Stance adjustments

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KissedOut

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So after a lifetime of being a self-mis-taught player I have embarked on a quest for solid fundamentals. I've had a lesson and looked at some of the videos on the net and I am starting to get a little comfort in my stance and my process of getting into my stance (is it just me, or is the process of getting onto the stance the key to having a good stance?). I think of this as kind of my model stance.

But that is just for the simplest case where there are no rails or balls in the way and I do not have to stretch. So my question is, when conditions make it impossible to get into my "model" stance, what are the things I should focus on when the stance is distorted by rails, balls, and stretching so I still end up in a position where I can make a good and accurate stroke? Is it just a matter of "getting comfortable" or are there specific factors I need to consider in order to preserve the benefits of the model stance. Or is the variety of positions one must get in too varied to allow for any general guidelines?

I would love any comments from any of the instructors here, as this doesn't seem to be discussed much. Or if it is and I just missed it I'd be happy to look up links to any threads here or videos on youtube that address this.

I don't play pool, I play 3-cushion billiards, if that matters, although I think in this case it doesn't.

Thanks
 
KissedOut said:
So after a lifetime of being a self-mis-taught player I have embarked on a quest for solid fundamentals. I've had a lesson and looked at some of the videos on the net and I am starting to get a little comfort in my stance and my process of getting into my stance (is it just me, or is the process of getting onto the stance the key to having a good stance?). I think of this as kind of my model stance.

But that is just for the simplest case where there are no rails or balls in the way and I do not have to stretch. So my question is, when conditions make it impossible to get into my "model" stance, what are the things I should focus on when the stance is distorted by rails, balls, and stretching so I still end up in a position where I can make a good and accurate stroke? Is it just a matter of "getting comfortable" or are there specific factors I need to consider in order to preserve the benefits of the model stance. Or is the variety of positions one must get in too varied to allow for any general guidelines?

I would love any comments from any of the instructors here, as this doesn't seem to be discussed much. Or if it is and I just missed it I'd be happy to look up links to any threads here or videos on youtube that address this.

I don't play pool, I play 3-cushion billiards, if that matters, although I think in this case it doesn't.

Thanks
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I don't remember --- Is a 3-cushion table taller than a pool table?

I've noticed that 3-cushion players tend to stand taller at the table. Their cue tapers are much sharper, and their bridge lengths are generally shorter than pool players. All of those things affect stance. But you are right to ask because it's more than just getting comfortable. 'Comfort' often means familiarity, and what is familiar isn't always what's right.

If you're a 3-C player, then you should research 3-C stances. I believe they're slightly different than pool.
 
Stance is really no different for 3-C than it is for pool. You need to be pretty equally balanced with a small amount of weight on the bridge hand so that you form a tripod. How high you stand over the cue is a personal preference. You'll see many players put their chin on the cue, while other stand much higher. Your stance needs to allow for clearance of your cuestick...meaning that you can't stand in a way where your body style impedes moving the cue backwards and forwards. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
KissedOut said:
... So my question is, when conditions make it impossible to get into my "model" stance, what are the things I should focus on when the stance is distorted by rails, balls, and stretching so I still end up in a position where I can make a good and accurate stroke? Is it just a matter of "getting comfortable" or are there specific factors I need to consider in order to preserve the benefits of the model stance....
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You want to keep as much of your usual stance as possible. Your grip forearm needs to be hanging straight down. Your head needs to be in its usual position over the cue stick. You have to have enough reach that you can get a more or less normal follow-through.

If you depart from that too much, you are putting accuracy and consistency in peril.

To check the reach, you could try a trick from snooker. When stretching, snooker players will take a crude, preliminary stroke a little to the side of the line of the shot. If they can't reach comfortably to the end of their follow through past the cue ball, they get out the rest.

3-cushion players rarely use the mechanical bridge in spite of the fact they are on a 10-foot table. Instead they make lots of compromises, such as shooting left handed, shooting blind (with the head nowhere near over the stick) and shooting cushion-first shots when the natural would be the right shot if they were good with the bridge or about three feet taller.

