APA Cost Analysis vs Pro Tour

[BmoreMoney]

How about this? Leagues were built off the bar table manufacturers, and a couple of pro poolplayers, who had an idea for a franchised, handicapped pool league. A league, btw, that spawned a quarter million dues paying members! Those members have no clue who professional poolplayers are, and could care less, unfortunately. Sadly, there is no pro pool to vilify.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Scott, I agree 100% with what you said about leaguers having no idea who the pros are and could care less. I've seen that for myself a thousand times over. I guess my question to you is why do you think that is the case? I guess the easiest, most simplistic answer is lack of exposure. I'm sure to a large extent that is true but even that doesn't make that much sense to me.

Obviously most of us here on AZ is a whole lot more involved in most aspects of pool than the majority of league players but I still can't understand the disconnect. I realize the social aspects is probably the main reason most do league but I still have to believe there is some level of interest in pool otherwise those same people could just go to the same bar to hang out opposed to joining and playing in a league.

Back to the " exposure " issue. I kinda feel like the lack of exposure is on the pros themselves. It is true that if there were to be an official organization it would be much easier with much better results. However, there is nothing at all stopping each individual person going around putting themselves out there. I spoke about " branding " in one of those streaming drama threads and that applies to this as well. Once again if everyone was organized it would be much better but an Individual could work on their own product " themselves " and achieve pretty much the same thing. I'm pretty sure it is a combination of lack of motivation and direction. I think most times the mindset is very short sighted and not looking at the big picture longterm. For instance thinking we'll " I'm not getting paid anything for this " appearence tonight so....." opposed to I am building a brand and this is the first step onto a very long road.

 

[chefjeff]

What proof do you have that leagues succeeding is going to be beneficial to the growth of professional pool?

I don't have proof, but here in town our leagues systems (15 or more that I can count) are rocking and rolling. I've noticed that many league players are the ones who show up for big events at Big Dogs, like the one coming up in a week or so.

So, I'd say that leagues are helpful to having a crowd at a pro event, as you have an educated base that can easily appreciate what a pro does with his cue.

Leagues CAN be the basis for putting asses in the seats, and that, of course, CAN lead to more money for pool.

But robbing the leagues and giving it to the pros is not the way, imho. Educating the league players about the pros is the first step. Any other steps must follow that.

My opinion here from playing leagues for over 30 and counting and comparing to other cities that don't have such great league systems.

So, here's my advice to anyone who wants pool to grow:

1. Stop dissing leagues
2. Start encouraging leagues
3. Give the education time to gel.
4. Hold pro events.
5 MARKET THE SHIT OUT OF THESE EVENTS
6. Count the money!


Jeff Livingston

 

[jburkm002]

If a pro tour were to make someone/anyone money. You would have everyone fighting for the rights. It's not about giving money away. It's about making money. Most venues don't have much room for a fan base. Like a 1000 fans, not 50. Even most pool enthusiasts don't want to pay to watch pros play. Apparently not enough money being made to stream for free. How many pros are there really? Full time pros. Players who play 20-40 tournaments a year and don't have other jobs. Just don't think there is enough interest.
What I think could be nice. Is if some like APA etc could sponsor the top 5 or so American players to play in more international events.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[jasonlaus]

If a pro tour were to make someone/anyone money. You would have everyone fighting for the rights. It's not about giving money away. It's about making money. Most venues don't have much room for a fan base. Like a 1000 fans, not 50. Even most pool enthusiasts don't want to pay to watch pros play. Apparently not enough money being made to stream for free. How many pros are there really? Full time pros. Players who play 20-40 tournaments a year and don't have other jobs. Just don't think there is enough interest.
What I think could be nice. Is if some like APA etc could sponsor the top 5 or so American players to play in more international events.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Playing in International events wouldn't help APA at all........unless they are setting up leagues out of the Country.
Jason

 

[Celophanewrap]

Playing in International events wouldn't help APA at all........unless they are setting up leagues out of the Country.
Jason

Like in Canada, Japan, and China?
Billiards seems to be doing just fine in those places, the concern is here.

I remember in the days of the old tour, at least in the pool hall I frequented, Johnny Archer came out and did a sort of a master class and a Q & A, then played some very short races against everybody that wanted to for $20 a set then he signed autographs and sat around and talked for a while.

