Issues Blowing Up At The Tornado Open

The IPT was Mike Sigel and KT cooking up a way to give Mike a retirement fund,and KT a huge tax shelter/write off. Mission accomplished. The only problem was that Efren beat Mike in the finals...

...retirement fund? Nah, isn't the GPPA his retirement fund or do you think he just sold his name? GPPA "Where ANYONE can win". Millennials take note of your new pool league. Sorry if I offended any Millennials that actually play and practice pool it was directed at those that over-use the word "fair".

...digress...

We probably will never know the truth about the Texas Twister Two-step, but with so many snake oil peddlers, con-men, liars, cheats, and hustlers in the pool industry anyone going down the route of promoting an event needs to be completely transparent or they will get lumped in with criminals like KT to others that are "shady" at best.

Character - so many have so little.
 
Interesting read, Fran. If I followed things correctly in your description of the events, then you are pretty much to blame for the demise of "professional pool" with ESPN. Well done.

If you need me to explain it to you, I will. But anyone with two shreds of business acumen will see where you designed a system that was sure to fail.

Seriously? LOL you've posted disparaging comments about me before but this one is so ridiculous, it's funny.
 
Maybe Grady can remember better;

A quote from Bet High and Kiss Low (page 92): "Richie Florence, I thought, had some of the best tournaments. His final event in the mid 80's in Vegas had problems. Bill Cayton of "Big Fights" had 8 players under contract. Rempe, Hopkins, Martin, Butera, Mizerak, I think and 3 others. Part of that agreement specified that none of the eight players could play in any televised event. Despite the fact that not one of the eight players made the TV part of Richie's tournament, Big Fights sued and stopped this great event from being shown. It ruined Florence. A real shame, if you ask me. I had my differences with Richie over the years but underneath everything he loved the sport and the players. He suffered a stoke in 1992 and had to slow down quite a bit."

RBL

Grady had it wrong. Cayton never sued Florence. He probably threatened to sue. The players turned on Cayton and played in Florence's event and Cayton eventually relented and walked away in disgust.

That was the early stages of possibilities of great things to come. It was ended before it began. Cayton was the equivalent of Barry Hearn. You need clout to get networks to pay for coverage. Florence got angry because he saw the door closing on himself and his events. But the truth was that Cayton's events showed much more promise for our future.
 
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Seriously? LOL you've posted disparaging comments about me before but this one is so ridiculous, it's funny.

No. It's actually pretty accurate. You just think like a pool player. Not a business owner.

You say you negotiated a deal with ESPN for the WPBA. And that your associate had contracts with several players. And that he had secured monies for the television rights to the broadcast of those games. I can only assume, given your description of the events, and the fact that he didn't "allow" his players to play in Ritchie's event, that he was trying to influence who was and wasn't viewed on television. He also tried to block players from playing in a different televised event, by the use of "contracts".

That does NOTHING for the state of pool, and everything for the promoter, and the stable of players in his "agency". He was, in effect, acting as an agent for his contracted players to secure them money from ESPN.

So, I guess this means that only certain events were able to be shown on TV...and certain players would see any form of compensation.

Do I really need to go any further to show you how you tried to actually "corner the market" on televised pool?

The NBA doesn't have contracts with players. They just provide the league for the players to play in. The owners of the franchises pay the league for their franchise. The owners then pay their employees. They get their revenues from TV licensing, gate sales, and anything they sell for their franchise brand. This is a standard model of a professional sport. You have a regulating body - the "league". The league negotiates TV rights. They take their share, and pass some of the proceeds to the teams involved. The teams then use that money for operations. The players and their agents negotiate with the owners and management. They don't negotiate with the NBA. The team owns the rights to the player as long as they have a contract with them.

In your example, you have a gentleman that contracted several players, and got them some TV time on ESPN. I'm assuming the money from ESPN went into his pocket, and he then passed on prize money and contract monies onto his players. In this example, you have an agent dictating which players will and will not receive any money from professional pool. In effect, you created an invitational tour. No aspiring pro could get into this tour, unless they signed a contract. And if they signed that contract, they wouldn't be allowed to play in any other events.

If you can't see how this prevented ALL players from making a living from "professional pool", and created a segmented "pro tour", you need new glasses.

If he had have negotiated a deal for televising the events, without having contracts with the players whose services he was selling to the network, then it would be above board. But the fact that he had the stable of the pros that would be televised, and that he alone had the legal means to control who could and couldn't attend which events is as crooked as the cue in the W.C. Fields picture.
 
