Todays equilizer? And a fix? Fast cloth
- Thread starter nick serdula
- Start date
I think you have to look at it this way.
Many of the individuals who are/have complained about how faster cloth has made the game easier, allowing "lesser" skilled players to compete at a level above what they should able too, are from the era when fast cloth was not so prevalent.
The skill level of players, IMHO, have gone up considerably since pre-1990's.
These complainers are nostalgic for the days when they were younger, and at the peak of there game. As the equipment, the game and the players have progressed, they struggled to keep pace. And suddenly these young upstarts, playing on faster cloth and smaller pockets, are beating them with ease.
The ego resists the reality of us aging and losing ability, and we will rationalize as to why these "annoying little snots" are getting the best of us. So the easy excuse is pointing to the evolution within the sport, whether it is cloth speed, pocket size, magic racks, or jump cues, pick your excuse.
All sports, and sports equipment evolves. Pick a sport, and chances are that billiards has evolved LESS in the past 50 years.
Adapt, quit, or get out of the way.
Many of the individuals who are/have complained about how faster cloth has made the game easier, allowing "lesser" skilled players to compete at a level above what they should able too, are from the era when fast cloth was not so prevalent.
The skill level of players, IMHO, have gone up considerably since pre-1990's.
These complainers are nostalgic for the days when they were younger, and at the peak of there game. As the equipment, the game and the players have progressed, they struggled to keep pace. And suddenly these young upstarts, playing on faster cloth and smaller pockets, are beating them with ease.
The ego resists the reality of us aging and losing ability, and we will rationalize as to why these "annoying little snots" are getting the best of us. So the easy excuse is pointing to the evolution within the sport, whether it is cloth speed, pocket size, magic racks, or jump cues, pick your excuse.
All sports, and sports equipment evolves. Pick a sport, and chances are that billiards has evolved LESS in the past 50 years.
Adapt, quit, or get out of the way.
Ditto
Thats a ditto Mr. Dodd. If anything todays cloth makes you have to be able to control cue ball speed with more precision and since the cloth is faster that precision is harder to gauge which means you really have to be tuned in in order to play.
Thats a ditto Mr. Dodd. If anything todays cloth makes you have to be able to control cue ball speed with more precision and since the cloth is faster that precision is harder to gauge which means you really have to be tuned in in order to play.
I always thought it was a little harder to play on fast cloth too. I don't really see the slow cloth disadvantage. How much power do you actually need to play a stupid game of pool?
Game of Pool!
Absolutely, I love my Pool but I try to keep it in perspective with other aspects of my life. I like it that I play well and I love One Pocket for making me have to play well but Pool is Pool.
Absolutely, I love my Pool but I try to keep it in perspective with other aspects of my life. I like it that I play well and I love One Pocket for making me have to play well but Pool is Pool.
same, gotta have a delicate touch, and good handle on speed control
more power than the girly men
Everyone has allready adapted or quit. The smug and pompous attitude in your post makes me laugh. Why do people think they are the shit, just because they have a jump cue. EVERYONE can use a jump cue, so long as they have a D- player stroke. Anyone can shoot stroke shots on fast cloth, as well, but you never need to, anyway. What is easier: punting a ball in or firing it in with pace? What do you think takes the most precision?
You, and others, seem to think that evolution allways leads to things becoming more advanced and improved etc..This is not true of evolution in biology and certainly not in pool. Evolution is about adapting to the pressures imposed by the environment. In the case of pool the environment has consisted of manufacturers with insatiable greeed and (potential but never realized) tv viewers with 2 minutes worht of attention span). Basically the game has involved to give the manufacturers a better profit margin and to attempt to please tv viewers (which didn't happen, and never will).
Lately the game is now adapting to be more about the league players. They want the game to be easier and more fun for someone who plays only once a week. Small tables, fast cloths (but not too fast for them to handle) etc. etc.. Even the big tournaments have become all about the league players now. Do you HONESTLY believe that this will advance the game? Handicaps and small tables? Will the future US Open champion be someone who plays 2 hours once a week but gets a 9 game handicap against SVB on a 6 foot table, playing 7 ball?
If you can draw your ball on heavy cloth, you can do it on fast cloth. Doubly so. In fact, I'll say that the toughest tables to play on are the lightening fast (where very little can actually be done when you get angle, like brand new 760) and very slow where the same is true but for different reasons. Most tournaments actually do not use 760, because it's so tough to play on when it's brand new (first days of play). When I talk about "fast cloth" being easier I actually mean what the tournaments usually use (860, 860 HR). The easiest cloths to play on are the ones that are becoming popular right now (860 HR for instance). Don't make this out to be some kind of whine from people who always lose. It's always good to occationally try to see the bigger picture, instead of narrowly focusing on your own abilities and problems all the time. Table size is trending downwards and so is the game itself. If this goes any further, pool will no longer have any chance what so ever of being considered a sport, like snooker. Instead it will only be a drunken pastime.
