Issues Blowing Up At The Tornado Open

Or I just know about this thing called Wikipedia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Pool_Tour

Took all of a few minutes to look stuff up. I like knowing facts before I post, instead of just pulling stuff out of my ass.

The first two IPT events were pretty memorable. Seemed like a massive cash grab for Sigel.

I can't recall an event ever giving so much money to a single pool pro.

Sounds like this thread is against giving money to pool pros because the lighting in the arena was off.

Or I read that the field didn't max out, so the prizes had to adjust.

A lot of shady behavior.
 
No. It's actually pretty accurate. You just think like a pool player. Not a business owner.

You say you negotiated a deal with ESPN for the WPBA. And that your associate had contracts with several players. And that he had secured monies for the television rights to the broadcast of those games. I can only assume, given your description of the events, and the fact that he didn't "allow" his players to play in Ritchie's event, that he was trying to influence who was and wasn't viewed on television. He also tried to block players from playing in a different televised event, by the use of "contracts".

That does NOTHING for the state of pool, and everything for the promoter, and the stable of players in his "agency". He was, in effect, acting as an agent for his contracted players to secure them money from ESPN.

So, I guess this means that only certain events were able to be shown on TV...and certain players would see any form of compensation.

Do I really need to go any further to show you how you tried to actually "corner the market" on televised pool?

The NBA doesn't have contracts with players. They just provide the league for the players to play in. The owners of the franchises pay the league for their franchise. The owners then pay their employees. They get their revenues from TV licensing, gate sales, and anything they sell for their franchise brand. This is a standard model of a professional sport. You have a regulating body - the "league". The league negotiates TV rights. They take their share, and pass some of the proceeds to the teams involved. The teams then use that money for operations. The players and their agents negotiate with the owners and management. They don't negotiate with the NBA. The team owns the rights to the player as long as they have a contract with them.

In your example, you have a gentleman that contracted several players, and got them some TV time on ESPN. I'm assuming the money from ESPN went into his pocket, and he then passed on prize money and contract monies onto his players. In this example, you have an agent dictating which players will and will not receive any money from professional pool. In effect, you created an invitational tour. No aspiring pro could get into this tour, unless they signed a contract. And if they signed that contract, they wouldn't be allowed to play in any other events.

If you can't see how this prevented ALL players from making a living from "professional pool", and created a segmented "pro tour", you need new glasses.

If he had have negotiated a deal for televising the events, without having contracts with the players whose services he was selling to the network, then it would be above board. But the fact that he had the stable of the pros that would be televised, and that he alone had the legal means to control who could and couldn't attend which events is as crooked as the cue in the W.C. Fields picture.

You're assumptions are 100 percent wrong. I have a BA in accounting and audited more businesses over a few decades than you even knew existed. (No, I didn't work for the IRS.) I was actually there, as you weren't, and I know the truth, so I have no problems saying how ridiculous and illogical your uninformed comments are.
 
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You're assumptions are 100 percent wrong. I have a BA in accounting and audited more businesses over a few decades than you even knew existed. (No, I didn't work for the IRS.) I was actually there, as you weren't, and I know the truth, so I have no problems saying how ridiculous and illogical your uninformed comments are.

Even when members post nonsense and demeaning remarks on this forum, Fran, it is sometimes better to not reply because this is *exactly* why they write what they write. It's not about disseminating pool-related news; rather, it's about inciting others and causing anger and/or hurt.

You don't have to prove anything to anyone. Your track record speaks for itself in the pool industry. In fact, the pool world is lucky to have you in it. :cool:
 
You're assumptions are 100 percent wrong. I have a BA in accounting and audited more businesses over a few decades than you even knew existed. (No, I didn't work for the IRS.) I was actually there, as you weren't, and I know the truth, so I have no problems saying how ridiculous and illogical your uninformed comments are.

And the next time you find an accountant that actually runs a non-accounting business, you let me know. :)
 
Absolutely!

Even when members post nonsense and demeaning remarks on this forum, Fran, it is sometimes better to not reply because this is *exactly* why they write what they write. It's not about disseminating pool-related news; rather, it's about inciting others and causing anger and/or hurt.

You don't have to prove anything to anyone. Your track record speaks for itself in the pool industry. In fact, the pool world is lucky to have you in it. :cool:

Fran,

While he (Shawn) is citing some accurate views with regards to other professional league sports,

Many do not know the history or the pitfalls or the dealings and the collusion and all that went down with ESPN, PPPA, WPBA the IPT, and a couple of other short lived acronyms.
We'll get everyone up to speed soon enough.
I hope you're doing well!
 
