Are League Playoffs Fair?

Celophanewrap said:
So that 30 G's, is that over one year or 3 months, 6 months? or....?
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That's our six-month season. We also have a three-month season with roughly half the money of the six-monther.

Celophanewrap said:
and the $3600, is that all given to the top team in one lump at the conclusion of a tournament? or is that paid out over the course of a year or 6 months or 3 months, or...?
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All money in our league is paid out at our end-of-season banquet.

Celophanewrap said:
How many players do you have there in Santa Barbara and how many attend the banquet?
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Including subs we have about 220 players. Half of them come to the banquet.

Celophanewrap said:
How many players per team?
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Five.

Celophanewrap said:
I notice your fee to enter a tournament per individual looks to be between $60 and $120, is that correct?
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Where did you see that? No, all of out postseason tournaments, both team and individual, are completely free to league members.
We have a 48-person All-Star tourney (which happens to begin tonight) where 40 spots are guaranteed to the top shooters from the season, and the other 8 are given to the top finishers of two qualifying tournaments. Anyone in the league that has played enough of the season can try and qualify.

Celophanewrap said:
$30000 in fees really isn't much when you consider all the work that you have to do to run a league, do you have a job in addition to running The Santa Barbara Pool League?
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Yes I work full time as a software engineer. I make good money and don't need any pay from our league. I know that isn't the norm.

Celophanewrap said:
I figure that after to payouts, the banquet, any trophies, transportation and administrative costs your personal yearly take is probably less than you pay out to that top team, probably right around 10% or $3000, so, how do you do it?
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I love doing it and I take pride in seeing everyone have a great time. The website is the real gem of our league.

Celophanewrap said:
As I understand it, to play in a national tournament you don't have to qualify, you just have to enter and pay the fee, is that correct?
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That is correct. To play in any BCAPL singles tournament, all you have to do is be a BCAPL member. You pay $15/year to join if you play in a league and $25/year if not in a league. The team tournaments are limited to qualified league players only. You must have played at least 8 weeks in a sanctioned BCAPL league to qualify. But if you are qualified, anyone can play. All 5-person teams must be made up of players from your league, and at least two players must have played on the same league team. Most singles tourneys are $160. The three divisions of Scotch Doubles have $100/$150/$200 entry fees. Three-man 9-ball teams $225/$300. 5-man 8-ball teams $400/$500. A few years ago the BCAPL switched from $1 coin tables to all open tables at the Nationals. So built into every fee is a greens fee.

Go to the BCAPL National Championshis page for more info.
 
BRussell said:
Just to be clear, I play in a BCA league and not APA, and I wasn't at all criticizing you even though I jumped in to agree with someone who was. :wink: I think you ought to be paid well for your efforts.
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Just to be clear...i was.not criticizing his league or how he runs it. I w as criticizing the way he puts other leagues down...particularly apa.while bragging about his is the best thing since moms apple pie.

I do agree that he ...along with all lo's should be well compensated for what they do.its a thankless job and I would not want it.

But since he brought up his current pay outs and member costs I would like to compare it to my spas area costs and pay outs we received 3 years ago. I have no idea what current pay outs will be yet.


His top pay out 3,400.00 ...ours 4,000.00

His members paid..10.00. ... Ours 6.00

They got one free drink.. We got 1 1/2 hour cree table time before matches and cree table time until closing after matches.


I have no idea what my lo pays for patches...plaques.. Individual trophies or 4' team trophies at the end of the year so no way to compare .

Just from what I can compare it seems my lo.pays out more and collects less than SB.

Again ...not being critical of his league ...just comparing payouts vs what we pay in .
 
lorider said:
Well the same could be said about bars ball...foot ball ...basket ball.....well you vet the idea
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undefeated.jpg


Who won the Superbowl that year?
 
APA Operator said:
Like I said, I don't hide what I make in revenue. I make 50% of the $6 my players pay in. Anyone in my league can figure out my revenue. I built my league on providing value for the $6 they pay. Apparently you built yours by paying the best players most of the money. To each his own.
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Look I apologize to all the individual APA league operators out there who truly care about the people in their league and do everything they can to make sure their players have a fun time.

I have a full time job that pays well and I run my league as a hobby...I liken it to community service but I love doing it. But I understand there are operators who do this as a job, so you have to take out some money.

I get a little bent when I see a league that pays scraps and the operators take in six figures. We have such a league nearby. And I'm sure this isn't the only such league.
 
lorider said:
Just to be clear...i was.not criticizing his league or how he runs it. I w as criticizing the way he puts other leagues down...particularly apa.while bragging about his is the best thing since moms apple pie.

I do agree that he ...along with all lo's should be well compensated for what they do.its a thankless job and I would not want it.

But since he brought up his current pay outs and member costs I would like to compare it to my spas area costs and pay outs we received 3 years ago. I have no idea what current pay outs will be yet.


His top pay out 3,400.00 ...ours 4,000.00

His members paid..10.00. ... Ours 6.00

They got one free drink.. We got 1 1/2 hour cree table time before matches and cree table time until closing after matches.


I have no idea what my lo pays for patches...plaques.. Individual trophies or 4' team trophies at the end of the year so no way to compare .