Maybe you could practice with the bridge. You could also practice left-handed, and should if you ever do take left-handed shots normally in a game.

Do you have a consistent approach as part of your pre-shot routine?
 
Bob Jewett said:
You want to keep as much of your usual stance as possible. Your grip forearm needs to be hanging straight down. Your head needs to be in its usual position over the cue stick. You have to have enough reach that you can get a more or less normal follow-through.

If you depart from that too much, you are putting accuracy and consistency in peril.

To check the reach, you could try a trick from snooker. When stretching, snooker players will take a crude, preliminary stroke a little to the side of the line of the shot. If they can't reach comfortably to the end of their follow through past the cue ball, they get out the rest.

3-cushion players rarely use the mechanical bridge in spite of the fact they are on a 10-foot table. Instead they make lots of compromises, such as shooting left handed, shooting blind (with the head nowhere near over the stick) and shooting cushion-first shots when the natural would be the right shot if they were good with the bridge or about three feet taller.

Maybe you could practice with the bridge. You could also practice left-handed, and should if you ever do take left-handed shots normally in a game.

Do you have a consistent approach as part of your pre-shot routine?
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This is probably a bunch of malarkey so teach me something. Its simply how I see head height in the stance. I've said similar stuff before here but don't remember if you guys (instructors) object. I'm getting forgetful too.

Of course I can't disagree with any of what Bob says nor with Scott but Fran's observation of a taller stances seen in 3C I also agree with. So what gives?

Observing the stance of top 3-C players most do have their head further away from the cue than do most top pool players. Yes there's exceptions. Pedro gets pretty low for example and he's a tall guy as well, so its not about being short or tall.

Although my stance is much lower these days compared to what I was taught by an old Champion. do know that standing taller allows for a better view of the angle. This is one of the reasons we make our decisions while standing up and not when down, no matter which game. IMO with 3C if the carom is far away and extremely important for success, address the shot standing higher above the cue than normal. If perfect CB spin is a must then get lower to see that better. These 2 extremes are just that. Extreme and exceptions.

The point is there's trade offs to some degree. Standing tall allows you to see angles. Getting low allows you to see the CB/Tip relationship better. Both of the inferred negatives to high or low head height are overcome with practice.

BTW, I know of a US top player who violates the cardinal rule of staying down on the shot. He rises on his final pull back. Try perfecting that one. Very good player.
Top 15 or higher.

If you look at Snooker players they're generally all the way down with their chin on the cue. They're target is smaller than Pool players. Pool player are generally standing taller than Snooker Players - they're target is a little larger. 3C players aren't as concerned with the OB (of course top players can and do control the OB) and they can and do stand taller, the carom/angle is more important than where the OB is going. Again generally speaking.

What does this all boil down to. Well, find a place, like has been said a million times on this site that's comfortable, and groove that place to your game. But IMO, know that there's 1 in 100 or 500, 1000 shots, where it might be helpful to break the mold.
 
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Carom players do tend to have their heads farther up than pool or snooker players. The usual reason given is that you see the angles better.

Carom tables are certainly lower than snooker tables. I'm not sure relative to pool tables. I think for snooker it is both easier and required to have the chin on the cue for stroke and sighting accuracy/consistency.

But as far as the OP's question goes, I think he wants to match his usual head height as closely as possible when in an unusual body position.
 
Bob Jewett said:
But as far as the OP's question goes, I think he wants to match his usual head height as closely as possible when in an unusual body position.
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And like you already said, becoming comfortable shooting opposite handed can solve many of these positions.

When watching top players many times you'll see a them pass up an easier pattern if they can't have sound body position. Us amateurs tend to fight it and of course typically lose out, blaming it to the required contortions, rather than, maybe weak discipline.

Its an overlooked aspect of good shot selection. What are the odds of success. Is this shot is a waste of time, all stretched out with bridge hand 6" from the grip?
 
Bob Jewett said:
You want to keep as much of your usual stance as possible. Your grip forearm needs to be hanging straight down. Your head needs to be in its usual position over the cue stick. You have to have enough reach that you can get a more or less normal follow-through.

If you depart from that too much, you are putting accuracy and consistency in peril.

