Shots Don't Look Right?

[ENGLISH!]

Nice OP at trying to help, Kudos to Pidge for that, as always.

There is a thread now over in the instructor's forum very similar to this thread & the mirror tape thing sounds very similar to what BeiberLever put out there & before.

My problem is that the OP states what is wrong & what would be right & then states to practice using the mirror & tape.
I think we need or should differentiate between practice & training, but that is perhaps best left for another time & thread.

I asked, in that other thread about HOW to use the information of knowing where one's 'vision center' is to no avail as of yet.
Here, Pidge seems to be saying to use the eye that is closet to one's vision center to find & see the line. That seems to make natural common sense.

I'd like to proffer the following:

The eye closet to one's 'vision center' would be what has nearly always been called one's dominant eye. If one closes the other, non dominant eye then that is the eye that one would see with & would see a straight line with too.
Do the same with the other eye & the same would be true for that eye too.
If when both eyes are opened & we see equally with both eyes then there is no dominant eye & our vision would be "centered".
How many of us are like that? Very few if truly any.
It might be nice if right handed players saw with only the right eye & left handed players saw with only the left eye, but mono-vision lacks depth perception so that would not be a totally good thing either.

So... if one is using just their dominant eye & then opens the other (non dominant eye) The "location" from which one would see a straight line as straight just shifted over toward the non dominant eye. A problem, unless one can consistently put the cue stick directly under that precise location.
That is the issues & the problem is how to solve that issue..

It's been said that the eyes lead & the body (& cue stick) follows. Well how else can it be?

I am of the opinion that one can "train" with a mirror & tape keeping that vision "location" covered by the tape might help but not much if one strays away from it when going back to playing with out the mirror & tape in the heat of battle. I think it might take 21 days straight of the mirror & tape for maybe two or more hours a day every day for it to have any lasting effect & perhaps "training" with it every time between actually playing to maintain it.
The reason is because the eyes lead & the body follows & not the other way around. We do not position our bodies & all of sudden our vision "location" is in the precise right spot. Our eyes are in our head & our head turns & can even shift laterally without turning. I have & have seen too many times that many can NOT take what they do at the training golf range to the golf course when actually playing the game. Training is not the same as practicing.(another time & place)

'The Trick' that Gene Albrecht gave me (I was or have become cross eye dominant) is to maintain eye contact with the OB & Ghost Ball location ALL the way until the cue is set without ever letting the eyes look down to the CB. That is rather different than what Mr. Jewett suggested.
I personally think that 'Gene's Trick' would be a quick & easy fix for many & with out having to get a long mirror & tape set up & spending much time & effort for what might be minimal payback & it can be put into play immediately.
I know that it worked for me immediately & still does whenever I do it correctly.

Some may want to try it before going to what Pidge & Mr. Jewett has said here & if it does not work to anyone's satisfaction then there is what Pidge suggests. One can rather easily compare Gene & Me. Jewett's suggestion & see if one or other works better for a particular individual.

Anyway, Kudos to Pidge Bob, etc. for the helpful ideas.

All Best Wishes for ALL. Play Well... & Play Better.

PS I think that the word "center" should be removed from the contrived phrase of "vision center" as there is nothing "center" about it for most of us. It perhaps should be replaced by "location' as in "vision location".

 

[michael4]

I would add that walking around the table before shooting helps keep the eyes and body aligned with the 3 dimensional aspect of the table, and not the 2 dimensional aspect of what we see when getting down on the shot....

 

[ENGLISH!]

Pidge is right on point with this thread. I think this phenomenon is hard to overcome when just playing, and a reason why my game deteriorates between long periods of not doing basic fundamental training.

If you isolate getting down onto the shot in a drill on it's own, you can get better at it.

I like the one where you set up an object ball on one spot, and the cue ball on the other. Straight shot looking to send the object ball into the rail and back to the cue ball. Doing this several times allows you to put your feet in the same position, lining up for the same shot, and getting down on the shot the same way each time. The end result is good feedback on how you are sighting the shot line and getting down.

I think a talk with Gene Albrecht might do a you 'world' of good.

Best Wishes for You & Yours.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Which is all the more reason to look at the CB last on shots.

r/DCP

Hi Mike,

In all seriousness, I think this may be your issue with those long straight in shots but perhaps not if you do not have an issue hitting them softer...

but... the firm hit takes swerve out that could be 'self correcting' for the softer shots.

