? for team captains....how do you deal with egos

L

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Let me preface this by saying I know it's perfectly natural to bw proud of your accomplishments when you win and I have no problem with that. What is my problem is players thinking they are better than they really are.

It gets tiring to hear...i have the best record...i beat so and so by this many poi Ts or games....i got this patch or that patch....i oughta be raised to a 6 after I skunked a 3 last week, from one of my 5's lol. The reason I put lol there is because...in my opinion skunking a weak 3 might raise you to a 6 but that don't mean you are capable of playing like a 6.


One of the jobs as a captain is to know just how good your players are...what are their strengths and weaknesses. I came up with my own rating system based on a multitude of things leading up to their level of play. Things such as shot making....cue ball control
...saftey play or lack of...etc...etc.

My ratings are named as follows ...caveat..i know every one has good nights and bad nights lets use 5's as an example

Weak....really oughta be a 4
Average...should beat any weak player their level and most players under their level except for bad ass 4's
Good....should beat anyone under their level and hang with bad ass 5's and weak 6's
Bad ass...capable of winning against against any 6 or 7 on a good night.

In order to get wins I ha e to match my players up with who I think they have the best chance of beating. I have been doing pretty fair at that and consequently I have 2 5's that have gotten a lil cocky....in my opinion.

So.....i decided to give them a reality check the last few weeks. Working great bur I probably overdid it last night.

5 a. The one who said he oughta be a 6. So I have been matching him up with better players that I usually play ...being the best 5 on my team no I'm not cocky ...being the only 5 that has been a 6...4 times at that speaks for me as a result player 5 a has lost his last 4 in a row. Last night I put him up against a damn good 6 and he lost 46-11. He had one helluva shocked look on his face

5b weak 5 with a good win record due fo my matching up. Last night I put him up against a damn good 4 and he lost 31-9. Hw was shocked also to the point of leaving early and txt me today apologizing for leaving ....saying his pride got hurt last night.

Both losses cost our team dearly in points. Both were 18-2 losses. The worst the losses these guys have ever had.

I feel kinda bad and hope I did not demoralize them too much and I never thought onw would say his pride was hurt.

I have been trying to tell these guys in a nice way to not let their win records fool them and i guess deep down I wanted to show them they are not as good as me even though they are both my handicap with slightly better records due to my always matching up with the other teams best players.

Whether I was right or wrong it proved my point that just because 2 players have the same handicap does not mean they play at the same level.
 
lorider said:
Let me preface this by saying I know it's perfectly natural to bw proud of your accomplishments when you win and I have no problem with that. What is my problem is players thinking they are better than they really are.

It gets tiring to hear...i have the best record...i beat so and so by this many poi Ts or games....i got this patch or that patch....i oughta be raised to a 6 after I skunked a 3 last week, from one of my 5's lol. The reason I put lol there is because...in my opinion skunking a weak 3 might raise you to a 6 but that don't mean you are capable of playing like a 6.


One of the jobs as a captain is to know just how good your players are...what are their strengths and weaknesses. I came up with my own rating system based on a multitude of things leading up to their level of play. Things such as shot making....cue ball control
...saftey play or lack of...etc...etc.

My ratings are named as follows ...caveat..i know every one has good nights and bad nights lets use 5's as an example

Weak....really oughta be a 4
Average...should beat any weak player their level and most players under their level except for bad ass 4's
Good....should beat anyone under their level and hang with bad ass 5's and weak 6's
Bad ass...capable of winning against against any 6 or 7 on a good night.

In order to get wins I ha e to match my players up with who I think they have the best chance of beating. I have been doing pretty fair at that and consequently I have 2 5's that have gotten a lil cocky....in my opinion.

So.....i decided to give them a reality check the last few weeks. Working great bur I probably overdid it last night.

5 a. The one who said he oughta be a 6. So I have been matching him up with better players that I usually play ...being the best 5 on my team no I'm not cocky ...being the only 5 that has been a 6...4 times at that speaks for me as a result player 5 a has lost his last 4 in a row. Last night I put him up against a damn good 6 and he lost 46-11. He had one helluva shocked look on his face

5b weak 5 with a good win record due fo my matching up. Last night I put him up against a damn good 4 and he lost 31-9. Hw was shocked also to the point of leaving early and txt me today apologizing for leaving ....saying his pride got hurt last night.

Both losses cost our team dearly in points. Both were 18-2 losses. The worst the losses these guys have ever had.

I feel kinda bad and hope I did not demoralize them too much and I never thought onw would say his pride was hurt.

I have been trying to tell these guys in a nice way to not let their win records fool them and i guess deep down I wanted to show them they are not as good as me even though they are both my handicap with slightly better records due to my always matching up with the other teams best players.