To check the reach, you could try a trick from snooker. When stretching, snooker players will take a crude, preliminary stroke a little to the side of the line of the shot. If they can't reach comfortably to the end of their follow through past the cue ball, they get out the rest.

3-cushion players rarely use the mechanical bridge in spite of the fact they are on a 10-foot table. Instead they make lots of compromises, such as shooting left handed, shooting blind (with the head nowhere near over the stick) and shooting cushion-first shots when the natural would be the right shot if they were good with the bridge or about three feet taller.

Maybe you could practice with the bridge. You could also practice left-handed, and should if you ever do take left-handed shots normally in a game.

Do you have a consistent approach as part of your pre-shot routine?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the answer Bob, that is very helpful. I do shoot shot left-handed when called for - not as well as I should but it is a work in progress. I think sometimes I get stubborn and try to shoot the "best" shot from a lousy physical position rather than a little tougher shot from a solid stance. I should probably get more proactive about looking for alternative shots when the compromises to the stance are too severe.

Most of the one lesson I've had, from Dave Gross, was about developing a pre-shot routine that gets me into a good solid aligned stance. I think I am doing pretty well with that part of it, although again, it is a work in progress. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by approach, but this is what I do: Once I have surveyed the shot and determined what I am going to do, which I do from several feet away from the table, I move to the table. Initially I want to move to the "right" distance from the cue ball so my arm will hang down straight at address. Then I use my feet (especially the toe-line of my right foot) to get my body aligned to my aiming line. Then I try to put my bridge hand down in exactly the right position because I do not want to fiddle with it if I can avoid it. That is my PSR in a nutshell. Unfortunately, as soon as the shot calls for a stretched stance I get a little at sea since I cannot follow the PSR.
 
3kushn said:
And like you already said, becoming comfortable shooting opposite handed can solve many of these positions.

When watching top players many times you'll see a them pass up an easier pattern if they can't have sound body position. Us amateurs tend to fight it and of course typically lose out, blaming it to the required contortions, rather than, maybe weak discipline.

Its an overlooked aspect of good shot selection. What are the odds of success. Is this shot is a waste of time, all stretched out with bridge hand 6" from the grip?
Click to expand...

Ouch, it sounds like you have been watching me play. That is exactly one of the (bad) things I do. Even when I "feel" comfortable I think that the cue is frequently nowhere near where I think it is, aiming wise, based on the results. For me I think the feeling comfortable thing has more to do with being able to make a decent stoke, whereas I need to focus more on whether I can maintain a good aim line with the stretched stance. And if not, don't be stubborn - shoot something else.

Thanks for your response.
 
3kushn said:
Although my stance is much lower these days compared to what I was taught by an old Champion. do know that standing taller allows for a better view of the angle. This is one of the reasons we make our decisions while standing up and not when down, no matter which game. IMO with 3C if the carom is far away and extremely important for success, address the shot standing higher above the cue than normal. If perfect CB spin is a must then get lower to see that better. These 2 extremes are just that. Extreme and exceptions.
Click to expand...

That is an interesting point and I've never really thought about it this way with regard to head height being influenced by whether the shot accuracy depends more on the object ball hit or the cue ball strike. But I do something analogous with my eyes. If the most critical part of the shot is the hit on the object ball then I look at it last. If the critical part of the shot is getting the right hit on the cue ball, then I look at the cue ball last.

Thanks for your response.
 
KissedOut...Head height over the cue is really a matter of personal preference, although old age or previous injury may result in the necessity of a higher stance for some. I have always shot from a higher stance, unless I'm streched out over the table. For me, I believe I see the shot line better. I totally agree with 3kushn about the, standing upright/decision-making routine, and how our perception is sometimes altered when we drop into shooting position. We call it the "fatal flop"! LOL Aiming, whether done standing up, or confirming when you are down in your shooting stance, is entirely perceptual. This is one reason why finding your 'vision center' is important. Everyone perceives things a little bit differently...just like we're all built differently, think differently and learn differently...which is why there is no "one size fits all" in anything pool.