Even when members post nonsense and demeaning remarks on this forum, Fran, it is sometimes better to not reply because this is *exactly* why they write what they write. It's not about disseminating pool-related news; rather, it's about inciting others and causing anger and/or hurt.

You don't have to prove anything to anyone. Your track record speaks for itself in the pool industry. In fact, the pool world is lucky to have you in it. :cool:

And your claim to fame in the pool world is that you're Keith's girlfriend, right?

Let me get one thing through your and Fran's thick skulls. You have extracted money from pool. Meanwhile, there are this big pile of us that fund your industry so that you can make a "living" from our generosity. So, you'll excuse me if I laugh when people like you complain about what's wrong with pool. Your attitudes are what's wrong with pool. There is no pro pool. A few people can knock out a living. But, pool is where it is because of "the past and present" management. And it's also why a lot of us that have some money to throw around don't attend events and tournaments, and don't back the streamers. We're tired of seeing our money go up in flames.
 
Even when members post nonsense and demeaning remarks on this forum, Fran, it is sometimes better to not reply because this is *exactly* why they write what they write. It's not about disseminating pool-related news; rather, it's about inciting others and causing anger and/or hurt.

You don't have to prove anything to anyone. Your track record speaks for itself in the pool industry. In fact, the pool world is lucky to have you in it. :cool:

Thanks! And the same goes for you. The pool world is lucky to have you in it.

My MO is that I don't get into pissing wars here. I may respond a few times for the benefit of those who read and don't post, and then I move on. I don't have a fragile ego like some here do.
 
Fran,

While he (Shawn) is citing some accurate views with regards to other professional league sports,

Many do not know the history or the pitfalls or the dealings and the collusion and all that went down with ESPN, PPPA, WPBA the IPT, and a couple of other short lived acronyms.
We'll get everyone up to speed soon enough.
I hope you're doing well!

Hey! Thanks. Hope to run into you next time you're in town.
 
Even when members post nonsense and demeaning remarks on this forum, Fran, it is sometimes better to not reply because this is *exactly* why they write what they write. It's not about disseminating pool-related news; rather, it's about inciting others and causing anger and/or hurt.



You don't have to prove anything to anyone. Your track record speaks for itself in the pool industry. In fact, the pool world is lucky to have you in it. :cool:



Jam I understand where you are coming from but i believe it is the responsibility of those who know to rebut the nonsense that some posters shovel out.


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Fran,

While he (Shawn) is citing some accurate views with regards to other professional league sports,

Many do not know the history or the pitfalls or the dealings and the collusion and all that went down with ESPN, PPPA, WPBA the IPT, and a couple of other short lived acronyms.
We'll get everyone up to speed soon enough.
I hope you're doing well!

I don't need to know the particulars. Or the history. Pool has been filled with shady characters that have found almost every way to short change sponsors, backers, and supporters. This is clearly evident in the fact that promotions are still screwing over people to this day.

Integrity is defined as doing the right thing even when no one is watching. Not ONE organization, to date, has tried to do the right thing for the game of pool. They have tried to make money. Or make a sustainable pro tour. It would be like deciding you want to become a farmer, and then going out and asking everyone else to plant your crops, till your fields, sell the crops, and then just hand you the money.

Not one kid I know aspires to be a pool player. Not one. And as a parent, I wouldn't want my kids aspiring to be professional pool players. We seem to honour the hustlers, the guys that blew their bankroll rolling balls on a table, or revel in the stories of players that put the equivalent of my house up their nose, but played one hell of a pool game. I guess I'm in the minority. I like the guys like Oliver Ortmann. Or Ralf Souquet. Or Thorsten Hohmann. The guys that play tournaments. And play in straight pool leagues. Who don't gamble, and treat the game with the dignity it deserves. They don't play pool in 3XL Hustlin' t-shirts, and Air Jordans. But this board seems to be filled with people that just want to argue about who Skyler can gamble with even, or whine about how new cloth has ruined the game.

If you actually want to build a pro tour, you need to get enough people interested in pool to tune in and watch an event. That starts at the amateur level. For every player in the NHL, there are 1000 kids playing hockey. For every MLB player, there are 1000 little leaguers. Those kids play sports through their school years, and college, and if they're good enough, they become a pro.