Just from what I can compare it seems my lo.pays out more and collects less than SB.

Again ...not being critical of his league ...just comparing payouts vs what we pay in .
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I only listed my payouts because someone asked me to.

You can't compare top payouts between leagues and league fees and say one is better than another. Our league happens to pay back 70+% in cash and 75+% if you add trophies and banquet. No APA league in the country can come close.

But that's OK if you are an APA league member who is happy that payouts are few.
 
Celophanewrap said:
The APA 'a-Hole' is much easier to deal with than the money 'A-Hole', and usually far less skilled of a player.
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Levels of a-hole-ishness are not league dependent, and are generally driven by ignorance of league and game rules. I deal with a couple (thankfully very few) world-class types. But I also here many stories from our neighboring APA league.
 
sbpoolleague said:
Levels of a-hole-ishness are not league dependent, and are generally driven by ignorance of league and game rules. I deal with a couple (thankfully very few) world-class types. But I also here many stories from our neighboring APA league.
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I agree, it's the money
 
sbpoolleague said:
I kinda agree with you but my position is more that local pool leagues are a community asset. The people that run the leagues and the players in the leagues should all be prepared to sacrifice a little of their time and energy to making sure that the league is run properly and that everyone in the league is having a great time...from the top players down to the beginners. The people that do the most work can and should be compensated, but once you make it a business you tend to lose the community aspect of the league.
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I don't agree with this at all. A league isn't a community asset like a park - it doesn't belong to the community. The league IS the community. Maintaining that community isn't easy, and the fact that the league may be operated as a business only means that the members of that community can and should expect professional operation. That does include balancing the needs/desires of the community with the needs/desires of an individual, so sometimes individuals in that community are not going to be happy. But with the right approach, that community will grow. Without growth, the community will eventually stagnate. Is there a better way to promote growth in a community than to have someone who is personally invested in that growth?
 
sbpoolleague said:
Look I apologize to all the individual APA league operators out there who truly care about the people in their league and do everything they can to make sure their players have a fun time.

I have a full time job that pays well and I run my league as a hobby...I liken it to community service but I love doing it. But I understand there are operators who do this as a job, so you have to take out some money.

I get a little bent when I see a league that pays scraps and the operators take in six figures. We have such a league nearby. And I'm sure this isn't the only such league.
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Well, I certainly don't make six figures PROFIT. I'm pretty sure none of the APA leagues near Santa Barbara do either.
 
APA Operator said:
Well, I certainly don't make six figures PROFIT. I'm pretty sure none of the APA leagues near Santa Barbara do either.
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Our league operator easily makes 6 figures profit. I will say though he pays back to the players. If I were to take a stab at how much he bets it's easily over 200k per year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
sbpoolleague said:
With almost 300 teams I'm SURE the take is well into the six figures.
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Hopefully they all do well.

I'm not into hoping people aren't successful in the way they make their living. Do you worry how much your doctor, plumber or mechanic are making?
 
sbpoolleague said:
With almost 300 teams I'm SURE the take is well into the six figures.
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Sure or not, APA league operators and the IRS disagree. And if it's a full-time job for two people, what do you think should be the limit on the income? Not that you're in any position to set limits on income, but I'm curious what you think is fair.
 
APA Operator said:
How much do you make as a software engineer? How much of that do you pay back to your customers?
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Bad analogy. Our customers have many options when shopping around. If they don't like a quoted price they can go elsewhere.

The APA is often the only pool league in town. Players don't have a choice. If they did and they knew just how much of their fees went into the LO's pocket, they might opt for a different league.
 
sbpoolleague said:
Bad analogy. Our customers have many options when shopping around. If they don't like a quoted price they can go elsewhere.

The APA is often the only pool league in town. Players don't have a choice. If they did and they knew just how much of their fees went into the LO's pocket, they might opt for a different league.
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The thing you don't realize is most players really don't care how much the LO makes. They play in the league because they enjoy playing in the league. It is a cheap night of entertainment to compete against others and hang out with friends.

Any money coming back is just a bonus. If I want to make money, I go play a tournament or gamble. I play in 2 different leagues a total of 3 nights a week and don't view it as a money making opportunity. I play because it is enjoyable and it is nice to play as part of a team in a game where you are typically on your own.
 
nine_ball6970 said:
The thing you don't realize is most players really don't care how much the LO makes. They play in the league because they enjoy playing in the league. It is a cheap night of entertainment to compete against others and hang out with friends.

Any money coming back is just a bonus. If I want to make money, I go play a tournament or gamble. I play in 2 different leagues a total of 3 nights a week and don't view it as a money making opportunity. I play because it is enjoyable and it is nice to play as part of a team in a game where you are typically on your own.
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Wouldn't it be fun if there were several free tournaments during/after the season that anyone in the league could play? Maybe with cash payouts or other prizes. Wouldn't it be nice if there were an end-of-session BBQ after every session? I know you say that you don't play for money, but don't you think your league would like it if the top several players received cash at session's end?

I think the problem here is that you are like most APA regulars...you don't know how much BETTER the league could be.
 
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