Just a thought.

Maybe you try looking that OB for the whole process including any pre shot strokes & then right before the real shot stroke look at the CB.

Just a thought.

Best 2 Ya.

 

[Pidge]

Nice OP at trying to help, Kudos to Pidge for that, as always.

There is a thread now over in the instructor's forum very similar to this thread & the mirror tape thing sounds very similar to what BeiberLever put out there & before.

My problem is that the OP states what is wrong & what would be right & then states to practice using the mirror & tape.
I think we need or should differentiate between practice & training, but that is perhaps best left for another time & thread.

I asked, in that other thread about HOW to use the information of knowing where one's 'vision center' is to no avail as of yet.
Here, Pidge seems to be saying to use the eye that is closet to one's vision center to find & see the line. That seems to make natural common sense.

I'd like to proffer the following:

The eye closet to one's 'vision center' would be what has nearly always been called one's dominant eye. If one closes the other, non dominant eye then that is the eye that one would see with & would see a straight line with too.
Do the same with the other eye & the same would be true for that eye too.
If when both eyes are opened & we see equally with both eyes then there is no dominant eye & our vision would be "centered".
How many of us are like that? Very few if truly any.
It might be nice if right handed players saw with only the right eye & left handed players saw with only the left eye, but mono-vision lacks depth perception so that would not be a totally good thing either.

So... if one is using just their dominant eye & then opens the other (non dominant eye) The "location" from which one would see a straight line as straight just shifted over toward the non dominant eye. A problem, unless one can consistently put the cue stick directly under that precise location.
That is the issues & the problem is how to solve that issue..

It's been said that the eyes lead & the body (& cue stick) follows. Well how else can it be?

I am of the opinion that one can "train" with a mirror & tape keeping that vision "location" covered by the tape might help but not much if one strays away from it when going back to playing with out the mirror & tape in the heat of battle. I think it might take 21 days straight of the mirror & tape for maybe two or more hours a day every day for it to have any lasting effect & perhaps "training" with it every time between actually playing to maintain it.
The reason is because the eyes lead & the body follows & not the other way around. We do not position our bodies & all of sudden our vision "location" is in the precise right spot. Our eyes are in our head & our head turns & can even shift laterally without turning. I have & have seen too many times that many can NOT take what they do at the training golf range to the golf course when actually playing the game. Training is not the same as practicing.(another time & place)

'The Trick' that Gene Albrecht gave me (I was or have become cross eye dominant) is to maintain eye contact with the OB & Ghost Ball location ALL the way until the cue is set without ever letting the eyes look down to the CB. That is rather different than what Mr. Jewett suggested.
I personally think that 'Gene's Trick' would be a quick & easy fix for many & with out having to get a long mirror & tape set up & spending much time & effort for what might be minimal payback & it can be put into play immediately.
I know that it worked for me immediately & still does whenever I do it correctly.

Some may want to try it before going to what Pidge & Mr. Jewett has said here & if it does not work to anyone's satisfaction then there is what Pidge suggests. One can rather easily compare Gene & Me. Jewett's suggestion & see if one or other works better for a particular individual.

Anyway, Kudos to Pidge Bob, etc. for the helpful ideas.

All Best Wishes for ALL. Play Well... & Play Better.

PS I think that the word "center" should be removed from the contrived phrase of "vision center" as there is nothing "center" about it for most of us. It perhaps should be replaced by "location' as in "vision location".

Focusing on the object ball and ghost ball position until the bridge is set is something they have been advocating in snooker for tens of years, if not longer. The problem with it is that people tend to place the bridge wrong and end up aimed a fraction off centre cue ball... Or some instances way off. Then they have to either adjust when down or get back up and try again. I'm not suggesting it's bad advice, but it does take practise to learn a repeatable method for getting down on the shot with an accurate bridge placement.

That is exactly what the mirror and tape method is. It's a way to practise a repeatable way to get down on the shot so you can accurately place the bridge, but one major advantage is you can look where ever you want because your vision centre stays on the correct line of aim throughout... So once you focus back on the object ball and cue ball you pick up centre cue ball and the line of aim instantly.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Focusing on the object ball and ghost ball position until the bridge is set is something they have been advocating in snooker for tens of years, if not longer. The problem with it is that people tend to place the bridge wrong and end up aimed a fraction off centre cue ball... Or some instances way off. Then they have to either adjust when down or get back up and try again. I'm not suggesting it's bad advice, but it does take practise to learn a repeatable method for getting down on the shot with an accurate bridge placement.