A day or two later Steve Mizerak and a couple of other players, I think Dallas West and Mike Siegal came out. They didn't play but they took time to sign autographs and talk and just hang out for a while. Just getting a little encouragement or a few words meant so much coming from guys like that. I'm sure they were paid some sort of "honorarium" for their time but they were there. It helped the business and helped build the league.

Back then during that week you could go to just about any pool hall in town and see one or two them playing and at least once during the tour stop there was some big challenge match set up at a local room between a couple of the pros for a substantial amount. When word of those got out it always drew an huge crowd.

I know none of that happens here anymore, there just isn't the interest or the market for it and we no longer have the pool rooms we used to, and pool, at least at the pro level is really missing the personality that it had back then.

The internet made the world a much smaller place. Before a road player makes the rounds we're talking about him here on AZ, so they can't quietly come into town and clean up anymore. The stories those guys could tell and the people they people they knew and traveled with, it made the game fun and we wanted to be a part of those stories. Before those stories can be told, someone has seen them and posted it on Facebook or Instagram

I was watching some old YouTube of some of the older players, UJ Puckett, Fats, Mosconi, Irving Crane, and others, I think today's players are so much better but not nearly as much fun.

Modern technology changed the fundamental personality of the game, a game that really needed cheap whiskey, rotary dial phones and gambling records kept on a pocket notebook in code instead of on an IPad.

Now it's microbrews and IPAs, email, and video streaming. I'm convinced that pool could have survived low deflection shafts and layered tips, maybe even NASA space age carbon fiber shafts, but the internet and cell phones are really the downfall of pool. Modern technology has been so bad for the game and it really could have been so positive.

Pool needs a hero, it so could have been Earl Strickland, Shannon Daulton, or Danny Basovich, giant personalities, great stories and I'm not sure they knew how much fun it was just to listen to them talk. Instead we're left with the likes of Karl Boyes or The Ko's. All excellent players, but they don't seem like much fun, although I have heard that Karl can totally blow his doors off every now and then, but that's neither here nor there.
I think I miss the stories most of all.

 

[Kid Dynomite]

Scott, I agree 100% with what you said about leaguers having no idea who the pros are and could care less. I've seen that for myself a thousand times over. I guess my question to you is why do you think that is the case? I guess the easiest, most simplistic answer is lack of exposure. I'm sure to a large extent that is true but even that doesn't make that much sense to me.

Obviously most of us here on AZ is a whole lot more involved in most aspects of pool than the majority of league players but I still can't understand the disconnect. I realize the social aspects is probably the main reason most do league but I still have to believe there is some level of interest in pool otherwise those same people could just go to the same bar to hang out opposed to joining and playing in a league.

Back to the " exposure " issue. I kinda feel like the lack of exposure is on the pros themselves. It is true that if there were to be an official organization it would be much easier with much better results. However, there is nothing at all stopping each individual person going around putting themselves out there. I spoke about " branding " in one of those streaming drama threads and that applies to this as well. Once again if everyone was organized it would be much better but an Individual could work on their own product " themselves " and achieve pretty much the same thing. I'm pretty sure it is a combination of lack of motivation and direction. I think most times the mindset is very short sighted and not looking at the big picture longterm. For instance thinking we'll " I'm not getting paid anything for this " appearence tonight so....." opposed to I am building a brand and this is the first step onto a very long road.

Regarding exposure:
Appleton did a nice instructional video with TAR. He would love to send a link to a 5 or 10 minute segment of his video to "all" 250,000 members!!! If they like the content then they have the option to buy!

The numerous companies that do business with the leagues like TAR and Big Truck and ETC. can not get the exposure to the 250,000 members let alone the 300,000,000 USA citizens.

Funny when they want to, they can get a hold of all 250,000 members! But, can not send a mass email a week or 2 before a big TAR or Big Truck event??? It just makes no sense to me??? I play too good for leagues and stay clear for various reasons. But, the lower level players would love to "KNOW" about and support these things. I thought BCA and TAR alliance would yield some fruit and drive growth and exposure. But, sadly they never sent any mass emails and would never send out streaming credits to view TAR matches as prizes and awards! The industry is clueless when it comes to marketing and promotion. Clueless!!! But, that is just my opinion and a primary reason that most league short stops do not know pro players and pro players do not get the "EXPOSURE"

KD

 

[KissedOut]

You are persistent!

Let's reverse things! Leagues were built off the mosconi's and Mizerak's and the leagues are riding the coat tails of pro pool and not the other way around! So, please stop vilifying pro pool which predates leagues and is largely due to its financial success!

