Tom Hay's new line of tips

[john coloccia]

What Tom has been doing is illegal... Point of fact... Just because he didn't want to label his country of origin and just because many of you don't care about the law doesn't change the fact it is and has been the law. It is very much black and white and is there for anyone who cares to read about it. Anyone who imports products is required to know the rules and follow them.

Chris, what law are you talking about? Leather goods are specifically EXCLUDED from labeling requirement.

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/bus...y-through-labeling-requirements-under-textile

Just search on "leather". Is there some other law I'm missing? If he's lying to people about it, that's one thing, but so far I think it's one person that's come forward and he doesn't have the e-mails/pms/texts/whatever so we don't really know what he was actually told, if Tom just skirted the question and an assumption was made, or what. I've already mentioned that Billiard Warehouse lists it as an American Made tip, and hopefully Tom will correct that and we can move on.

The swirl remover likely would function as around 3500 grit sandpaper and usually has some carnuba or petroleum products which would help fill and condition the sides of the tip... I doubt you are fooling yourself.....

That was my thought and why I first thought to try it. I figured it might be just abrasive enough to knock off little microscopic stray fibers and smush/burnish them into the sides to make a nice, hard surface, even on a Triangle or Ultraskin.

If it works who cares if you know what your doing :thumbup:
Just fake it like the rest of the professionals

Ha ha...well, maybe I know just a tiny bit more than I'm letting on, but not much.

 

[Dave38]

Concerning mushrooming, I have found with any layered tip, that if you cut the tip down about 2-3 layers, depending on individual layer thickness, before shaping, the chance of mushrooming is less likely to happen. The tip will settle in faster too. The taller you leave the tip, the more likely it will mushroom at least a little. I have quite a few players that have me cut about half of a Kamui off before shaping. Hope this helps.
Dave

 

[BJTyler]

???

Yep I am what's wrong with the thread... Not someone breaking the law for over 4 years....

What Tom has been doing is illegal... Point of fact... Just because he didn't want to label his country of origin and just because many of you don't care about the law doesn't change the fact it is and has been the law. It is very much black and white and is there for anyone who cares to read about it. Anyone who imports products is required to know the rules and follow them.

Can you please cite the relevant law to which you are referring. I could not find it in the FTC link you posted.

From: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/complying-made-usa-standard#todo

"U.S. content must be disclosed on automobiles and textile, wool, and fur products. There’s no law that requires most other products sold in the U.S. to be marked or labeled Made in USA or have any other disclosure about their amount of U.S. content. However, manufacturers and marketers who choose to make claims about the amount of U.S. content in their products must comply with the FTC’s Made in USA policy."

..and as JC correctly noted above, leather goods & trim seem to be specifically exempt from textiles.

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/bus...y-through-labeling-requirements-under-textile

 

[Tramp Steamer]

Yep I am what's wrong with the thread... Not someone breaking the law for over 4 years....

What Tom has been doing is illegal... Point of fact... Just because he didn't want to label his country of origin and just because many of you don't care about the law doesn't change the fact it is and has been the law. It is very much black and white and is there for anyone who cares to read about it. Anyone who imports products is required to know the rules and follow them.

In the 4 years I have been going to events I have been told by several installers that they have been told the tips were made in Florida... I am not going to list them here or drag them into it because I told Tom I was dropping it since it is his word vs theirs so it is a push... but Had the labeling rules been followed there would have been zero chance it could have happened.....

As a manufacturer in the billiard industry I see fakes, unmarked imports and even missmarked imports that are all too common... I don't really care if you don't buy any of my products because of the fact I want a level playing field... You should be able to buy any product and have confidence that the law is supposed to protect you and assist you in making choices...

When you buy fake mooris or G2s or Kamuis that you think are real not only are you not getting a genuine product but you may be helping to tear down the original product... When you are buying some imports that are not marked you are helping to support some of those same manufacturers... There are far fewer manufacturers than there are brands.

Tell it to the Marines.
I'd imagine your cue tip business is pretty much shot to hell. At least for the foreseeable future.

 

[ZeroSkylineX]

Can you please cite the relevant law to which you are referring. I could not find it in the FTC link you posted.

From: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/complying-made-usa-standard#todo

"U.S. content must be disclosed on automobiles and textile, wool, and fur products. There’s no law that requires most other products sold in the U.S. to be marked or labeled Made in USA or have any other disclosure about their amount of U.S. content. However, manufacturers and marketers who choose to make claims about the amount of U.S. content in their products must comply with the FTC’s Made in USA policy."