LOL. You have some "interesting" perspectives.....

"You need to create a great show worth watching". Ok...I'll bite. Care to enlighten me how to INCREASE your FAN BASE? Hint....I've watched Olympic highdiving. It's very athletic. And I'm amazed by what they do. Do you think I'm tuning in for the next world diving championships? Um, NO. Do you know who watches high diving? High divers. Guess who watches pool on TV? Yep....it's a leap.....pool players. So, how do you increase your fan base for pool? Create more pool players. I know...radical concept. It's why MLB is popular. As is football. And soccer. You have kids every year joining little leagues. And they start liking the sport that they play. And that translates into a kid that starts watching baseball on TV. Or he/she watches the game because their mom/dad watch the game.

That doesn't happen with pool. I've watched pool with my kids around. They think it's boring. Now, Sunday morning Moto GP? They're all over it. Because motorcycles are cool. Are you picking up what I'm putting down? You could offer the world's BEST production of a pool event....and you will capture precisely 0% of the general population. Pool players watch pool. Pool players attend the events. So when your general audience is telling you that you've produced an inferior event, perhaps you should listen. I really don't hear much complaining about Zuglan's Joss tour. And he's been doing it for a long time. Perhaps that's a guy that people should take some lessons from.

You want to build pool up? Start with the kids, and the leagues. That will increase your fan base. And would actually create interest in seeing higher level pool. Unfortunately, 90% of this board pisses on the leagues, and praises the pros. The leagues are the only thing keeping pool alive in North America. If pool relied on tournaments, it would die a quick death.

I get what you are saying about building a grass roots base for pool to work. There is none though. Very few new players that take the game seriously. Rooms closing all over. If one in 5 league players could name 3 pros I'd be shocked. You have league barbox events along pro events and they don't even watch them live for free.

The game is going to remain a fringe sport. We just need to forget about televised pool. It's not going to happen.
 
Maybe j should not post my opinion since I am one of those kick ass league players that people on here love to denigrate when my opinion does not mirror theirs.

But what the heck...i am.gonna give my opinion anyway.

Having read both posts by Tony it seems to me his first post was typed in the heat of the moment. After speaking to Vivian he later deleted that post and made a second post not quite so negative..


People do it all the time so I dont see why you are brow beating Tony and others for recanting some of their remarks when their tempera have cooled off a little.

I have seen a few references about players being treated rudely yet no one has given examples of how they were treated. I am curious at to why those remarks were made.

Here you go:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=5683461#post5683461
 
Agree and disagree.

There is training available, business classes. Not many promoters in pool have business experience or a college degree that I have meet. The ones I have do a great job. (Regional level) Cici comes to mind.

Promoting is an attempt to turn a profit. Treat it as a business model and plan.

On the job training is never fun.



Why don't these "sanctioning bodies" have some type of promoter program to guide promoters?



There is no school on managing pool tournaments.





Post it up
 
well, yeah ............. but Mike beat Loree Jon in the IPT World 8-Ball Championship :D

And Mike won against the largest and best field, its inspiring to know Loree Jon made it to the finals in that field.

There hasn't been an event with a field that strong since then.
 
And Mike won against the largest and best field, its inspiring to know Loree Jon made it to the finals in that field.

There hasn't been an event with a field that strong since then.

LOLOLOLOLOL.....

It was an INVITATIONAL "World championship". No one had to beat anyone to make the finals......it was a Mike vs LJJ matchup. Both received money.

Feel free to look it up. Between drinks.
 
LOLOLOLOLOL.....

It was an INVITATIONAL "World championship". No one had to beat anyone to make the finals......it was a Mike vs LJJ matchup. Both received money.

Feel free to look it up. Between drinks.

:thumbup:

one of the biggest money matches ever, even more than TAR could afford.

Maybe even the biggest publicized money match.
 
:thumbup:

one of the biggest money matches ever, even more than TAR could afford.

Maybe even the biggest publicized money match.

Wrong again. Efren vs Mike at the King of the Hill the following year. Efren won $200k.

Keep going. This is entertaining.
 
Agree and disagree.

There is training available, business classes. Not many promoters in pool have business experience or a college degree that I have meet. The ones I have do a great job. (Regional level) Cici comes to mind.

