Pivoting systems and their relationship to CTE

ENGLISH! said:
I understand that the different distances between the balls slightly changes the angle of the lines & where one would need to be to see them equally & simultaneously but... that is NOT the "alignment" of the shot... & what you speak of is why IT as a "system" does not work purely on an objective basis.

What we have just 'discussed' is the same shot with merely different distances between the balls... & by your explanation... would it not put the shooter in a different position & on a different line for the same shot?

Regards & Best 2 Ya,
Rick
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The visuals are a 1/2 tip pivot away from the shot line. Yes the distances change the cut angle. No, two shots with the cueball and object ball the same distance apart and the same visuals will not create different angle cuts if the pivot and all else is the same also. Yes we agree the five shots are impossible.
 
Arete said:
The visuals are a 1/2 tip pivot away from the shot line. Yes the distances change the cut angle. No, two shots with the cueball and object ball the same distance apart and the same visuals will not create different angle cuts if the pivot and all else is the same also. Yes we agree the five shots are impossible.
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Thank You for you time & consideration.

All of the Best for You & Yours,
Rick
 
Vorpal Cue said:
Yes, English! is correct in that I was only able to add a brief comment for each objection in order to keep the post manageable. I appreciate Arete's restraint in that he only inquired about one topic. I was hoping I wouldn't look at the thread and see too many objections and become overwhelmed with questions.
6. Impossible to have the same visuals for different angle shots
I interpret 6 as stating that it's only possible to get one angle out of a visual regardless of table position. That a 15 visual will output the same angle every time. I'm stating that a 15 visual will produce angles between 0 and 15* depending on the CB / OB alignment. I think that's Arete's position. Is that correct?
A statement can be hard to interpret if the wording isn't specific and a double meaning is possible. If I ask for a question to be restated in a different way it's because I see more than one way to read the statement.

@ BieberLvr: Man, I love some of the comments you make with your posts. They're witty and entertaining and you state the facts well. The balloon animal comment tickled my funny bone so much I'm still chuckling over it. Forgive me for copycatting it but I couldn't resist. But I would appreciate it if you didn't refer to anyone as haters. I'd like to keep the thread insult free. I appreciate any comments you have regarding the question and perhaps you can explain things better than me. Everyone has their own opinion on how the objections can be refuted and if you see a better answer than mine or you can explain in more detail or clearer than me I hope you post it.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I'd like to ask all posters the same thing. Please no name calling. I know there's bad blood between the different factions surrounding CTE. I'd like to get all the Hatfields and McCoys together to examine their position and see if some misunderstandings can be cleared up. Please leave your shootin' irons at home.
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I guess this is off topic from the discussion, but I'd really like to know.
I've been around pool rooms for over 60 years and I've never heard this one in any slang, anywhere.
What is a "balloon animal".....??
 
Arete said:
Yes different distances will change the alignment. However if the shooter is standing the same distance from the cueball every time, as Stan does, and the cueball and objectball are the same distance from each other, as in the five shots video, then the cut angle results will be the same for all five shots if nothing else varies.
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That isn't the way I'd use my pivoting method for the 5 ball shots. But I don't use the same technique he does to acquire a visual. If I use an A visual my hip position will only vary a set amount between visuals in that family. Stan's use of the visual adds more twist than I use. If I were to use my method, I'd use an A with into pocket pivot for the first, B on 2-4 with in pivot, and A with out pivot for 5. I use a visual that corresponds to the quarter where the contact point is located. If the CP is on the first quarter, I'd use an A. If it's on the second, a B, etc.

As I don my asbestos underwear, here's how I see his technique on the 5 ball shot. If you notice Stan's hip position on the last ball with the thinnest angle, he has a much larger twist than the first angle. That extra twist is rotating the edge of the cue ball as he sees it. The extra twist 'preloads' an angle amount according to the amount of twist. That extra amount plus the angle obtained by the 15 visual will bring him to the correct shot line. As HE sees it using HIS technique. I don't get it either. He'll explain it in his own time and I'll wait until he's ready to share. I may be way off on my take of his technique but that's how I see it.

Please, no more questions about Stan's methods. I don't understand them and I'm not qualified to explain them. My last feeble attempt will be my last.
 