..and as JC correctly noted above, leather goods & trim seem to be specifically exempt from textiles.

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/bus...y-through-labeling-requirements-under-textile

Waiting for The Renfro to respond to this. This will silence everything once and for all. If it's not required as he claimed to be, Tom can go on his way like he always did.

 

[cubswin]

What's wrong with this thread is Rentfree, and Cameltoe. I disagree, however, that members have caused the disappearance of pro players.

Along with the people mentioned, you've also dragged it down with the "cameltoe" name change.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

So, let me get this straight. Someone is slagging Tom for not marking his tips, claiming that what he is doing is illegal for not marking them with their country of origin? And, a few other posters have discovered that this isn't even a requirement.

Meanwhile, the guy throwing all of the accusations around doesn't even make the Kitech tips. I mean, he soaks the Elkmasters (base for the soft), Triangles (base for the medium) and LePros (base for the hard), and presses them. Then relabels them as Kitechs. I can understand why he's pissed. Tom offers a layered tip for less than he tries to sell Elks and LePros for. $15 for a LePro?? I buy a box for $30. That's 60c per tip. Unless he's soaking them in Saffron juice, or polyjuice potion (Harry Potter reference), that's a lot of markup. And they really don't play any better than a good Elk, Triangle or LePro.

Also, is there any proof that he actually does anything with them? I know he's worried about someone picking up on the secret sauce. Milk duds have been made for years. They're being sold for a fair price by PoolDawg. I just have trouble floating $15 for a tip that sans camel urine and divine prayer/pressing would retail for $1. Perhaps $2 in the case of the Triangle. And....Triangles have been considered a pretty decent one piece tip for years. It isn't surprising that people seem to love the KiTech medium - it's made from a Triangle.

 

[billiardthought]

So, let me get this straight. Someone is slagging Tom for not marking his tips, claiming that what he is doing is illegal for not marking them with their country of origin? And, a few other posters have discovered that this isn't even a requirement.

Meanwhile, the guy throwing all of the accusations around doesn't even make the Kitech tips. I mean, he soaks the Elkmasters (base for the soft), Triangles (base for the medium) and LePros (base for the hard), and presses them. Then relabels them as Kitechs. I can understand why he's pissed. Tom offers a layered tip for less than he tries to sell Elks and LePros for. $15 for a LePro?? I buy a box for $30. That's 60c per tip. Unless he's soaking them in Saffron juice, or polyjuice potion (Harry Potter reference), that's a lot of markup. And they really don't play any better than a good Elk, Triangle or LePro.

Also, is there any proof that he actually does anything with them? I know he's worried about someone picking up on the secret sauce. Milk duds have been made for years. They're being sold for a fair price by PoolDawg. I just have trouble floating $15 for a tip that sans camel urine and divine prayer/pressing would retail for $1. Perhaps $2 in the case of the Triangle. And....Triangles have been considered a pretty decent one piece tip for years. It isn't surprising that people seem to love the KiTech medium - it's made from a Triangle.

This post made me more excited than when I get a cue in the mail.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

Along with the people mentioned, you've also dragged it down with the "cameltoe" name change.

I thought it was kinda catchy. You know, the cameltoe (foot) in mouth thing.
You didn't even mention Rentfree. Why not?
Bottom line here cubskin, Tom Hay is a friend of mine and I just didn't like the odds.
Like it, or lump it.

 

[cubswin]

I thought it was kinda catchy. You know, the cameltoe (foot) in mouth thing.
You didn't even mention Rentfree. Why not?
Bottom line here cubskin, Tom Hay is a friend of mine and I just didn't like the odds.
Like it, or lump it.

Well if Tom is a friend of yours, I would think you wouldn't want to drag a thread about how good his tips are into the dumpster. Funny way to show friendship if you ask me.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

Well if Tom is a friend of yours, I would think you wouldn't want to drag a thread about how good his tips are into the dumpster. Funny way to show friendship if you ask me.

Wait a minute. Stop the presses. You mean to sit there and tell me that two guys who assassinate the hell out of Tom's character should go unscathed, while I be punished for rearranging their names.
What the hell are you, a Democrat, or something?

 

[cubswin]

Wait a minute. Stop the presses. You mean to sit there and tell me that two guys who assassinate the hell out of Tom's character should go unscathed, while I be punished for rearranging their names.
What the hell are you, a Democrat, or something?

Nope, not a democrat. And I don't like either of them, and I think it is a bunch of nonsense to complain about Tom selling tips. Obviously Renfrow is upset, because he thinks his over priced tips are the only ones that should be sold on this forum. The other username, well who knows the real motivation.