Whether I was right or wrong it proved my point that just because 2 players have the same handicap does not mean they play at the same level.
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Perfect solution.

Play for a captain with a little bit of ego himself.

Seriously though I wish my captain looked at things through your glasses. We are always chasing the team in front of us and that's about all. Looking at strengths and weaknesses are great tools for the skipper. Maybe as you go through the season you can let them know how you envision the match up. Then ego won't be as big of a problem later.
 
Apa 9 ball is such a weird game sometimes. Anyone can win on a given night and is largely dependant on the rolls. You definitely do not want 6's that should be 5's on your team. You can try a few things but the reality is most players think they are better than they are.

You can keep playing them in tough matches but this will probably keep frustrating them and make them not want to play anymore. Who knows they might prove you wrong and win.

You can play them a few matches and beat them. You will never hear the end of it if you lose.

You can always find new players or you can just talk to them.

I had a 3 a few years ago that complained to the LO that he should be a 5. The LO challenged him to a match and skunked him 5-0 that was the end of that :thumbup:
 
Lonestar_jim said:
Perfect solution.

Play for a captain with a little bit of ego himself.

Seriously though I wish my captain looked at things through your glasses. We are always chasing the team in front of us and that's about all. Looking at strengths and weaknesses are great tools for the skipper. Maybe as you go through the season you can let them know how you envision the match up. Then ego won't be as big of a problem later.
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I have not seen you post in a while. Wondered about you a few times. I will never forget our pm's ...you floored me..

I have never claimed to be the brightest bulb in the room but let mw share this with you.

I used to play Napa...wish it was still here. We played laggers choice where the winner of the lag decides what game fo play...8...9. 10 ball.ot of strategy in involved in choosing
Based on handicaps

Once when winning the lag it was going to be a 5-2 race 8 ball with me going to 5
3-2 race 9 ball with me going to 2
3-3 race 10 ball.

I chose 8 ball and my captain says ...wait a minute...lets talk about this. He suggested 9 ball because my opponent had to spot me a game. I replied he has to spot me for a reason and that reason is because he is stronger than me at that game.

Mu captain replied...you gotta spot him 3 games in 8 ball. I replied ...cause I am a whole lot better at it than he is. I said I would rather co with my strongest game spotting him 3 racks than playing my weakest game only being spotted one rack.I won 5-0 and.my captain never question my game selection again lol.
 
lorider said:
I have not seen you post in a while. Wondered about you a few times. I will never forget our pm's ...you floored me..

I have never claimed to be the brightest bulb in the room but let mw share this with you.

I used to play Napa...wish it was still here. We played laggers choice where the winner of the lag decides what game fo play...8...9. 10 ball.ot of strategy in involved in choosing
Based on handicaps

Once when winning the lag it was going to be a 5-2 race 8 ball with me going to 5
3-2 race 9 ball with me going to 2
3-3 race 10 ball.

I chose 8 ball and my captain says ...wait a minute...lets talk about this. He suggested 9 ball because my opponent had to spot me a game. I replied he has to spot me for a reason and that reason is because he is stronger than me at that game.

Mu captain replied...you gotta spot him 3 games in 8 ball. I replied ...cause I am a whole lot better at it than he is. I said I would rather co with my strongest game spotting him 3 racks than playing my weakest game only being spotted one rack.I won 5-0 and.my captain never question my game selection again lol.
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A co-worker used to tell me that by the time a man is 40 he should no what ails him and how to treat the problem.

And know his strengths too I see. Nice story.
 
I feel what you did is right. Problem with my team is im not the captain. Im a 5, should probable be a 6 though. My captain is a 5 but i feel should be a 4. He always puts me up against the 6 & 7's in the league which i normally win. But then he tries to do the same with himself & gets murdered most of the time.

We only play 8 ball btw. We have a 7 on our team which i feel is the best player in the league, however at times he plays way too many safties & often looses because of it. But no one wants to really listen to me because im the youngest & not the captain, although ive been around more gambling & action than the whole league combined. Luckily for me its just a night out for fun & we are still pretty competitive.
 
gregnice37 said:
I feel what you did is right. Problem with my team is im not the captain. Im a 5, should probable be a 6 though. My captain is a 5 but i feel should be a 4. He always puts me up against the 6 & 7's in the league which i normally win. But then he tries to do the same with himself & gets murdered most of the time.