That is exactly what the mirror and tape method is. It's a way to practise a repeatable way to get down on the shot so you can accurately place the bridge, but one major advantage is you can look where ever you want because your vision centre stays on the correct line of aim throughout... So once you focus back on the object ball and cue ball you pick up centre cue ball and the line of aim instantly.

What you're talking about is exactly another component of what Gene knows & talks about.

I guess you missed the part where I quoted what is so often said, 'The eyes lead & the body(& the cue stick) follows.'.

If one has the mirror & tape as a check then yes it can be done & "seen" when it has not been done correctly. Without the mirror in real life there will be nothing for which to use as a "check" for confirmation.

All I was suggesting is that one might want to try what I suggested before going to the trouble of Beiber's & Your mirror "training" aid.

The manual method that Gene relayed to me worked immediately with no need for any "training" aid, training, practice , or investment in time.

Each individual is at will to try & do as they will.

Best Wishes for You & Yours... & ALL.

PS When I am looking at the OB/Ghost Ball line, I am not even looking at the CB at all, not the center, top, edge, or whatever Until I am down with the hand & cue set. Then I look at the CB for depth or english, TOI, draw, etc. The thing is that I have THE LINE.

 

[BeiberLvr]

A technique I've just discovered that helps with this ....

You are in position with your head (vision) along the line joining the cue ball to the ghost ball but haven't gotten down yet. You position your feet and start to come down. As you do that, you concentrate on bringing the cue ball straight up along the line to the ghost ball. (It won't get all the way up to actually cover the ghost ball unless your head gets really, really low.) As long as you make the cue ball move vertically towards the ghost ball you know your vision center has stayed in the right place while getting down on the shot.

But Bob, everyone knows you can't actually bring the cue ball up. That would be a foul.

 

[Wheels33]

A technique I've just discovered that helps with this ....

You are in position with your head (vision) along the line joining the cue ball to the ghost ball but haven't gotten down yet. You position your feet and start to come down. As you do that, you concentrate on bringing the cue ball straight up along the line to the ghost ball. (It won't get all the way up to actually cover the ghost ball unless your head gets really, really low.) As long as you make the cue ball move vertically towards the ghost ball you know your vision center has stayed in the right place while getting down on the shot.

I do a similar thing. When I'm standing with my vision center on the shot line, I make a note of the ball fraction relationship between the CB and OB (3/4 ball, 1/2 ball etc...). Then on my way down, I focus on keeping that relationship the whole way down into the shot.

No matter how you slice it, it's all about keeping your dominant eye in the dominant position throughout the shot making process.

It's part of what Gene Albrecht taught me....and it's really improved my shot making.

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

Do you look at the hammer last, when driving a nail? I don't think so.
Jeanette Lee advises you to focus on the object ball last. Do you know something she doesn't?

My gosh guy, where have you been the last decade?

Hammers and nails? You can draw all kind of analogies like this. Both for and against CB or OB last. What does a golfer look at last when putting? The hole or the golf ball/putter head?

Jeanette Lee has her opinion. And other top pros have their opinions. And a good percentage of those opinions say CB last. Neither is right, neither is wrong.

Best to ya,

r/DCP

 

[ENGLISH!]

I do a similar thing. When I'm standing with my vision center on the shot line, I make a note of the ball fraction relationship between the CB and OB (3/4 ball, 1/2 ball etc...). Then on my way down, I focus on keeping that relationship the whole way down into the shot.

No matter how you slice it, it's all about keeping your dominant eye in the dominant position throughout the shot making process.

It's part of what Gene Albrecht taught me....and it's really improved my shot making.

--------------:thumbup2:------------------

 

[Tramp Steamer]

My gosh guy, where have you been the last decade?

Hammers and nails? You can draw all kind of analogies like this. Both for and against CB or OB last. What does a golfer look at last when putting? The hole or the golf ball/putter head?

Jeanette Lee has her opinion. And other top pros have their opinions. And a good percentage of those opinions say CB last. Neither is right, neither is wrong.

Best to ya,

r/DCP

Mostly playing One Pocket and looking at the OB last.
Just like the golfer who looks at the ball, the pool player who looks at the OB will have the advantage in the long run.
Best to you, too.