Just for illustration, watch how Alex makes 6 balls on a 9 ball break, but fails to get out because the cloth and table are ridiculously fast (I believe it was a Championship cloth). This is not the kind of cloth that makes the game easier, too bad the whole match is not available, it was insane:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDhrDhliX3k
Last edited:
That was an anomaly, not typical.
Alex is one of my favorite players, but he played that too close the object ball, he could have easily used follow; it's NOT the cloths fault.
I wonder if Alex prefers slow cloth?
You have your OPINION that fast cloth makes the game easier, I just don't see it.
If it makes the game so much easier, then those who were good on slow cloth, should be great on the fast stuff, instead they just complain on the forums.
My OPINION is that it adds more depth and difficultly to the game.
Last edited:
Great, you are "adapting to the changes". Good for you. Everyone is, in their own way. That doesn't mean you have to like it, or bend over and "take it". I don't want slower cloth to give me an advantage. In fact I don't think it would benefit me much at all. For one thing, I'd have to seriously work on my break, especially if there was no magic rack. I'm not old (relative to most of this forum, anyway), so I never experienced the era of mostly slow cloth. My knowledge of them comes through sporadic play on tables that have them.
This forum is about peoples opinions. That means that someone will not be happy with the status quo. If you go to a tournament, you are agreeing to play on whatever shitty or great tables they put you on. Doesn't mean you can't complain about it later, does it? Even if you don't like certain conditions, it doesn't mean you are a terrible player. I'm probably better on fast cloth than I am on slower cloth, as a matter of fact. But I realize that I enjoy the challenge posed by the slow cloth, and I know for a fact that a lot of people simply wouldn't be able to play on it, while others would do well. The same thing is not true of the opposite state of affairs. I don't think pool should cater to weak strokes or players. It should be tough. If you like pool, you will enjoy it even if it is tougher. Children and women should not be able to compete in the world championship, not ball pokers either unless they are able to produce the kind of stroke a grown man could, IMO. I think pool should be about the big strokes, not the short pokes. That is my opinion. This is a forum for opinions, so I'm voicing it. If that makes me a bad player or overall bad person, then so be it.
The old school players do play well on fast cloth. A true player can play on anything, even teflon cloth. But so what, does that mean they must enjoy anything equally much?
About the Alex match, the cloth was INSANELY fast. Both players struggled and eventually played a very simplified center ball game, if I remember correctly. But that video was just a sidenote anyway. I wouldn't have played the shot the way Alex did, either, but he's a pro and I'm not. It think the english didn't take off the rails (often the case with new cloth) and the cueball just slid away from him, which is why he came so close to the ball. Hard to bend the tangent angle on cloth this slick. On a more normal cloth, the angle off the cushion would have been wider, IMO.
You want to appeal to people being more "constructive". I don't know how I could actually be more constructive on this forum? I started some threads in the straight pool forum with my own experiences, in an attempt to help beginners, with no gain to myself. Especially since I'm completely anonymous. But occationally I'm going to complain about things, as well, especially when they are hurting the game I love. I outlined why I don't think fast cloth is good, and what changes would make it better. Unless I decided to start my own tournament, that's about all I could do. Not everyone has 100 000 dollars to blow on tournaments, you know. Does that mean we have to shut up?
Last edited:
I would love to know how many of the people that don't think that slow cloth needs a better more powerful stroke have played on it. Probably most have never played on slow cloth in their young lives. 14.1 is not what we're talking about here...rotation games are. The harder you need to stroke a ball, the more chance you miss or get bad position. If you're not at least a "B" player, you won't know the difference anyway. Johnnyt
So you wouldn't know the difference, then....
I think what most fail to realize is that the folks on here that are "complaining, whining and remembering times in the past" with slow cloth....
Could give many on here an ass whooping that we would remember for quite a while. Why do many of you marginalize them ?
Now I realize they have regularly thrown women under the bus. Hey that's how it was in the way back machine, lol.
Seriously Nick Serdula, the reason why the ladies get to play on T.V. is not because they can't compete on slow cloth. It is because they bring more dignity to the televised game and are better looking than men.
Could give many on here an ass whooping that we would remember for quite a while. Why do many of you marginalize them ?
