Legends - Yesterday vs Today

[deanoc]

didn't Harold worst play all games at championship level

world champion straight pool,3 cushion at Hoppe speed and the best one pocket player Ronnie ever saw,
and 9 ball too


i have a different idea about viewer friendly,one pocket seems to gather more viewers


granted league players may prefer 9 ball,but who watches them anyway

 

[John Disque]

As you know, I am not a straight pool 'enthusiast'! To me, it is the most boring game on a pool table. Thats one reason why its been AWOL for 60 yrs.! I don't know why you make such an issue of Mosconi's personal character traits. The large majority of top players, (from any era) are pretty dedicated and trustworthy individuals. There will always be a few 'bad apples' in every barrel, and I know how you love to dwell on them! :yeah:

I have never played Mosconi 14.1, but I have been around several of his exhibitions, where I watched him play, for about 5-10 minutes. (or until boredom set in).. In my prime, I loved to challenge him to a one pocket, or 9ball game, just to watch him squirm! Also, his trick shot routines, were usually no more impressive than Fat's were! Two misses and it was, "Heres another one you'll like"!

As for his personality, he didn't even have one! He was an arrogant, 'wet blanket' in that department. He could care less if he 'entertained' his audience, as long as the checks from Brunswick kept coming in! You and Lou, are the only two people I've ever seen, who were overly impressed with him, or his demeanor!

PS..Even this guy (Barton) was more entertaining than Willie!..
View attachment 435890

You don't like Willie Mosconi because he made your pretender (Rudolf Wanderone) look like the loud-mouth ass-zit that he is.

 

[SJDinPHX]

You don't like Willie Mosconi because he made your pretender (Rudolf Wanderone) look like the loud-mouth ass-zit that he is.

If you would take the time to read SMAS, as I suggested, you would find Fats was not my 'pretender', or any kind of hero to me..You would see, that I am somewhat critical of him too, on certain subjects!..He was simply a very popular character, who did a lot more positive things for pool than your boring hero ever did!..I only defend him, because he does not deserve the senseless criticism you heap on him!

 

[Hungarian]

You're kind of new to the forum and I'm not sure how I feel about you.

Sometimes you make good contributions and sometimes you say outlandishly ridiculous stuff.

I'm keeping my eyes on you and will advise soon.

More to follow...

Bye for now....

You don't like Willie Mosconi because he made your pretender (Rudolf Wanderone) look like the loud-mouth ass-zit that he is.

 

[grindz]

A 'champion' is a champion IMHO...... they find what they need to do to
get there, and work tirelessly to do it better then the others. I doubt from
all the stories that either side would have to like it, but to say kicking and
banking weren't known in the past like today isn't true. Didn't Mosconii
win a world championship with a 5 rail kick to make a ball 2 diamonds
from the pocket and on the rail??! That not only takes some knowledge,
but some 'character' as well.

Today, we have access to all of the knowledge of the past, and then it was
pretty much just kept secret and school of hard knocks was the way to learn
it. The cream will always rise to the top!!

td

 

[De420MadHatter]

A 'champion' is a champion IMHO...... they find what they need to do to
get there, and work tirelessly to do it better then the others. I doubt from
all the stories that either side would have to like it, but to say kicking and
banking weren't known in the past like today isn't true. Didn't Mosconii
win a world championship with a 5 rail kick to make a ball 2 diamonds
from the pocket and on the rail??! That not only takes some knowledge,
but some 'character' as well.

Today, we have access to all of the knowledge of the past, and then it was
pretty much just kept secret and school of hard knocks was the way to learn
it. The cream will always rise to the top!!

td

This is what people keep missing!!!! As already said, talent is talent. These guys all possess a little something special. The time, the game, the equipment, it's all irrelevant!!!
The greats are relative in any era. The way they think, their hand eye coordination, it's who they are, it has nothing to do with what era it was. If Mosconi, or Efren had been born in the UK and spent their entire life playing snooker, there is no doubt they would have been world champions. If Ronnie O had been born in 30's and spent his whole life playing straight pool, Mosconi wouldn't have had as many world titles. These idiot savants, so to speak, have incredible skill and would always be at the top tier level regardless of the game, equipment, era.