I do like your idea of when and where to look last. We find that there are really only a few (4) situations where looking at the CB when stroking is more advantageous...the break, a kick, a jump, and a masse'. Naturally there are exceptions (i.e.: people who look at the CB last on every shot). Everything else is OB last when stroking through the CB, because your cue goes where your eyes go! :thumbup:

Some people inaccurately call what we teach "cookie cutter", because they have no idea what it's really about. The truth is, that we "fit" people to their own strokes...not the other way around. We give you an accurate, repeatable, and reliable way to train yourself to be as good as you want to be. You still have to put in the table time...and you need some kind of regular competition, to test your skills and demeanor under pressure. But it works for most people who use it correctly. :thumbup:

KissedOut said:
That is an interesting point and I've never really thought about it this way with regard to head height being influenced by whether the shot accuracy depends more on the object ball hit or the cue ball strike. But I do something analogous with my eyes. If the most critical part of the shot is the hit on the object ball then I look at it last. If the critical part of the shot is getting the right hit on the cue ball, then I look at the cue ball last.

Thanks for your response.
Click to expand...
 
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I find the best security when stretched is to keep the right foot planted as solid as possible, near exact as your normal stance as you possibly can, solid and secure across the shot line.

If you have to lift your heel for more stretch keep the ball and toes on the floor. I assume you are not toe pointing on the shot line in your normal stance as it will have you off balance.
You deliver normal from the hip line (or above) and over the instep and toes of the right foot. The left leg can hang in space if it wants as your body and bridge hand are your counter balance.

Make sure you are on balance. If the foot/toes are forward on the line you may as well perform a pirouette for the crowd. If you can't get into a solid position then use the bridge or left handed.

Learn to apply your ape index for every shot, especially when stretched. Make sure you have plenty of arm length on the cue stick for a smooth delivery. When stretched out many players jab or kill the tip as it reaches the cue ball due to improper arm length, the results are not very pretty.

It's a standard approach just like a normal stance; I play opposite handed 3C and pool. When you practice go through 2 racks or more of straight pool opposite handed, don't just shoot shots, play position and patterns.

If you want to toe point you should point with both feet and find a balance point which will be short lived. I am not a fan but am guilty of it if I become lazy.

Same approach for left handed

Sincerely: SS
 
SmoothStroke said:
I find the best security when stretched is to keep the right foot planted as solid as possible, near exact as your normal stance as you possibly can, solid and secure across the shot line.

If you have to lift your heel for more stretch keep the ball and toes on the floor. I assume you are not toe pointing on the shot line in your normal stance as it will have you off balance.
You deliver normal from the hip line (or above) and over the instep and toes of the right foot. The left leg can hang in space if it wants as your body and bridge hand are your counter balance.

Make sure you are on balance. If the foot/toes are forward on the line you may as well perform a pirouette for the crowd. If you can't get into a solid position then use the bridge or left handed.

Learn to apply your ape index for every shot, especially when stretched. Make sure you have plenty of arm length on the cue stick for a smooth delivery. When stretched out many players jab or kill the tip as it reaches the cue ball due to improper arm length, the results are not very pretty.

It's a standard approach just like a normal stance; I play opposite handed 3C and pool. When you practice go through 2 racks or more of straight pool opposite handed, don't just shoot shots, play position and patterns.

If you want to toe point you should point with both feet and find a balance point which will be short lived. I am not a fan but am guilty of it if I become lazy.

Same approach for left handed

Sincerely: SS
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Ape index? Could you give me link to find out more? I googled but they seemed to be more talking about swimming and rock climbing.

I do not point my toes (at least not on purpose). What I strive for in my basic stance is for my right foot to be angled so that the cue is directly over a line going across my foot at the base of the toes, what I think of as my toeline. I visualize it as a vertical plane that they are all on and that passes directly through the aiming point. I try to preserve the relationship between my head, my cue my arm and my right foot as much as possible when I have to stretch.

I do find that just having this discussion is sharpening my focus on stretch shots when I watch billiards matches on video.

Thanks for the response.
 