Kd

You saying it doesn't make it so. Pool was a lot more popular at the beginning of Mosconi's career than it is is now, so to ascribe the success of leagues to Mosconi is just, well, silly.

 

[KissedOut]

Regarding exposure:
Appleton did a nice instructional video with TAR. He would love to send a link to a 5 or 10 minute segment of his video to "all" 250,000 members!!! If they like the content then they have the option to buy!

The numerous companies that do business with the leagues like TAR and Big Truck and ETC. can not get the exposure to the 250,000 members let alone the 300,000,000 USA citizens.

Funny when they want to, they can get a hold of all 250,000 members! But, can not send a mass email a week or 2 before a big TAR or Big Truck event??? It just makes no sense to me??? I play too good for leagues and stay clear for various reasons. But, the lower level players would love to "KNOW" about and support these things. I thought BCA and TAR alliance would yield some fruit and drive growth and exposure. But, sadly they never sent any mass emails and would never send out streaming credits to view TAR matches as prizes and awards! The industry is clueless when it comes to marketing and promotion. Clueless!!! But, that is just my opinion and a primary reason that most league short stops do not know pro players and pro players do not get the "EXPOSURE"

KD

So in addition to taking their money you now want to use their emailing list to let pro players spam them with marketing.

I just noticed that you list your location as Washington DC. You wouldn't happen to be a Congressman would you? - because you seem to have the same sense of entitlement to other people's money as the members of the political class.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I don't think this idea would work, about getting league players to support a pro tour. Its a completely different demographic. The league player doesn't give two sh!ts about pro pool.

Also...

If there was such an abundance of league money, then Griffin or someone else would have formed their OWN league, with the purpose from day one to support pro pool. I think (but not certain), the BCAPL sort of does that, as does the USAPool League. However, neither one is contributing 40 million dollars, like the OP is suggesting is their rough profit. They are probably contributing just a few 10's of thousands total, to pro pool, imo.

 

[BmoreMoney]

Regarding exposure:
Appleton did a nice instructional video with TAR. He would love to send a link to a 5 or 10 minute segment of his video to "all" 250,000 members!!! If they like the content then they have the option to buy!

The numerous companies that do business with the leagues like TAR and Big Truck and ETC. can not get the exposure to the 250,000 members let alone the 300,000,000 USA citizens.

Funny when they want to, they can get a hold of all 250,000 members! But, can not send a mass email a week or 2 before a big TAR or Big Truck event??? It just makes no sense to me??? I play too good for leagues and stay clear for various reasons. But, the lower level players would love to "KNOW" about and support these things. I thought BCA and TAR alliance would yield some fruit and drive growth and exposure. But, sadly they never sent any mass emails and would never send out streaming credits to view TAR matches as prizes and awards! The industry is clueless when it comes to marketing and promotion. Clueless!!! But, that is just my opinion and a primary reason that most league short stops do not know pro players and pro players do not get the "EXPOSURE"

KD

Couple of things KD - In regards to an email blast from APA to all of THEIR members : that is clearly a marketing campaign. I have run multiple extremely large marketing campaigns in the past and I can tell you it is not cheap. Not necessarily in the actual out of pocket for a company to be able to do it but rather the cost for them to do it ( ie cost of service ). As we all know APA is a for profit company. I'm sure to do something of that nature; regardless of who it's for, wants some type of compensation especially considering it's targeting the core audience for the product. I don't believe anyone should fault a for profit company actually wanting to make a profit lol.

As to the " exposure aspect - as I said without being organized and someone actually representig them it will be much tougher. It does not mean it can not be done though. Looking at it on a micro level, each and every player could do this on their own. Often times " touring pros " will be in a city / town for a good week around these tournaments. They will arrive early and stay late around any given tournament to suck up any and all action that they can find. Even if they took ONE night in each town to hit up a local bar where they have a lot of league teams ( it's not hard at all to find a bar that's in some sort of league be it APA, BCA, or whatever league they could be helping themselves.

Think about this for a minute or two : XXX pro could just drop in on league night and do a meet and greet with the league players. They could play a few games with them. After that I am certain they could find AT LEAST a few league players that would happily pay $20 an hour plus expenses ( table time, quarters, a sandwich whatever. They could easily find 5 league players pay $20 bucks a person for a two hour clinic. You can insert any dollar amount in there but for sure you need to know who your customers are and you will need to keep the price low so that you aren't pricing yourself out of the game.