GoldenFlash said:
I guess this is off topic from the discussion, but I'd really like to know.
I've been around pool rooms for over 60 years and I've never heard this one in any slang, anywhere.
What is a "balloon animal".....??
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There was a member who was trolling the thread and BieberLLvr addressed him as you would a small child and asked to know his favorite balloon animal. No response. On the next page he asked the same question politely and said to allay his fears about the question, that his favorite was a snake.

Something about that exchange just got me. Maybe you had to be there but my job as a part time clown is ruined now. :)
 
Vorpal Cue said:
That isn't the way I'd use my pivoting method for the 5 ball shots. But I don't use the same technique he does to acquire a visual. If I use an A visual my hip position will only vary a set amount between visuals in that family. Stan's use of the visual adds more twist than I use. If I were to use my method, I'd use an A with into pocket pivot for the first, B on 2-4 with in pivot, and A with out pivot for 5. I use a visual that corresponds to the quarter where the contact point is located. If the CP is on the first quarter, I'd use an A. If it's on the second, a B, etc.

As I don my asbestos underwear, here's how I see his technique on the 5 ball shot. If you notice Stan's hip position on the last ball with the thinnest angle, he has a much larger twist than the first angle. That extra twist is rotating the edge of the cue ball as he sees it. The extra twist 'preloads' an angle amount according to the amount of twist. That extra amount plus the angle obtained by the 15 visual will bring him to the correct shot line. As HE sees it using HIS technique. I don't get it either. He'll explain it in his own time and I'll wait until he's ready to share. I may be way off on my take of his technique but that's how I see it.

Please, no more questions about Stan's methods. I don't understand them and I'm not qualified to explain them. My last feeble attempt will be my last.
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For YOUR method... cutting to the left...

If the CP is between the center line & the outside 1/4 line you say that you would use an edge to A pre-pivot alignment...

& if the CP is between the outside 1/4 line & the edge line, you would then use an edge to B or center of the OB pre-pivot alignment...

Is that correct?
 
Here's how I see the different angles out of the same visual. Assume a straight in shot to the side pocket with the OB one diamond away and the CB two diamonds distance from the OB. When I shoot that shot with a 15 vis, my final table position has my hips square with the table and perpendicular to the shot line, it forms a right angle if a line is drawn through my hips. If I move the cue ball down a half diamond my hips are at a slight angle to the table at the end of the pivot but my hip line is still square with the shot line. My move down table has changed my view of the CB edge so the spot on the edge I used for the first shot to align pre pivot is in a different position. There's a 'new' edge or different 'spot' that I use to place my tip now pre pivot. That new spot is 'off' a certain number of degrees from the original one. When I use the same pivot and the new spot, it's going to affect the angle between the CB and OB and give a different angle out of the same visual.
 
ENGLISH! said:
For YOUR method... cutting to the left...

If the CP is between the center line & the outside 1/4 line you say that you would use an edge to A pre-pivot alignment...

& if the CP is between the outside 1/4 line & the edge line, you would then use an edge to B or center of the OB pre-pivot alignment...

Is that correct?
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Yes, that's correct. I find the contact point quarter on the object ball I need and use the visual that will bring the 'equal and overlapping' quarter on the cue ball to contact it. Very similar to the overlapping balls method. The difference is that I aim with a set angle with a visual and let the table position 'adjust' the shot when the pivot is made.
 
Vorpal Cue said:
Here's how I see the different angles out of the same visual. Assume a straight in shot to the side pocket with the OB one diamond away and the CB two diamonds distance from the OB. When I shoot that shot with a 15 vis, my final table position has my hips square with the table and perpendicular to the shot line, it forms a right angle if a line is drawn through my hips. If I move the cue ball down a half diamond my hips are at a slight angle to the table at the end of the pivot but my hip line is still square with the shot line. My move down table has changed my view of the CB edge so the spot on the edge I used for the first shot to align pre pivot is in a different position. There's a 'new' edge or different 'spot' that I use to place my tip now pre pivot. That new spot is 'off' a certain number of degrees from the original one. When I use the same pivot and the new spot, it's going to affect the angle between the CB and OB and give a different angle out of the same visual.
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I think you need to back up & completely explain YOUR visual for the straight in shot before moving on to a cut shot from the same visual.