Scott Lee said:
I do like your idea of when and where to look last. We find that there are really only a few (4) situations where looking at the CB when stroking is more advantageous...the break, a kick, a jump, and a masse'. Naturally there are exceptions (i.e.: people who look at the CB last on every shot). Everything else is OB last when stroking through the CB, because your cue goes where your eyes go! :thumbup:
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I suspect that this is one of those areas where pool and billiards are a little different. While it is true that the cue goes where you eyes go, the cue ball (the one we are more concerned about in billiards) goes where the hit and english take it, so it seems reasonable that in the balance of focus between the two, billiards would be more variable than pool. Sometimes we need a "pool-quality" hit on the object ball, as when having to bank the first ball around the second to miss a kiss. But sometimes the hit on the object ball is far less critical and the action you need off the cue ball is the important thing in that shot, like in a spin shot.

I wonder if the tendency for billiard players to be more upright than pool players (although obviously there are many exceptions) developed from a need to be a little more flexible in where the focus is during the stroke?

Thanks for your response.
 
KissedOut said:
I suspect that this is one of those areas where pool and billiards are a little different. While it is true that the cue goes where you eyes go, the cue ball (the one we are more concerned about in billiards) goes where the hit and english take it, so it seems reasonable that in the balance of focus between the two, billiards would be more variable than pool. Sometimes we need a "pool-quality" hit on the object ball, as when having to bank the first ball around the second to miss a kiss. But sometimes the hit on the object ball is far less critical and the action you need off the cue ball is the important thing in that shot, like in a spin shot.

I wonder if the tendency for billiard players to be more upright than pool players (although obviously there are many exceptions) developed from a need to be a little more flexible in where the focus is during the stroke?

Thanks for your response.
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That's why I'm saying that I think you should be taking advice from 3-C players and teachers. There are some unknowns here, and I think it's worthwhile to explore what they might be before you develop your stance.

Back when I was experimenting with stance in pool, I asked around a lot and found that a lot of players had no idea why they stood the way they did. Many still don't and some don't care. So it may take you awhile to find the right person to consult for 3-C, but the search will be worth it. If you were in the NY area I would be able to refer you to someone.
 
FranCrimi said:
That's why I'm saying that I think you should be taking advice from 3-C players and teachers. There are some unknowns here, and I think it's worthwhile to explore what they might be before you develop your stance.

Back when I was experimenting with stance in pool, I asked around a lot and found that a lot of players had no idea why they stood the way they did. Many still don't and some don't care. So it may take you awhile to find the right person to consult for 3-C, but the search will be worth it. If you were in the NY area I would be able to refer you to someone.
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I may take you up on that referral next summer, as I may be coming to watch the Verhoeven event next year. In the mean time I will have to sharpen up my observational skills and watch what the big boys do all of the 3C video that is available.

The one lesson I've taken so far was from a good 3C player who has played at the national level. At one time I was ready to take a lesson from a well known pool instructor, and I don't think that would have been a bad thing at all but the timing didn't work out and since then I've come to the same conclusion that you have advanced - actual lessons would be better coming from a 3C specialist. Fortunately there are some around and I have some tentative plans for some road trips to various places where they are. Folks like our own Bob Jewett, Darryl Martineau in Sacramento, Robert Raiford in FL, etc. Plus now I can ask you about NY folks. :grin-square:

Thanks for your response.
 
KissedOut said:
I may take you up on that referral next summer, as I may be coming to watch the Verhoeven event next year. In the mean time I will have to sharpen up my observational skills and watch what the big boys do all of the 3C video that is available.

The one lesson I've taken so far was from a good 3C player who has played at the national level. At one time I was ready to take a lesson from a well known pool instructor, and I don't think that would have been a bad thing at all but the timing didn't work out and since then I've come to the same conclusion that you have advanced - actual lessons would be better coming from a 3C specialist. Fortunately there are some around and I have some tentative plans for some road trips to various places where they are. Folks like our own Bob Jewett, Darryl Martineau in Sacramento, Robert Raiford in FL, etc. Plus now I can ask you about NY folks. :grin-square:

Thanks for your response.
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Definitely let me know when you plan a trip to NY. I'd like to take that lesson along with you.
 
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