffs, 1 vs 4, 2 vs 3, division winner plays division winner for championship... Every team plays every other team 2 times (balanced schedule) $2/night you play
Used to be a very popular league, but APA/TAP individual play is taking some players
2. Prize league, in-house Pool hall league, schedule is not balanced... slightly handicapped A/B/C... A's have to be really good, C's really beginners... most people are B's... $8/night ($6 green fee, $2 prize pool) and $20 buy in. We do a grand prize ($300-$400 value normally) and have prizes for about 1/2 the league in gift certificates $25-$75 value (each player can only win one of these).
Singles play, raffle tickets 1 for showing up, 1 for being there by 7:15 (league starts at 7:30 so I can do matches) and 1 for winning your match.
We do a session ending tournament with $75 -$100 in payouts (1st and 2nd usually)
3. A true money league at a private club. all money taken in though signups is distributed. NON- handicapped. Last session we had 18 people (2 - 9 person divisions). You played everyone within your division once (13 games of 9-ball). Then a playoff was held matching across division (seeded by your record). You were paid $0.50/game won for the regular season... and then there was a playoff payment structure that was distributed prior to start of the league...
It was $60 to buy-in and the winner of the league brought home $150 from Tourney and about $35 from regular season... so about $180 for his $60 buy in. It has a ton of the better shooters in the area, but it's not designed as a league for beginners...
None of these leagues have vegas/national trips in mind...
I really think it depends what you are trying to do, you have to match your rules/by-laws to your intended/expected audience...
There are a ton of ways to get it done, give it some thought and put some energy in it, growing the game is to all of our advantages.
The amount that gets paid out depends on the number of teams in the division on that particular session. The last time my team was in the playoffs, there were 13 or 14 teams that session, and the winning team split around $1200, second place split just over $600, third and fourth places had appropriately lower amounts. Not hug money, but not bad either.
I've never played any other league beyond APA. Until recently, it was all we had for leagues here, other than an in-house league that was on a day that I couldn't play. Recently a friend of mine has started up TAP here, its not taking off big time as the APA division is well-entrenched. I'm not giving up on my teams that I've worked with for so long, and I expect that is the case with many others as well. I can only play two nights a week, so adding his league (and not dropping one of my APA teams) just won't work, as much as I'd like to support him.
We have a great group here. Our APA divisions here are successful, and fun. I have no issues with it, whatsoever.
That sounds like a reasonable team payout. How about payouts to individuals? Did 1st/2nd/3rd/etc in your 14-team group get anything more than a trophy? So I'm guessing with 14 teams you had a 13 week season? How much is your weekly league fee? Just trying to get an idea of your league's pay structure...thanks.
The Top Shooter for the session get s $50 and a trophy. The players on the the four playoff teams split their winnings. 1st, 2nd and 3rd teams get a trophy, and all the players on the winning team get individual trophies.
Most sessions are either 14 or 15 weeks. Our teams pay $45 each week, we usually have each player who played that week pay $9 each, the ones who didn't play a match don't pay anything that week. But we all get to use the practice tables, so we all have a night of pool. Like I said, a good value.