 

[bdorman]

Many thanks for starting this thread Pidge; definitely something I need to work on.

The other aspect where I need work (i.e. discipline) is to get up and start over when the shot "looks" wrong. Nine times out of ten I end up shooting it anyway...and usually regretting it.

Your logic gives me a good reason to get up and start over: the reason it looks wrong is because I didn't keep my vision alignment while getting down on the shot. Having some idea of WHY the shot looks wrong gives me the motivation to try again to get it right.

Or, it could just be that I'm lazy. Time will tell. :thumbup:

 

[One Pocket John]

Nick makes alot of sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtXQBkO2jgA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggh61wQZTRQ

The tape on a 5' mirror w/ two strips of tape will tell the tale in your line up procedure from the standing position down to the shooting position on the shot line. The eye/eyes lead and the body follows.

You may be a little surprised at what you see.

John

 

[ENGLISH!]

Many thanks for starting this thread Pidge; definitely something I need to work on.

The other aspect where I need work (i.e. discipline) is to get up and start over when the shot "looks" wrong. Nine times out of ten I end up shooting it anyway...and usually regretting it.

Your logic gives me a good reason to get up and start over: the reason it looks wrong is because I didn't keep my vision alignment while getting down on the shot. Having some idea of WHY the shot looks wrong gives me the motivation to try again to get it right.

Or, it could just be that I'm lazy. Time will tell. :thumbup:

What you say here is a good opportunity to talk about this.

I took 7 weeks off for health & family matters. I came back two Mondays ago & spent 7 hours in the hall. Needless to say I was not sharp.

I start out each session shooting 'straight' shots down the rail & the truly "straight" shots of the corner to corner type.

If I do what I have learned from Gene those straight shots look straight. IF I get loose & careless & just go down my normal old way, those straight shots appear to be 1 to 2 degree cuts to the left.

IF I shoot them as they appear they go into the center of the pocket.

IF I make an adjustment while down so that they look straight they miss to the right.

IF I do what I learned from Gene but lower my head too quickly & get too low too fast, somehow my non dominant eye takes over & yields that 1-2* left cut look.

What that means is I will see a 1-2* cut as straight if I go down my old way.

So... I come back Friday for 6 hours & I know if I do what I learned from Gene I will be on the line.

I played very well & beat a guy 10 yrs. my senior 3 of 5 games of one pocket. He has been playing forever & I've been playing for several months. It should have been 4 of 5 but I scratched a few times for that one game.

The subconscious mind can & does make 'corrections'. It's the confusion between the conscious & subconscious mind that is an issue when there is a sighting issue.

Anyway, just some food for though & consideration.

ALL Best Wishes for You & Yours... & ALL.

 

[chefjeff]

(snip)

If you want to say it is plain and simple... Just hit the white where you mean at the correct spot on the other jet ball and you will make the pot... Then that's fine.... But who the f*ck is that helping? No one.

It helps those who ruin good threads like this one. I don't know how it helps them, but it must, based on how often they make a mess of things.

imho,


Jeff Livingston

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Either they don't look right or worse case scenario they do look right... But we still miss. Pool is a ***** at times.

I have some words and thoughts to share with you on why I think this happens. I want to state now that some times we will miss... OK, OK... A lot of times we will miss because we simply hit it bad. It happens. Brain tells hand to move in this direction, but hand thinks nahhh, and moves in the opposite direction and we screw the pot up. This isn't for those situations. I've got plenty of posts on how to make your hand and brain see eye to eye.

This thread is purely for approaching the shot. Getting your personal vision centre (of which me and many others have threads on btw) approaching the shot correctly and consistently.

When ever I approach a shot and get down and it doesn't look right it is because of two reasons. Either I selected a line of aim with my vision centre way off this line of aim, or most commonly I selected the correct line of aim but in the process of getting down my vision centre left this line of aim.

So for the first scenario of the above paragraph...

Once you know your vision centre you can manipulate this to your advantage for not just hitting the cue ball accurately, but for aiming very precisely also. If your vision centre is under your right eye, then when you are stood up aiming the shot you should be selecting a line of aim with the right eye directly behind the centre of the cue ball. Regardless of where your vision centre is to your eyes, you should have this behind the centre of the cue ball when you plan on hitting without side spin. This takes practise to get used to, especially when you've been doing it different for a long time. Lots of people learn to aim 'wrong' but as they get down they re-laid without knowing it.... Ronnie O'Sullivan is a prime example. He aims with the right eye, cuts across the line of aim when getting down and places the cue under the left eye. Very rarely will you see someone get anywhere near his level doing this.