 

[billinboston]

I watched Mosconi run 100 balls in the mid 70's on a new table
In MA and he did it fast... he goofed around with difficult breaks
During the run like leaving the last ball in the center of the table
And the cue ball about a foot from the end rail... he would rocket the ball in
And the cue ball would race to the pack and slam it open
Could not believe how casual he was yet fast
He opened the stack from all positions and described why he liked or
Did not like a particular break position
He just was amazing... after 100 bslls
He just said.. ok that's enough for me

 

[deanoc]

I got carried away

I would bet the farm on Mosconi at 14:1 against Efren or any other living player

also I think SJD was a pretty fair 14:1 player

 

[pt109]

A 'champion' is a champion IMHO...... they find what they need to do to
get there, and work tirelessly to do it better then the others. I doubt from
all the stories that either side would have to like it, but to say kicking and
banking weren't known in the past like today isn't true. Didn't Mosconii
win a world championship with a 5 rail kick to make a ball 2 diamonds
from the pocket and on the rail??! That not only takes some knowledge,
but some 'character' as well.

Today, we have access to all of the knowledge of the past, and then it was
pretty much just kept secret and school of hard knocks was the way to learn
it. The cream will always rise to the top!!

td

That was a set up exhibition shot with a cute story.....look it up.

 

[lfigueroa]

That was a set up exhibition shot with a cute story.....look it up.

er, I know they set up the shot to *recreate it* for the short film that features it however, if they recreated it, that would mean it actually happened during the real championship match, no?

Lou Figueroa

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

If you watch videos of Caras and Crane and then watch Willie he was on another level.

While Irving Crane is my all time favorite player, there is no arguing that point. Willie was definitely the man. And it is a huge shame good video was unavailable during his prime years.

I actually gets some chuckles when I read the "the equipment today is harder" posts. I have played billiards since I was around 8-9 years old. So remember the really old pool rooms. They were reaching their end of life, but still around when I started playing. The cloth and balls were quite brutal. I would much rather play on modern equipment. I also remember fondly the pros playing 14.1 on slow cloth at the IPT (and it making them sweat and whimper).

We also must remember, the 10 foot table is nothing new. Willie, Irving, and the rest of them played on them very frequently. Both Willie and Irving share a record 14:1 run on the 5x10 table.

 

[Ak Guy]

Who knows....

I have no way of knowing. Every game of sports has had their hero's from years ago.

Almost all of their records have been broken and fans cheer for the victor.

For some reason, the greats of pool from the past are often held up as untouchable.

I am ok with that, as there is no way to prove otherwise and it makes their fan happy!

I think "greatness" is defined in many ways. But, it should take a run of several years of top tier play in more then one discipline for a pool player to be considered great.

That said, I think Mosconi and Efren, may have been great in any era, as they both grew up playing on less then great equipment.

I would love to have seen how Mosconi would have done in todays modern Snooker era, if he had grown up playing it and dedicated his time and skills to Snooker.

I also think at this point in history their are so many who play top tier 9 Ball, it is hard to pick a clear "he is the best" 9 Ball player.

I don't think there were near as many top tier 9 Ball players at one time in the "old days".

 

[Scott Lee]

I'm sorry, but you have no clue. Playing with your chin on the cue is simply a choice, rather than a necessity to play well. You don't think they could spin the CB back then? Crazy suggestion, really. You obviously never saw Mosconi play, as he ran 100's like water. No modern player has that ability...to just step up and run 100+ at will. The old guys simply played better...period.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I'm sorry, all the old greats would lose today. Too much has changed, starting with faster cloth and tighter (or harder, more rattle!) pockets.

Then they wouldn't stand a chance against modern equipment - the spin you can apply nowadays with little effort is just amazing. Full table draws are not uncommon now, LD shafts allow amazing precision while shooting.

Lastly, the changed style is something they cannot readily participate in, good safety play, jump shots.

Also, Mosconi didn't play exact really. He didn't use contact of his chin to the cue. He almost shot from the hip.

He doesn't stand a chance against a van Boening, a van den Berg or Feijen, even a younger Ouschan. They are machines in execution. Mosconi was not.

On a crappy bar table? For sure they would play great.

Cheers,
M

 

[Bavafongoul]

I am not going to start citing the records that Mosconi set that still stand.....or Crane's or Greeenleaf's, etc.

Today's players are equally as talented having the advantage of following in the footsteps of
greats that paved the way for learning how to play the game better than your predecessors.

It might even be a push in head to head competition, except for the 14.1 matchups. It's likely
becasue nowadays 14.1 isn't anywhere near the popularity it had in the 20's, 30's, 40's 50's
& even the 60's. So modern players have great skills like the greats possessed but not the
table time playing 14.1 so I'd give an edge to the legends........and certainly to Willie.

People say Mike Trout (Angels) is the best player in baseball and if not him, maybe then Bryce.
How can you compare either of those guys to say Joe Dimaggio who played centerfield better
than anyone of his era, or Hank Aaron........or the Mick. Training today is better, travel is easier,
accommodations are upscale, diet & nutition and strength conditioning.....I mean today's baseball
players have it so much better than the greats had it that a comparison is really hard to conjure up.