We only play 8 ball btw. We have a 7 on our team which i feel is the best player in the league, however at times he plays way too many safties & often looses because of it. But no one wants to really listen to me because im the youngest & not the captain, although ive been around more gambling & action than the whole league combined. Luckily for me its just a night out for fun & we are still pretty competitive.[/
I

If you are not happy how things are foing you could always start your own team. That's what I did. 3 to be exact lol

Some advice though.

Dont take it too serious all the time. The only time to be serious is..play offs...tri cups ..etc.

Learn your players strengths and weaknesses.learn what type of player they have problems playing and what type of player they have no problem with. Learn toir opponents also. example....if I have a player that is not very good at kicking or tries to run out when its not feasible I will not match him up against a player who is known to play a lot of safes

Never ask any one to sand bag. If have a player that I feel may possibly vo up I match him up where I know he will lose a few.

The last session before ltc's is when you get serious. I never call time outs all year ..until the last session. This is when you work with players to show them their weaknesses and hopefully get them in form for ltc's

Now some may take what I just said as sand bagging but its not.....it's handicap management..

Look at it this way.. Countless people on here say apa is just a fun night out league and I treat it that way most of the year. Come the end of the year you are playing for a trip to Vegas. To me its just like countless people on here saying how they play when they are playing for money. Example.....2 friends always play for beers ...its just a lil some thing to make the game interesting. Neither is playing all out but neither is sandbagging. Just having fun playing and beers are just a way to keep score. Now they decide fo play foe 20.00 . You bet your ass they both pick it up a little

The same way with league. You are now playing for some thing at the end of the year and consequently you get more serious

That my friend is what leads a whole lot of people complaining about sand bagging.

To clarify...i never lose on purpose....never run up innings and have never asked any of my players to do either.

What I wont do is treat ever match all year long like its the world series ...until its time to.

I aint staying up late 4 nights a week playing 10-15 safes a match in order to win when I have fo get up in the morning and work in the hot ass sun all day. Now when it's ltc time its worth it.
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lorider, another way to look at it, and only you can tell if it really applies or not.....

Your ego was a little bruised by the two cocky guys, and you set them up to knocked down a peg or two. Because your ego was bruised a little, you cost the TEAM two matches that should have been wins. You put your ego ahead of what the team needed. And you are the captain....
 
It seems as if you take the job of being captain seriously. I think that's a good thing. I too am an APA captain. We talk things over to try to get it right on any given night. Doesn't always work. But it's not just a feeling we're talking about

One of the things I do is keep stats on all my players. I take a pic on my phone of the score sheet at the end of the night. All the data is transferred to a database where I currently have about 1000 matches entered.

Who they played, s/l of opponent, innings, defensive shots, balls made ( in 9 ball), total innings and innings in games the won (8 ball) all entered. Basically anything on the sheet gets entered and spit out as useful data.

The data provides a dispassionate view of a players ability. It's not about ego. If player A is a 5 and has a 70% success rate against other 5's and under but has only a 10% success rate against 6's and above its there in black and white.

Of course before a match I check my players history against theirs. Sometimes numbers don't stack up against reality. Player A may own Player B or just the opposite. It's all there to be looked at. Good luck but keep stats to manage well and to refute egotistical people if the need arises.

For the record I have great teammates. We rarely disagree on game strategy and we support each other during our matches. Good luck and have some fun.
 
lorider said:
gregnice37 said:
I feel what you did is right. Problem with my team is im not the captain. Im a 5, should probable be a 6 though. My captain is a 5 but i feel should be a 4. He always puts me up against the 6 & 7's in the league which i normally win. But then he tries to do the same with himself & gets murdered most of the time.

We only play 8 ball btw. We have a 7 on our team which i feel is the best player in the league, however at times he plays way too many safties & often looses because of it. But no one wants to really listen to me because im the youngest & not the captain, although ive been around more gambling & action than the whole league combined. Luckily for me its just a night out for fun & we are still pretty competitive.[/
I

If you are not happy how things are foing you could always start your own team. That's what I did. 3 to be exact lol

Some advice though.

Dont take it too serious all the time. The only time to be serious is..play offs...tri cups ..etc.

Learn your players strengths and weaknesses.learn what type of player they have problems playing and what type of player they have no problem with. Learn toir opponents also. example....if I have a player that is not very good at kicking or tries to run out when its not feasible I will not match him up against a player who is known to play a lot of safes

Never ask any one to sand bag. If have a player that I feel may possibly vo up I match him up where I know he will lose a few.

The last session before ltc's is when you get serious. I never call time outs all year ..until the last session. This is when you work with players to show them their weaknesses and hopefully get them in form for ltc's

Now some may take what I just said as sand bagging but its not.....it's handicap management..