The second scenario... You don't keep the vision centre on the line of aim when getting down...

This is what sets the professionals from the amateurs apart. Pros do it so well. American pool players actually do it better than snooker players. The side on stance makes this easier to achieve... Especially for cross dominant players. With a square stance and a cross dominant player as you place the front leg your vision automatically moves over to the side of the bent leg... Bad, very bad!

A little practise technique is to get a tall mirror and place it behind the table and stick some electrical tape vertically up the mirror. Then place an object ball on the table so the tape in the mirror directs it into 2 equal parts. Do the same with a cue ball. Then stand behind the shot aiming them straight (centre cue ball to centre object ball) then as you get down notice how your vision centre deviates either side of the tape In the mirror. The trick is to always have your vision centre covered by the tape from standing to getting down. Practise this and make adjustments to your stance as necessary to allow this to happen and I promise you will be seeing and hitting the balls a lot cleaner and consistently with a little practise.

Then take it to the table and set up angled shots whilst approaching and getting down in your new method. You should be hitting the pockets centrally (or which ever part of the pocket you intend) a lot more often. Minor stroke flaws and unintentional side will stand out more for you. You will know why you miss. No more did I aim wrong? The shot looked right but I still missed! Your misses will mostly come from bad contact with the white. Because you will be viewing the shot a lot more accurately you can narrow down why you missed and work on a fix.

Hopefully this makes sense to everyone. Sometimes I struggle with getting words from my head into text!

I agree, however, with good mechanics, you can be a bit off the optimal lines of sight and still score balls.

It helps players to be aware of their pre-shot routine and transitions. Let's say a player starts by lining up the cue ball straight into the object ball for a full hit, regardless of the eventual cut angle for the pocket.

Do they get on that line and throw the ball in? Do they shift to line the cue up on a different line in the air? As they come down? Do they pivot, put the bridge down on the full line or on a new line? Etc.

 

[Careyp74]

I have been doing this as a bet lately. Cue ball has to come back to the short rail before contacting a long rail. Great way of showing you whether you are able to aim, align correctly, and strike the cue ball exactly on the vertical access. Anything less and usually the object ball won't even hit the cue ball on the way back.

Funny story, when I first learned this practice routine, I couldn't do it right away. The first day I was off about half a ball usually, sometimes even more!

I would go on playing, and make a decent run or two, and think the drill is just too nit picky.

That night I went to the pool hall, and there are a couple sponsored players that take part in the local tournament. I ask them to do it, and wouldn't you know, they would get the object ball back to the cue ball perfectly the first time.

Now I see the importance of being able to do it myself.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Nick makes alot of sense.

...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggh61wQZTRQ

You may be a little surprised at what you see.

...

John

I like it.

That is what it should be about.

Moving the cue stick straight back & delivering the cue stick straight forward in a straight line with no rocking motion... as the cue stick HAS a Liner Line & NOT one with an arc.

Build EVERYTHING around that & do NOT set ANYTHING that inhibits that & that includes the elbow.

That is just plain old natural common sense.

All Best Wishes for You & Yours, John... & ALL.

PS Notice what Nic said about the precision of hit for height & then think about a tip that is arcing down, up, & down again.

 

[row21097]

A technique I've just discovered that helps with this ....

You are in position with your head (vision) along the line joining the cue ball to the ghost ball but haven't gotten down yet. You position your feet and start to come down. As you do that, you concentrate on bringing the cue ball straight up along the line to the ghost ball. (It won't get all the way up to actually cover the ghost ball unless your head gets really, really low.) As long as you make the cue ball move vertically towards the ghost ball you know your vision center has stayed in the right place while getting down on the shot.

Bob,
Do you use the stick or your back hand as an aid in the process you are describing?

Thanks
Bert

 

[Bob Jewett]

Bob,
Do you use the stick or your back hand as an aid in the process you are describing?

Thanks
Bert

Neither. I just make sure that the cue ball appears to be rising straight towards the ghost ball as I bend down into the shot.\

I have seen Corey Deuel hold his cue stick vertically in the cue-ball/ghost-ball plane as he came down. He doesn't do this any more although he is more methodical than most in dropping into position.