Today's best players might be better than the greats were but we'll never find out. However, keep in
mind one very influential fact....and it is a major one. The U.S.Open records achieved by the greats
before 1949 were accomplished on 10 ft. pool tables that are more challenging than any 9 ft. table.
A more fair comparison would be to see how well today's players perform playing 14.1, or 9 ball on
10 ft tables instead of 9 ft Diamond tables which are hard tables to play on but still easier than 10 ft.




Matt B.

 

[ironsoldier71]

I'd put my money on Mosconi...but I agree it would be a great match. If Strickland can keep sane he is a man to beat as well. Tough player.

I'd rather see Mosconi and Strickland on a 10 foot Brusnswick Gold Crown V.
Kind Regards,
Michael McDonald
Shooters Billiard Supply
www.shootersbilliardsupply.com
Player: Two Feather Anasazi by Viking Pool Cues (11 of 150)
Shaft: ViKore Shaft by Viking Pool Cues
Break: Predator Pool Cues Break 3
Jump: Air 2 by Predator Pool Cues
Case: Instroke 3x5 Southwest Black Pool Cue Case
Table: Diamond Pro Am 9 ft with Aramith Tourney TV Pool Balls

 

[grindz]

I got carried away

I would bet the farm on Mosconi at 14:1 against Efren or any other living player

also I think SJD was a pretty fair 14:1 player

I'm right there with you.... but I wish Worst had been in his era....might have been
as good as Federer and Nadal.

I don't get why SJD has animosity toward 14.1 as 1P shares so much with it. I would
think any great 1P player could get pretty good at 14.1 if they wanted to... of course
stroke fundamentals would have to be top notch to match the high potting % needed.
Dick??? Care to comment... :wink:

td

 

[lfigueroa]

I'm right there with you.... but I wish Worst had been in his era....might have been
as good as Federer and Nadal.

I don't get why SJD has animosity toward 14.1 as 1P shares so much with it. I would
think any great 1P player could get pretty good at 14.1 if they wanted to... of course
stroke fundamentals would have to be top notch to match the high potting % needed.
Dick??? Care to comment... :wink:

td

Perhaps. But as a broad stroke generalization: I believe almost any good 14.1 player could transition to 1pocket. The udder way around... maybe.

Lou Figueroa

 

[SJDinPHX]

Perhaps. But as a broad stroke generalization: I believe almost any good 14.1 player could transition to 1pocket. The udder way around... maybe.

Lou Figueroa

Not true Lou!..A top 14.1 player would have to put in a lot of time to learn to become a top 1P player!..(according to CJ, at least 2 weeks )....And what would be the incentive for a 1P player, to even want to become a 14.1 player?..No tournaments, no action, why bother?

People like Mosconi, Crane, Archer or Strickland, have all shown they had no desire to learn the complexities of hard core 1P!..In the case of the latter two, who gamble at pool for a living..it has now proven to be their loss!..Efren, Alex, and Busti, were at least smart enough to make the effort to learn 1P!

PS..Grindz, let the above post serve as my response to you!..I would be about as interested in learning 14.1, as I would be learning to play basketball! (I'm only 5'10'' )

 

[SakuJack]

This statement doesn't really reconcile with the one that follows it:

In my opinion, forget the equipment and all the other stuff. Talent is talent and I feel that the top five players of the Mosconi era would crush the top five of today's era players. Any five on five.

Sadly, only a few rare video's are available of players exist and usually are of the twilight of their abilities. I don't think we could fully understand the what those Mosconi era players were like in their prime.

If we can't understand what they were like in their prime, how can we be confident picking them against the current crop?

 

[lfigueroa]

Not true Lou!..A top 14.1 player would have to put in a lot of time to learn to become a top 1P player!..(according to CJ, at least 2 weeks )....And what would be the incentive for a 1P player, to even want to become a 14.1 player?..No tournaments, no action, why bother?

People like Mosconi, Crane, Archer or Strickland, have all shown they had no desire to learn the complexities of hard core 1P!..In the case of the latter two, who gamble at pool for a living..it has now proven to be their loss!..Efren, Alex, and Busti, were at least smart enough to make the effort to learn 1P!

PS..Grindz, let the above post serve as my response to you!..I would be about as interested in learning 14.1, as I would be learning to play basketball! (I'm only 5'10'' )

Yes, the good 14.1 player would need time to learn 1pocket but virtually any good 14.1 player could become a very good 1pocket player. However a good 1pocket player might not ever become a good 14.1 player.

Lou Figueroa