Look at it this way.. Countless people on here say apa is just a fun night out league and I treat it that way most of the year. Come the end of the year you are playing for a trip to Vegas. To me its just like countless people on here saying how they play when they are playing for money. Example.....2 friends always play for beers ...its just a lil some thing to make the game interesting. Neither is playing all out but neither is sandbagging. Just having fun playing and beers are just a way to keep score. Now they decide fo play foe 20.00 . You bet your ass they both pick it up a little

The same way with league. You are now playing for some thing at the end of the year and consequently you get more serious

That my friend is what leads a whole lot of people complaining about sand bagging.

To clarify...i never lose on purpose....never run up innings and have never asked any of my players to do either.

What I wont do is treat ever match all year long like its the world series ...until its time to.

I aint staying up late 4 nights a week playing 10-15 safes a match in order to win when I have fo get up in the morning and work in the hot ass sun all day. Now when it's ltc time its worth it.
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All good info but we dont play APA. We play UPA, and its a cash money league, payout at end of each session for top 2 or 3 teams depending. So im always trying to get the best matchups for the team im on. We still have fun though.

As far as starting my own team id like too but not enough people want to play in the UPA for some reason. They keep running for APA to TRY for the letdown in Vegas. TAP is also big in the area so we get the short end of the stick it seems since we arent that well known.
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Be the best player on your team by far. In the whole league if you can. And show calm and sportsmanship as such. This keeps egos in check.

JC
 
Neil said:
lorider, another way to look at it, and only you can tell if it really applies or not.....

Your ego was a little bruised by the two cocky guys, and you set them up to knocked down a peg or two. Because your ego was bruised a little, you cost the TEAM two matches that should have been wins. You put your ego ahead of what the team needed. And you are the captain....
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You are mostly correct but I would not go as far as saying my ego was bruised it was more like I got the attitude....you think you oughta be a 6 huh ? Well I am gonna let you get a taste of what playing a damn good 6 feels like. He once bragged he was a 6 for a while when he lived in south Carolina. I had my lo look his stats up. He was never a 6. I also got tired of his bragging about his skunk patch. It came to a head one night when we were playing a team with one 5 and no one else was above a 3. I played my 4 against the 5 and I overheard my guy talking about he could not wait to see I he could skunk one of the other players....all girls and none over a 3. I sat him out. Afterwards he asked why I did not play him. I told him i did not want him skunking a 2 and possibly going up. He said he wanted more skunk patches . I replied o would give him 3 of them of he wanted them that bad.he said ....you have 3 ? I said yea. He asked who I beat. I said a 4....a 5 and another 5 at nationals. He said aint no way I got one against another 5 in Vegas. I said ask the lo ..he was there.I told him I just dont go around bragging about it.

The other one is a new player to spa....his 2nd session. He started as a 4 but was raised a few weeks later when he trounced a girl who was a 2.

As you state ..being the captain its my job to get the team wins so I have been matching him up to where he has the best chance of winning leading him to a false sense of accomplishment. As a result of him being new he went up quickly and my matching him up to won led him to being handicapped which hurts the team . ..
 
JC said:
Be the best player on your team by far. In the whole league if you can. And show calm and sportsmanship as such. This keeps egos in check.

JC
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Actually I strive to do what you posted. I try to lead by example...especially when sportsmanship is concerned.

I am.pretty laid back most of the time and allow other teams leeway concerning replays and running over the 23 handicap according to our by laws. Some captains are strictly by the book and and have a win any way I can attitude ....they get what they give when they face me .
 
pogmothoin said:
It seems as if you take the job of being captain seriously. I think that's a good thing. I too am an APA captain. We talk things over to try to get it right on any given night. Doesn't always work. But it's not just a feeling we're talking about

One of the things I do is keep stats on all my players. I take a pic on my phone of the score sheet at the end of the night. All the data is transferred to a database where I currently have about 1000 matches entered.

Who they played, s/l of opponent, innings, defensive shots, balls made ( in 9 ball), total innings and innings in games the won (8 ball) all entered. Basically anything on the sheet gets entered and spit out as useful data.

The data provides a dispassionate view of a players ability. It's not about ego. If player A is a 5 and has a 70% success rate against other 5's and under but has only a 10% success rate against 6's and above its there in black and white.

Of course before a match I check my players history against theirs. Sometimes numbers don't stack up against reality. Player A may own Player B or just the opposite. It's all there to be looked at. Good luck but keep stats to manage well and to refute egotistical people if the need arises.

For the record I have great teammates. We rarely disagree on game strategy and we support each other during our matches. Good luck and have some fun.
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I thought my post was long enough so I did not post that I do the same thing you do. O keep stats on most ever thing my self.

It really comes in handy a lot of times.