Remember no one knows what YOUR method really is nor the visual that you're using. Or at least I don't & would surmise that many others will not from just reading this thread.
 
Vorpal Cue said:
Yes, that's correct. I find the contact point quarter on the object ball I need and use the visual that will bring the 'equal and overlapping' quarter on the cue ball to contact it. Very similar to the overlapping balls method. The difference is that I aim with a set angle with a visual and let the table position 'adjust' the shot when the pivot is made.
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Okay.

You say you do it differently than Stan,

What line are you looking down pre-pivot & on what line do you place the cue pre-pivot & how much is your pivot?
 
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Vorpal Cue said:
There was a member who was trolling the thread and BieberLLvr addressed him as you would a small child and asked to know his favorite balloon animal. No response. On the next page he asked the same question politely and said to allay his fears about the question, that his favorite was a snake.

Something about that exchange just got me. Maybe you had to be there but my job as a part time clown is ruined now. :)
Click to expand...

You must be a member of the dumb ass club as well
Wasn't trolling anyone here so keep the truth straight. Why would I reply to such a tard ?
 
Vorpal Cue said:
Yes, that's correct. I find the contact point quarter on the object ball I need and use the visual that will bring the 'equal and overlapping' quarter on the cue ball to contact it. Very similar to the overlapping balls method. The difference is that I aim with a set angle with a visual and let the table position 'adjust' the shot when the pivot is made.
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I've made a mistake on the question by English! and want to correct my last post.

When I've been using the term quarters I've been thinking about dividing half of the object ball into 4 sections. I'll use the term eighths instead to avoid confusion. The object ball contact point will sit in one of four sections.

I see them as the area between center OB and 1/2 the distance to C (for the left cut) as the first section or new 'eighth'. This area is for 0-15* shots and I'd use the A with pivot into pocket for those.

The next area from there to the C line is where the 15-30* shots are. I use a B with an inside pivot for that eighth.

From C to half the distance to the edge or for 30-45* shots I use an A with an outside pivot,

The next eighth is divided into two sections the innermost for 45-60* I align a true quarter ball overlap and reduce the pivot to a half tip pivot out.

The outermost section to the edge are for 60-90* I use a true 1/8 ball overlap with half tip pivot out.

When shooting the last section for 45-90*, I try to imagine a ghost ball with the correct overlap behind the OB. This give a ghost ball center line as an aid for the cue ball edge to help get the correct perspective. Shooting one line shots are tough at first because you don't have a true second reference but must imagine it.

Sorry for the confusion and I hope you see how I view the CP and it's position and how I use that information to select a visual. I'll try to be more careful with my terms.
 
Arete said:
Does your system only work on a 2x4 surface?

Am I suppose to believe that all of these pros that Stan says uses CTE, even though they are perhaps not aware of it, can't make a ball if the table was square?
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Uh, that would be a half table, so of course that would work.
 
Vorpal Cue said:
I've made a mistake on the question by English! and want to correct my last post.

When I've been using the term quarters I've been thinking about dividing half of the object ball into 4 sections. I'll use the term eighths instead to avoid confusion. The object ball contact point will sit in one of four sections.

I see them as the area between center OB and 1/2 the distance to C (for the left cut) as the first section or new 'eighth'. This area is for 0-15* shots and I'd use the A with pivot into pocket for those.

The next area from there to the C line is where the 15-30* shots are. I use a B with an inside pivot for that eighth.

From C to half the distance to the edge or for 30-45* shots I use an A with an outside pivot,

The next eighth is divided into two sections the innermost for 45-60* I align a true quarter ball overlap and reduce the pivot to a half tip pivot out.

The outermost section to the edge are for 60-90* I use a true 1/8 ball overlap with half tip pivot out.

When shooting the last section for 45-90*, I try to imagine a ghost ball with the correct overlap behind the OB. This give a ghost ball center line as an aid for the cue ball edge to help get the correct perspective. Shooting one line shots are tough at first because you don't have a true second reference but must imagine it.