And then there is you, dragging things further down by resorting to juvenile name calling. Instead of just saying you like Tom's tips, letting the rest of us know what you like about them.

Oh well, my last comment on this thread, as Tom has said he is leaving the forum anyway. Which I think is a shame.

 

[Maxx]

So, let me get this straight. Someone is slagging Tom for not marking his tips, claiming that what he is doing is illegal for not marking them with their country of origin? And, a few other posters have discovered that this isn't even a requirement.

Meanwhile, the guy throwing all of the accusations around doesn't even make the Kitech tips. I mean, he soaks the Elkmasters (base for the soft), Triangles (base for the medium) and LePros (base for the hard), and presses them. Then relabels them as Kitechs. I can understand why he's pissed. Tom offers a layered tip for less than he tries to sell Elks and LePros for. $15 for a LePro?? I buy a box for $30. That's 60c per tip. Unless he's soaking them in Saffron juice, or polyjuice potion (Harry Potter reference), that's a lot of markup. And they really don't play any better than a good Elk, Triangle or LePro.

Also, is there any proof that he actually does anything with them? I know he's worried about someone picking up on the secret sauce. Milk duds have been made for years. They're being sold for a fair price by PoolDawg. I just have trouble floating $15 for a tip that sans camel urine and divine prayer/pressing would retail for $1. Perhaps $2 in the case of the Triangle. And....Triangles have been considered a pretty decent one piece tip for years. It isn't surprising that people seem to love the KiTech medium - it's made from a Triangle.

Good post. Renfro where is the MSDS for the secret sauce. Is it safe, does it cause cancer, will people have square babies if they shape the tips?

I demand to know.

 

[The Renfro]

Chris, what law are you talking about? Leather goods are specifically EXCLUDED from labeling requirement.

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/bus...y-through-labeling-requirements-under-textile

Just search on "leather". Is there some other law I'm missing? If he's lying to people about it, that's one thing, but so far I think it's one person that's come forward and he doesn't have the e-mails/pms/texts/whatever so we don't really know what he was actually told, if Tom just skirted the question and an assumption was made, or what. I've already mentioned that Billiard Warehouse lists it as an American Made tip, and hopefully Tom will correct that and we can move on.



That was my thought and why I first thought to try it. I figured it might be just abrasive enough to knock off little microscopic stray fibers and smush/burnish them into the sides to make a nice, hard surface, even on a Triangle or Ultraskin.



Ha ha...well, maybe I know just a tiny bit more than I'm letting on, but not much.

All leather goods do not fall under textiles and the code is large.. I'll look later but this is a good indicator since if leather was exempted completely regardless of industry this ruling would not exist..... http://rulings.cbp.gov/detail.asp?ru=f89869&qu=leather+country+of+origin

I have been beating this drum for years so this was is not a personal thing... Predator makes their chalk in China without a label of origin... I have argued with people that tweeten makes it or they are making it themselves. I have argued with the importer of Cyborg/On as they come in unmarked with COO.... I have linked Cuesouls packaging that claims they are a US Tip..

Notice OB says made in China on the Box.... I actually had some input on the chalk formula and labels as I wanted Royce and OB to have a solid offering for the players that could compete with the other premiums including OURS....

Everyone has their own windmill to joist with... Mine is truth in labels and origin... IF you want to know what processes we do for the Ki-techs I have never lied.. It's on the Outsville page for anyone who wants to look and if you research you will find me saying the same things for the last several years.

 

[GoldCrown]

Oh well, my last comment on this thread, as Tom has said he is leaving the forum anyway. Which I think is a shame.

I did not read all the posts. Tom is a first class person to deal with. I'm sure he does not make a lot of money from everything he sells. I hope he does not leave.
Also Tom is a sharing kind of person. If someone wants to learn about using a lathe for tip replacement or repair he will help out.

 

[Wedge]

Accu-Rack

All leather goods do not fall under textiles and the code is large.. I'll look later but this is a good indicator since if leather was exempted completely regardless of industry this ruling would not exist..... http://rulings.cbp.gov/detail.asp?ru=f89869&qu=leather+country+of+origin

I have been beating this drum for years so this was is not a personal thing... Predator makes their chalk in China without a label of origin... I have argued with people that tweeten makes it or they are making it themselves. I have argued with the importer of Cyborg/On as they come in unmarked with COO.... I have linked Cuesouls packaging that claims they are a US Tip..