I see a few problems with this right out of the gates. Thing is its not an ACTUAL problem, but a perceived one. I'm thinking most of the pros would feel this is beneath them for some reason ( or their would already be a ton of them doing this ). They would be building their own fan base ( again - branding ), they would actually be helping players improve on their game - at a reasonable price point they could afford and happily pay. After a bit they would be helping these bars out by drawing people, they of course would be helping APA out in sorts but remember they would also be helping themselves at the same time. Taking it a step further each pro could become a " distributor " or sorts for this or that product and sell whatever at each location and make money that way too. They would be spreading good will the whole way too. This is just a few aspects and there are many more. I know this kinda sounds a little too much like a job, but remember we all have to start somewhere.

 

[Kid Dynomite]

So in addition to taking their money you now want to use their emailing list to let pro players spam them with marketing.

I just noticed that you list your location as Washington DC. You wouldn't happen to be a Congressman would you? - because you seem to have the same sense of entitlement to other people's money as the members of the political class.

Several people and myself have said that my opinion is that scenario would be "Stealing" and you are wrong with "Your" statement in red!!!

Regarding spam email! That is not "SPAM" when you give your email address to the league! Second, federal regulations allow you to "OPT-OUT". So, one and done if it is not of interest to you! But, given the persons membership in the league, the emails regarding pool related events would not in my "Opinion" be frowned upon. Nor would products related to pool.

But, keep "hating" on the idea and the players it would benefit!

KD

 

[KissedOut]

Maybe if the pros themselves did a better job of promoting themselves, things might improve. There is a thread going on right now about a video clip, Frost v the Lion in a big $50,000 one pocket match over 5 days in Las Vegas, that was streamed commercially. The thread is about some etiquette issue.

But the real message is that even in a match of this magnitude neither player can be bothered to even try to dress in a remotely professional manner. It is almost studied slovenliness. THESE are the guys that regular folks are going to be motivated to support? I'm not asking for tuxedos, but even if these guys were walking around a beach they would look like bums. They get the respect from others that they themselves show for their sport and their profession.

 

[jasonlaus]

Several people and myself have said that my opinion is that scenario would be "Stealing" and you are wrong with "Your" statement in red!!!

Regarding spam email! That is not "SPAM" when you give your email address to the league! Second, federal regulations allow you to "OPT-OUT". So, one and done if it is not of interest to you! But, given the persons membership in the league, the emails regarding pool related events would not in my "Opinion" be frowned upon. Nor would products related to pool.

But, keep "hating" on the idea and the players it would benefit!

KD

If I'm APA, there isn't a chance in hell I'm giving anyone access to my email list or any other list.
With that said, if Darren wanted to charge $2 or $3 for his DVD(online access) and give APA $1 per purchase then he might have a chance. Remember you're reaching 250 - 300,000 people, and $1 or $2 from even 10% of them is a nice payday. Make a few videos/year say 4 and now he's making $100,000 + without playing a single match. Add to that the exposure and now he's the most recognized name in pool.....right after that "asian" woman .

Show up at events selling vids and doing demos as the "APA PRO" and I think he could do very well.
This goes for any pro that has a great personality and a good work ethic - if they wanted it.

I think I may have just found the flaw in this way of thinking.
Jason

 

[chefjeff]

Several people and myself have said that my opinion is that scenario would be "Stealing" and you are wrong with "Your" statement in red!!!

Regarding spam email! That is not "SPAM" when you give your email address to the league! Second, federal regulations allow you to "OPT-OUT". So, one and done if it is not of interest to you! But, given the persons membership in the league, the emails regarding pool related events would not in my "Opinion" be frowned upon. Nor would products related to pool.

But, keep "hating" on the idea and the players it would benefit!

KD

I agree with you....there seems to be some confusion between the voluntary nature of helping and forcing unwilling players to contribute.

It's probably the election emotions carrying over a little bit into this issue.


Jeff Livingston

 

[bad_hit]

Maybe if the pros themselves did a better job of promoting themselves, things might improve. There is a thread going on right now about a video clip, Frost v the Lion in a big $50,000 one pocket match over 5 days in Las Vegas, that was streamed commercially. The thread is about some etiquette issue.