Sorry for the confusion and I hope you see how I view the CP and it's position and how I use that information to select a visual. I'll try to be more careful with my terms.
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In his non TOI instructional, CJ Wiley teaches aligning the inside 1/8s of the CB to the center & then edge of the OB. That basically yields 16 angles without any tweaks or pivots

Different 'strokes' for different folks.

Your method seems rather complex & I can not visualize the entire process.

I hope you can put all of the pieces together in the explanation to give me the full picture as I do not 'have' it yet.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick
 
TheOneMrPool said:
You must be a member of the dumb ass club as well
Wasn't trolling anyone here so keep the truth straight. Why would I reply to such a tard ?
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I don't belong to that organization but I am a member of the Turtle Club. Just ask me.

Well.... You appear to be very adversarial by the comments you've made so far. You're not coming across as Mr. Sunshine for sure and nowhere close to being friendly either. I think most people would consider your behavior as rude. When you're rude to strangers you normally get rude or derisive comments back. If you were made the butt of a joke I found funny, please consider your part in the play.

I'm willing to start over and try to hit a higher level of communication with you if you're interested. If you have any questions feel free to ask.
 
Vorpal Cue said:
I don't belong to that organization but I am a member of the Turtle Club. Just ask me.

Well.... You appear to be very adversarial by the comments you've made so far. You're not coming across as Mr. Sunshine for sure and nowhere close to being friendly either. I think most people would consider your behavior as rude. When you're rude to strangers you normally get rude or derisive comments back. If you were made the butt of a joke I found funny, please consider your part in the play.

I'm willing to start over and try to hit a higher level of communication with you if you're interested. If you have any questions feel free to ask.
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I get attacked for making one post, and I'm rude. How about your buddies comments?
You think bulling peoples cool? This must be a pretty special system you guy's have.

I don't even make a bad comment to the op and you little Bi___s get butt hurt.
Get a clue before you comment back, please.;)
 
Vorpal Cue said:
I'm willing to start over and try to hit a higher level of communication with you if you're interested. If you have any questions feel free to ask.
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Vorpal - you seem like a genuine sort and I appreciate the tone you are trying to maintain in this thread. From my point of view, however, you started the fight by calling MrPool a troll. I read his posts in the other thread and whether someone is a troll or not is a subjective thing. I won't bother you with my reasoning, but I don't see him as a troll.

Maybe an apology for your loose language would put this thread back on track.

P.S. I'm not a troll, and don't even play one on TV. :rolleyes:
 
TheOneMrPool said:
I get attacked for making one post, and I'm rude. How about your buddies comments?
You think bulling peoples cool? This must be a pretty special system you guy's have.

I don't even make a bad comment to the op and you little Bi___s get butt hurt.
Get a clue before you comment back, please.;)
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I think it may be like Pop said to Roy Hobbs after he sort of jumped him...

"Look, Fella, You come at a bad time..."

Your join date & your first post being in the aiming forum caused suspicion...

I had thoughts of my own...

But I don't see where You've done anything wrong...

other than respond & that is not wrong.

Welcome to AZB... It can be a hostile place... & especially in this sub forum.

Best Wishes,
Rick
 
Dan White said:
Vorpal - you seem like a genuine sort and I appreciate the tone you are trying to maintain in this thread. From my point of view, however, you started the fight by calling MrPool a troll. I read his posts in the other thread and whether someone is a troll or not is a subjective thing. I won't bother you with my reasoning, but I don't see him as a troll.

Maybe an apology for your loose language would put this thread back on track.

P.S. I'm not a troll, and don't even play one on TV. :rolleyes:
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Hey Dan,

I don't know the history of mr p. and I haven't followed his posting history. All I know of him is what I've seen in some threads about cte. When I answered about the balloon animal question, my choice of words was quick and hasty. I didn't mention him by name if you check my post. I'll admit that my use of the term 'troll' wasn't the correct way to address him. I offer Mr. Pool my apology for my use of the term. I'll treat him the same as I would any member with no hard feelings on my part. I hope he feels the same way.

I was told the whole thing started after he posted about sub conscience aiming and got jumped on. I can see how he got mad and I can understand his viewpoint and bitterness about his treatment.

@Mr.Pool: If you want to discuss anything about pivoting in this thread I'm happy to give you my opinion. Sorry I offended you.

Edit: PM sent
 
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