I like pool. I, for the most part, can't stand the majority of pool players. Let me correct that statement. I find that pool seems to bring out the underlying personality in most people in an accelerated manner. When people lose at league, they usually blame the handicapping. "That guy is a sandbagger". Well, I guess you could think that. You could also think about the 2 8 balls you missed, and the 3 shots you played horrible position. But...no...let's dwell on placing the blame on something beyond your control. That's more comforting. So....let's whine about the fact that pros aren't paid as well as we think they should. Let's talk about what's wrong with the game, and tell people that they should give more money to the pro players. Or let's petition leagues like the APA to give some of their money to the pros. That'll fix pool!

I knock out a 50 hr week. I get paid a salary, and commissions. The more I sell, the more I make. And I manage to play pool at a decent level. There were legends in the 50s and 60s that actually held full time jobs, and managed to compete at a pro level. So....how about those pro players take life seriously, and go get jobs? If pool isn't paying the bills....it's time to find a new gig. Pool in North America is dying. For a good reason. It's filthy and sleazy. It's hustlers hustling hustlers. No parent I know wants their kid hanging out at the pool hall. And it isn't the smart kid in the class that's running to the pool hall after school to play a few racks. Now....before you tell me about your darling child, nephew, granddaughter, etc....yes, there are exceptions to the rules. The best players in the room are usually the ones that are in dead end, medial jobs. The league players are the people with careers, and disposable incomes. Yet these are the people that most of AZ look down upon. Those stupid "league players". You laugh at them, and mock them. And they're the people with the bankroll to fund your dream. It's like a landscaper laughing at people who hire him to mow their lawn.

Promotions and promoters do not serve the game. They serve themselves. Organizations like the WPBA, WPA, etc....are purely self serving as well. They're kind of a "union" of pool players that negotiate "fair treatment" for their employees. Yes....you do a ton for your own cause. But you do nothing for the game. The APA, BCAPL, TAP, and any other league.......do more for pool than all of the pro factions put together have ever done for pool. A league captain has a few friends over for beers, and their buddy Bob, after seeing a pool trophy, says "I used to play pretty good"....and then the conversation starts....the next week, Bob buys a cue, and joins his friend's team. Or goes out and plays with one of his buddies after work. And another pool player is in "the game". No one watches TV, sees a professional pool match, and then hops on Seyberts, buys $2k worth of cues and accessories, and hits the table to try and do what they just saw. Pool is a social experience. It's playing around a table with friends, putting some money into the pot, and chasing a trip to Vegas, watching points on a weekly basis, and cheering on your 3 as they win their first match.

I think the pros would be well served to try and partner up with the leagues. Start showing up on a weekly basis, just as a drop in. Talk with the lowly leaguers. Maybe two could show up and play some games in the same pool room...give those people something to talk about. "Hey, these two pros showed up at league the other night, and you had to see these guys play!! They even signed autographs and handed out their cards!!". "That's pretty awesome....what were their names?". "I think one was named Corey....and the other guy was Mike". Then, those guys are on YouTube the next day searching up "Corey Mike pool", and they get links to the Mosconi Cup, and will see the jump shot by Corey that parked on the rail, and then fell back to the table.

Promote the game. Promote yourself. If the pro players keep leaving the promotions and marketing up to other people that pretend they're in this for "the good of the game", they'll remain where they are.
 
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Sorry, but I was right in the middle of it. Paul Balukas and I negotiated the WPBA contract with Cayton. I know exactly what happened. Cayton signed several men and women players with promises of producing a certain number of ESPN events per year with added money from ESPN and high prize funds. I know what the terms of the contracts were and they were more than reasonable. Because Cayton was getting a substantial amount of money from ESPN for putting on events, he didn't want anyone undermining him with ESPN, which makes perfect sense.

When Florence attempted to undermine Cayton by giving away an event to ESPN for free, Cayton approached him and informed him that he had players under contract and that he wasn't going to give them permission to play in Florence's event, which again, makes perfect business sense.

Florence, however, became infuriated and managed to convince some players that they could legally break the contract because Cayton had no right to prevent the players from earning a living. Unfortunately for pool, players began to listen to Florence and refused to honor their contracts with Cayton.

Cayton could easily have taken the entire bunch, including Richie Florence to court, and win, but he decided not to bother. He was doing this as a favor to his friend Charlie Ursitti. He certainly didn't need this. You can ask Charlie. He will corroborate everything I'm saying here. Cayton walked away from everything and left us having to negotiate with ESPN having no clout whatsoever. After Richie gave away the event to ESPN for free, the precedent was set and we were stuck.

That is EXACTLY how it went down.