But the real message is that even in a match of this magnitude neither player can be bothered to even try to dress in a remotely professional manner. It is almost studied slovenliness. THESE are the guys that regular folks are going to be motivated to support? I'm not asking for tuxedos, but even if these guys were walking around a beach they would look like bums. They get the respect from others that they themselves show for their sport and their profession.

:withstupid:

No player in any other sport "dresses up" to "look like a professional" while they're playing. And they all talk trash to each other during matches/games. One of the stupidest things I always hear on this board is how if pro players would just "dress up" and "stop talking trash" they'd be "respectable" and "professional" and THEN pool would take off and everyone would sponsor it and fans would show up in the thousands. Delusional, baseless fallacy.

 

[one stroke]

Regarding exposure:
Appleton did a nice instructional video with TAR. He would love to send a link to a 5 or 10 minute segment of his video to "all" 250,000 members!!! If they like the content then they have the option to buy!

The numerous companies that do business with the leagues like TAR and Big Truck and ETC. can not get the exposure to the 250,000 members let alone the 300,000,000 USA citizens.

Funny when they want to, they can get a hold of all 250,000 members! But, can not send a mass email a week or 2 before a big TAR or Big Truck event??? It just makes no sense to me??? I play too good for leagues and stay clear for various reasons. But, the lower level players would love to "KNOW" about and support these things. I thought BCA and TAR alliance would yield some fruit and drive growth and exposure. But, sadly they never sent any mass emails and would never send out streaming credits to view TAR matches as prizes and awards! The industry is clueless when it comes to marketing and promotion. Clueless!!! But, that is just my opinion and a primary reason that most league short stops do not know pro players and pro players do not get the "EXPOSURE"

KD

ROALMFA ,, you might want to get out and check some of those masters teams out ,,
You play good but you certainly don't play too good for a masters team , it's litterd with pro speed players , several pro's have played league pool ,
The APA under no circumstance should give out any members info ,, if Appleseed wants to get exposure he can beat the streets like the APA did to get thier members

I really don't understand this notion that the APA or any other league should contribute to pro pool ,, it needs to stand on its own to feet it's not a entitlement
The fact is the only ones who see pool as being anything that resembles a game / sport worthy of big money paydays is pro pool players themselves who overestimate where thier place belongs among the other game/sports along with its entertainment value

1

 

[Kid Dynomite]

ROALMFA ,, you might want to get out and check some of those masters teams out ,,
You play good but you certainly don't play too good for a masters team , it's litterd with pro speed players , several pro's have played league pool ,
The APA under no circumstance should give out any members info ,, if Appleseed wants to get exposure he can beat the streets like the APA did to get thier members

I really don't understand this notion that the APA or any other league should contribute to pro pool ,, it needs to stand on its own to feet it's not a entitlement
The fact is the only ones who see pool as being anything that resembles a game / sport worthy of big money paydays is pro pool players themselves who overestimate where thier place belongs among the other game/sports along with its entertainment value

1

Exactly, those master level players events are littered with "Pro Level Players" and the league operator gets a "TON" of flack about those "Master Level" players all the time!!!

After enough dirty looks and conversations and complaints! You get the message to leave the leagues alone! I am not saying, I am better than the master league players! Just that, i stopped playing because the league operators let me know they got tired of the 7 to zip matches and the complaints in their very own special way. So, i don't play!

KD

 

[Straightpool_99]

This whole thing is a joke! Why would the league players pay for a pro tour they don't give a crap about? It's a sad fact, but a fact none the less. What value would the pro pool players provide for their benefactors, I wonder? I think I know the answer to that question....NONE. They would reap the benefits, complain about the payouts and then try to stage a takeover, which they would botch terribly, resulting in the destruction of said league. Rich people do not want to give their money away, unless they get something in return. Either a profit, having their asses kissed or power. I don't see how they would get any of that from sponsoring pro pool. All they would get is a massive headache and red numbers in their books.

 

[BmoreMoney]

For what it's worth, I think Corey's idea wasn't that bad IF it could be pulled off smoothly AND IF EVERYONE was on board. Those are two VERY BIG ifs!

 

[one stroke]

Exactly, those master level players events are littered with "Pro Level Players" and the league operator gets a "TON" of flack about those "Master Level" players all the time!!!

After enough dirty looks and conversations and complaints! You get the message to leave the leagues alone! I am not saying, I am better than the master league players! Just that, i stopped playing because the league operators let me know they got tired of the 7 to zip matches and the complaints in their very own special way. So, i don't play!

KD

Obviously you were in the wrong league

1