Promoting is an attempt to turn a profit. Treat it as a business model and plan







Post it up

Really which regional tour did she start ,

1
 
Wrong again. Efren vs Mike at the King of the Hill the following year. Efren won $200k.

Keep going. This is entertaining.

I didn't know Kevin Trudeau paid so much money to pro pool players for single events.

You must be his biggest fan, to know all that stuff.

What about the Thorsten winnings, what was that for?

Because I hear Vivian has big payouts for female players.

She must be the next big promoter
 
That does look really nice...but as withoutstroke said: tough to play like that.

The ambient noise must be brutal, no individual lighting or variance of lighting between tables and the rest of the venue.

It's a tuff gig, for all involved.

Except us!!

I think that good ambiance is very important to have in a pool tournament.
 
She ran the tiger tour for some time. Have. Not sure if she started it.


Post it up

Nope it was Planet Pool which was started by Danny Green. Nick Prinsloo and Mike Ricciardella brought it up to its peak Cicci and Andy Lincoln had some involvement , Nick and Mike sold out Cicci took it over but it wilted fast Jose Burgess took it over but not many events came after that , since he had the Mezz tourn


1
 
I wasn't going to post anything but it got to the point where I felt I was done wrong.

First I signed up for the 10 ball 3 weeks ago...because of work I couldn't make it...I tried to get my money back but like it says on the website...no refunds...which I understood and didn't make a fuss because rules are rules.

Then I tried to get someone to play in my place, just change the name and she allowed it but then change her mind a couple of hours later...which was disheartening and I was very disappointed but I again understood it was her call and didn't make a fuss or start threads...nothing ( still thought this was a bit of a dick move since this has the best players in the world and who am I going to bring in to play...maybe Willie Mosconi back from the dead, Idk) and the touney was not full, but whatever.

What got me and why I'm posting now, it is because i sent an email to her before she did the draw that I was still trying to make it and that I didn't see my name on the list. The brackets were up and i wasn't there...sent another email and she responded with "i took you off because you told me you weren't coming" she said she didn't see my email...uhmmm we sent 6 emails back and forth and that's the one you didn't see.

So now I'm pissed I was going to be able to make it last minute but now I wasn't in the tournament...and my $550 gone...oh well you live and you learn...this is why Pool is the way it is...

People are going to say there is 2 sides to every story and I understand that...if someone from her camp comes here to try and say I'm a liar I got all the emails, dates and witnesses to prove otherwise.

Again I wasn't going to say anything I even told her that on an email but that was before she took my name off and acted like I didn't even exist, she change the outcome of the tournament by taking my name off, even if I didn't make it someone would have gotten lucky and gotten a free round. I will not say anymore on the subject...this was ridiculous.



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That sounds really messed up. They basically stole $550 from you (in my opinion). If she was not going to give you up until the time that the tournament started (and she should have received the email, about you stating that you were going to try to get there on time), then she should have given you a full refund for taking your name off of the list. That just sounds really messed up to me. Very sorry about your loss of money, and not being able to play. I would try my best to sue her. That just does not seem right.
 
How long before the draw did you email her to say you could make it? Did she respond to other emails to you in that time?

If she got the email why wouldn't she put you in? Don't see what motive she would have


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I imagine that she has a cell phone, and really should have got a notification from the player that he was going to try to make it. If she had no intention of giving the player a refund, then she could have at least left his name on the list, and the draw, and at least given him enough time to make it before he got disqualified (due to a no show). Since she did not receive his email, or missed it, then she could at least be nice enough to refund the players money. This just does not seem fair to the player. He showed up on time, sent her an email in advance, paid the $550 in advance, and he did not get to play or get a refund. Sounds really messed up to me.
 
If I pay and I can't get my money back I deserve to be put on the list, unless you have a full event which she didn't...idk what else to tell you. There is not too many more details than that. She made an executive decision and it was the wrong decision.

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Yeah, I agree. It sounds really messed up. $550 is a lot of money (in my eyes anyways).
 
I didn't know Kevin Trudeau paid so much money to pro pool players for single events.

You must be his biggest fan, to know all that stuff.

What about the Thorsten winnings, what was that for?

Because I hear Vivian has big payouts for female players.

She must be the next big promoter

Or I just know about this thing called Wikipedia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Pool_Tour

Took all of a few minutes to look stuff up. I like knowing facts before I post, instead of just pulling stuff out of my ass.

The first two IPT events were pretty memorable. Seemed like a massive cash grab for Sigel.
 
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