Example. We are in 3 rd place in both 8 and 9 on Sunday nights. Last Sunday we faced the team that is in 1st place in both. I happen to be pretty friendly with the captain and we used to be team mates and naturally we trash talk each other teams some times.

Well I wanted to prove to him I had the better team last week. When I got to league my co captain asked me what was the shed of paper I kept looking at every time I matched up players..i showed him mu list of stats along with the opposing teams win stats for each player. He was amazed I had all that info and said he had no idea I went to that length for the team.

I told him I usually look at it before I go to league every week and keep it in my head but tonight was serious show time against the other team so I wrote it all down .

Well.we.won both with no problem .


My Thursday night team is the one this thread is about.
 
I think you have to decide what your job should be as team captain. I think first and foremost your job should be to use your expertise to help your team win, fairly and legally.

I think that rather than teach them a lesson at the expense of a team loss, I would have discussed it with them beforehand. If they really want to jump in against a better player, then fine, but let them know where you stand on the topic and that if it doesn't work out, then they should agree to trust your judgement for future match-ups.
 
A lot of players in the middle handicap systems get confused on their true ability! As a former captain I would take em on a fun road trip type tournament. A few years back we had the Lucasi/acs tour and I would hype everybody up and we pay the 40$ or whatever and watch em get killed without that spot and the possibility that the opponent may be doing some handicap management himself. Handicapped leagues are the biggest misconception of skill! It's like going to the outlet center and earning a black belt vs going to a mma gym and earning a black belt!
 
Probably the best thing for them, a little reality check, we all need one from time to time.

I think part of being captain is also learning to manage S/L's. You always want your players to play their best but too many of the wrong kind of win can be more detrimental than helpful. That's when you put up your best 5 and the other team put up their worst 2. That kind of win can lead to what I call a false S/L and unwarranted cockiness, it builds bad habits in the wrong player, then they become 6 when they really shouldn't be.

You wanna win, but you don't want to enter LTC's or NTC's with a top heavy team that shouldn't be
 
I think that it's quite likely that you did the right thing. (Actually, I'm quite sure of it, but for the objectivity sake in the discussion....) You know these players and none of us do. Yes, trying to talk to them about it is a better solution than setting the team up for likely losses, and I'm assuming that you have either done so, and/or simply know that it isn't going to work.

This is one one part of the larger issue of being a team captain. That is, the people management portion of the job. We all have ego's, and we all have feelings. Keeping everyone moving in the same direction without causing friction and issues can be a major headache. It all depends on the people on the team.

I have had enough headaches in team management that I am quite selective now about adding people. The good news is that we have very little turnover on the two teams that I'm on, and we all get along famously, so we just don't face those challenges. (OK, my 8-ball team does have a couple of players that can create a little drama, but I think we have that corralled, and fortunately some of my other players help me with keeping that contained.)

Good luck with them. I expect that you should have it better going forward, at least for a little while.
 
Celophanewrap said:
Probably the best thing for them, a little reality check, we all need one from time to time.

I think part of being captain is also learning to manage S/L's. You always want your players to play their best but too many of the wrong kind of win can be more detrimental than helpful. That's when you put up your best 5 and the other team put up their worst 2. That kind of win can lead to what I call a false S/L and unwarranted cockiness, it builds bad habits in the wrong player, then they become 6 when they really shouldn't be.

You wanna win, but you don't want to enter LTC's or NTC's with a top heavy team that shouldn't be
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You hit the nail on the head cell....exactly my point I was trying to make.

Both are overated in my opinion but in order to keep my team in the top half of the standings to qualify for play offs I have been matching them up where they win quite often. Well its went to their head so to speak and neither are as good as they think they are.

They are both fairly new to apa and just dont realize how much stronger other players at their handicap are...or even guys who are lower handicapped than they are. They just play one night a week and just know the players in their divisions. I play in 5 divisions and know almost every one in town

Perfect example is last sessions playoffs..it came down fo the Las match and we were pretty even..i threw my 5 that claims he oughta be a 6. They threw a damn good 3 and I thought ...oh shit this is gonna be close.

I tell.my guy to play smart....keep the cue ball under control and to avoid crazy shots where he nigh wind up giving bih because his opponent will make him pay for it.

He tells.me ...i got this....heck he is only a 3. Well when it was over we won but the 3 only needed 1 point. My player said.....wow ! ...that guy almost beat me ...i can't believe he is only a 3. I told him that 3 has been to Vegas more years that my guy has been playing pool.

He asked how that guy stays a 3 all these years as good as he shoots. I said he shoots like a 3 all year long but shoots like a 4 in playoffs or higher.
 
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