Nice story Fran. So much for accuracy though. Richie was putting major POOL TOURNAMENTS on ESPN before Cayton came along and tried to corner the market. The only tournaments Cayton ever put on TV were some four player exhibitions and the Legends of Pool with eight senior players. Richie was putting on REAL pool tournaments with fields of over 100 players! I said pool tournaments, not exhibitions, with real prize money. Earl won the third Caesars Tahoe event for $33,000 PLUS A $12,000 car in 1982! It was on ESPN and he played Steve Mizerak in the finals. How do I know all this? I was the TD of that event.

Cayton did the players and pool no favors for telling them not to sign the television releases for Richie's final tournament at Caesars Palace in 1984. He effectively killed Richie's deal with ESPN and the big money tournaments that went with it. The added television exposure could only help pool and the pool players as well. Cayton NEVER put on any tournaments like those, as I said before. Richie had a chance to create a major pool tour with multiple six figure events (all televised) in the 1980's and it all died that day. The Caesars Palace tournament went on anyway, with Earl winning (another 25k!). Richie paid off all the prize money (over 100K) and never did another event.

The players who sided with Cayton took the wrong side imo, effectively shooting themselves in the foot with a shotgun! Cayton never did anything for the great majority of players, only a handful (Hopkins, Mizerak, a couple of the women and the Legends getting pay checks from his events). Cayton quickly moved on to managing Mike Tyson (with Jimmy Jacobs) and gave up on pool without a care in the world for the people he hurt. If that's your hero, then good for you!

P.S. Richie was a damn good negotiator for the pool players. He actually cared about them, being one himself. His goal was a big money tour with players earning nice paychecks. I was with him when he negotiated a great sponsorship deal with Budweiser. They were putting up 25K per event plus guaranteeing so many commercials on ESPN per show. Caesars World was also throwing money (up to 25K per tourney) into the pot. Cayton was out for Bill Cayton and didn't give a damn about any pool player. Please feel free to keep your FANtasy about him going though. Oh and by the way, if you were involved in negotiating the WPBA television deal with ESPN, I wouldn't be bragging about it. How much were the production costs per event? Something like 50K, right. And the WPBA had to foot the bill. That was not the case in Richie's events!
 
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Nice story Fran. So much for accuracy though. Richie was putting POOL TOURNAMENTS on ESPN before Cayton came along and tried to corner the market. The only tournaments he ever put on TV were some four player exhibitions and the Legends of Pool with eight senior players. Richie was putting on REAL pool tournaments with fields of over 100 players! I said pool tournaments, not exhibitions, with real prize money. Earl won the third Caesars Tahoe event for $33,000 PLUS A $12,000 car in 1982! It was on ESPN and he played Steve Mizerak in the finals. How do I know all this? I was the TD of that event.

Cayton did the players and pool no favors for telling them not to sign the television releases for Richie's final tournament at Caesars Palace in 1984. He effectively killed Richie's deal with ESPN and the big money tournaments that went with it. Cayton NEVER put on any tournaments like those, as I said before. Richie had a chance to create a major pool tour with multiple six figure events in the 1980's and it all died that day. The Caesars Palace tournament went on anyway, with Earl winning (another 25k!). Richie paid off all the prize money (over 100K) and never did another event.

The players who sided with Cayton took the wrong side imo, shooting themselves in the foot with a shotgun! Cayton never did anything for the great majority of players, only a handful (Hopkins, Mizerak, a couple of the women and the Legends getting pay checks from his events). Cayton quickly moved on to managing Mike Tyson (with Jimmy Jacobs) and gave up on pool without a care in the world for the people he hurt. If that's your hero, then good for you!

Wait a second....Jay, are you agreeing with me that creating an "invitational", segmented tour actually went AGAINST the establishment of a true professional tour???
 
Wait a second....Jay, are you agreeing with me that creating an "invitational", segmented tour actually went AGAINST the establishment of a true professional tour???

I'm telling you what happened Shawn. You can make out of it what you want. Some people like to rewrite history for whatever reason.
 
I'm telling you what happened Shawn. You can make out of it what you want. Some people like to rewrite history for whatever reason.

I saw many of those TV events don't recall one being 128 player field though ,, most I saw was 16 player fields , hand full of them a year


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Jam I understand where you are coming from but i believe it is the responsibility of those who know to rebut the nonsense that some posters shovel out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the suggestion. I just have more experience on this forum than Fran may, so I was just giving some friendly advice to her.

After all, my only claim to fame is that I'm the girlfriend of Keith. :D
 
Thanks for the suggestion. I just have more experience on this forum than Fran may, so I was just giving some friendly advice to her.

After all, my only claim to fame is that I'm the girlfriend of Keith. :D

Culture change on AZB.

JAM might be the turning point, for female dominance here.

Looks like you found someone worth helping.
 
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