Notice OB says made in China on the Box.... I actually had some input on the chalk formula and labels as I wanted Royce and OB to have a solid offering for the players that could compete with the other premiums including OURS....

Everyone has their own windmill to joist with... Mine is truth in labels and origin... IF you want to know what processes we do for the Ki-techs I have never lied.. It's on the Outsville page for anyone who wants to look and if you research you will find me saying the same things for the last several years.

Are your Accu-Racks made exclusively in the US with US material?

Wedge

 

[The Renfro]

Are your Accu-Racks made exclusively in the US with US material?

Wedge

Yes they are.... even the carry tubes and printed inserts... We try and order everything from US makers but that is not always possible. The Leather clips for the Great White come from a US retailer and are unmarked but if I had to bet those are made overseas so I keep sourcing...

We used to carry an engraved metal clip as well and the last order they shipped they forgot to remove the COO stickers as they had previously told me they were made here and engraved in California... We have not found a replacement for those but are still looking......

 

[Wedge]

Nice

Yes they are.... even the carry tubes and printed inserts... We try and order everything from US makers but that is not always possible. The Leather clips for the Great White come from a US retailer and are unmarked but if I had to bet those are made overseas so I keep sourcing...

We used to carry an engraved metal clip as well and the last order they shipped they forgot to remove the COO stickers as they had previously told me they were made here and engraved in California... We have not found a replacement for those but are still looking......

Good job

Thanks

 

[Dave38]

All leather goods do not fall under textiles and the code is large.. I'll look later but this is a good indicator since if leather was exempted completely regardless of industry this ruling would not exist......

So AFTER the fact YOU have claimed over and over that Tom HAS broken the law.... and you will report him if you have to...you now say the above...isn't that kinda back pedaling? YOU made accusations and stated as fact that Tom was in violation of the laws, now you say...I'll look later?
If you are as honest and forth coming as you say then....
How about answering these next questions....HONESTLY, are your tips that you sell basically Altered elkmasters, lepros, and triangles, and the treatment you soak these in...can you release the MDS sheets so we as intallers know what chemical cocktail you are exposing us to and are you doing this in the USA and are you following all proper procedures while doing this chemical treatment, including not exposing the outside environment and fellow Americans to the fumes of the chemicals you are using, Are you doing it in an industrial classified section of the city or are you home brewing? Toxic waste disposal is another issue...Are you dumping the solution down a drain and poisoning our water tables or paying a waste treatment company with proper handling certs to handle the toxic waste you need to remove? How many more questions do you want fired your way? Trust me, one call to your own cities' Dept. of Public Safety and you will be answering more questions and paying lawyers more than Hillary has, and may end up outta business if you aren't following every one of the laws concerning the usage/storage/disposal of anything considered a chemical treatment.
You could be in bigger trouble than Tom could ever think of being in. The US laws and the local laws concerning proper chemical usage/storage/disposal especially in a neighborhood environment are far more formidable than any import laws.
Now back to our regularly scheduled programing,
Dave

 

[j2pac]

So AFTER the fact YOU have claimed over and over that Tom HAS broken the law.... and you will report him if you have to...you now say the above...isn't that kinda back pedaling? YOU made accusations and stated as fact that Tom was in violation of the laws, now you say...I'll look later?
If you are as honest and forth coming as you say then....
How about answering these next questions....HONESTLY, are your tips that you sell basically Altered elkmasters, lepros, and triangles, and the treatment you soak these in...can you release the MDS sheets so we as intallers know what chemical cocktail you are exposing us to and are you doing this in the USA and are you following all proper procedures while doing this chemical treatment, including not exposing the outside environment and fellow Americans to the fumes of the chemicals you are using, Are you doing it in an industrial classified section of the city or are you home brewing? Toxic waste disposal is another issue...Are you dumping the solution down a drain and poisoning our water tables or paying a waste treatment company with proper handling certs to handle the toxic waste you need to remove? How many more questions do you want fired your way? Trust me, one call to your own cities' Dept. of Public Safety and you will be answering more questions and paying lawyers more than Hillary has, and may end up outta business if you aren't following every one of the laws concerning the usage/storage/disposal of anything considered a chemical treatment.
You could be in bigger trouble than Tom could ever think of being in. The US laws and the local laws concerning proper chemical usage/storage/disposal especially in a neighborhood environment are far more formidable than any import laws.
Now back to our regularly scheduled programing,
Dave

This could be interesting. I think the EPA laws concerning the type of legalities you're describing, are "luckily" only about 9 million pages long.
j2