Now I realize they have regularly thrown women under the bus. Hey that's how it was in the way back machine, lol.
Seriously Nick Serdula, the reason why the ladies get to play on T.V. is not because they can't compete on slow cloth. It is because they bring more dignity to the televised game and are better looking than men.
I started playing when the best cloth for pool out there was Stevens cloth, and then later there was Mali. I had to work really hard to develop a stroke to send the cue ball multiple rails for position, and yes, when faster cloth came along, I was frustrated watching players with no stroke running out and doing well in tournaments. I knew they'd fall apart if they had to let their stroke out, but they never had to with the new faster cloths. They soft rolled their way to wins.
However, for the players remembering the 'good old days' with slow cloth, there were some real pitfalls. For example:
New slow cloth didn't play like fast cloth when it was new. It was like playing on an ice skating rink. The balls were sliding and skidding all over the table. The cue ball would slide at least a foot coming off a rail. You could see it spinning but nothing was happening.
After a few matches, the new cloth would then start to get covered in pills --- lint fragments that you had to constantly pick off for the first several days. This was a real pain in a tournament situation. They used to bring in irons and literally iron the cloths between matches to try to keep them from shedding and from sliding. You never knew what you would get from one table to the next, depending on when that particular table was ironed.
And you could forget about it if some unknowing person opened a door for some 'fresh air' --- and let outside humid air into the room. You wanted to kill that person.
By the third day of a tournament with constant play, the cloths would really start to slow down. Only the strong survived when that happened.
However, for the players remembering the 'good old days' with slow cloth, there were some real pitfalls. For example:
New slow cloth didn't play like fast cloth when it was new. It was like playing on an ice skating rink. The balls were sliding and skidding all over the table. The cue ball would slide at least a foot coming off a rail. You could see it spinning but nothing was happening.
After a few matches, the new cloth would then start to get covered in pills --- lint fragments that you had to constantly pick off for the first several days. This was a real pain in a tournament situation. They used to bring in irons and literally iron the cloths between matches to try to keep them from shedding and from sliding. You never knew what you would get from one table to the next, depending on when that particular table was ironed.
And you could forget about it if some unknowing person opened a door for some 'fresh air' --- and let outside humid air into the room. You wanted to kill that person.
By the third day of a tournament with constant play, the cloths would really start to slow down. Only the strong survived when that happened.
thank you amen i rest my case. Jump in old pros on the cloth opinion!
Lol. Us Canadian kids grow up playing snooker. So...I probably know a little more than the "old timers" that have only played pool, regarding playing on slow cloth. Mind you, I still play snooker. And pool. And 3C. So, I'm used to playing on three different speeds of cloth.
Posts like this make me realize why pool will go nowhere. It's a game full of whiners. Nostalgic whiners. But whiners, nonetheless. There is no other game I know of that hates progress and change. You never hear golfers complain about how fast the greens are at the US Open. Or when they change the rules on clubs. They just adapt. You don't hear soccer players complain that the grass on the away field is a different grass, or different length than their home field. Hockey players don't complain when the ice is softer (yes, ice can have varying consistencies) at a visiting rink. They just play the game.
Work on your game. The game has changed. I loved the slower cloth, because I used to love shooting draw shots. It grabbed better than it does on Simonis 860. I then went to 760. Changed my game to suit faster cloth. A lot more stun shots, and using less english on the cueball. Good players will adapt. If you're whining about how much better things were 30 years ago, I suggest you find a support group, and play pool together. It will most likely be a game of one pocket...because you're 70+. The game changes. Deal with it. Get better, or quit. But the reason that someone is beating you isn't the cloth. They still had to run balls off the table. They just did a better job of it than you did. And if you have the nerve to say "I'd have beat you on slower cloth", you need to grow as a human being.
Work on your game. The game has changed. I loved the slower cloth, because I used to love shooting draw shots. It grabbed better than it does on Simonis 860. I then went to 760. Changed my game to suit faster cloth. A lot more stun shots, and using less english on the cueball. Good players will adapt. If you're whining about how much better things were 30 years ago, I suggest you find a support group, and play pool together. It will most likely be a game of one pocket...because you're 70+. The game changes. Deal with it. Get better, or quit. But the reason that someone is beating you isn't the cloth. They still had to run balls off the table. They just did a better job of it than you did. And if you have the nerve to say "I'd have beat you on slower cloth", you need to grow as a human being.
When I was a teen growing up, the conventional wisdom, even from the old timers, was that the fast "tournament" cloth was much harder to play on because it was tough to hang on to the cue ball. I'm surprised to hear just the opposite now, 30 years later.
Losing is the justification for many excuses.