Playing differences in length of pro taper

J

johnnysd

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I know the differences in the different types of tapers, but I have a question that I am struggling to find an answer for, so want to stick to "pro tapers". I did a pretty extensive search and never really saw a direct answer.

What I am looking for are what are the playing differences that occur when a pro taper is lengthened?

Say you go from a 12" to 14" pro or even to a 20" like Earl.

I would think that a 14" pro taper is whippier than a 12" taper and a 20" pro tape is whippier than a 14".

Using a golf flag pole as an example, the taller it is the more the top of the flag pole will flex side to side in the wind, so I would think the flex from side to side would increase dramatically as the taper increases, which would make it whippier.

So it would seem the longer the taper, the more it deviates from a conical, European or SW style taper.

Is this true? Seems like it could be pretty complicated and it never seems to really be discussed. It always winds up a discussion of conical vs. pro, but I am very interested to hear thoughts on effects of the length of the pro taper itself.
 
A lot of factorsneeds to be taken into account. The most obvious is the tip diameter. If you c\have a really long taper on a 11.75mm shaft, that will be alot whippier than the same taper on a 13mm shaft.
I think very long tapers look stupid as you get a very pronounced bulge where the taper goes up to the final .844" or so.
 
Kim Bye said:
A lot of factorsneeds to be taken into account. The most obvious is the tip diameter. If you c\have a really long taper on a 11.75mm shaft, that will be alot whippier than the same taper on a 13mm shaft.
I think very long tapers look stupid as you get a very pronounced bulge where the taper goes up to the final .844" or so.
Click to expand...

Yes, but say we are only discussing the taper on a 12.75" shaft?
 
johnnysd said:
I know the differences in the different types of tapers, but I have a question that I am struggling to find an answer for, so want to stick to "pro tapers". I did a pretty extensive search and never really saw a direct answer.

What I am looking for are what are the playing differences that occur when a pro taper is lengthened?

Say you go from a 12" to 14" pro or even to a 20" like Earl.

I would think that a 14" pro taper is whippier than a 12" taper and a 20" pro tape is whippier than a 14".

Using a golf flag pole as an example, the taller it is the more the top of the flag pole will flex side to side in the wind, so I would think the flex from side to side would increase dramatically as the taper increases, which would make it whippier.

So it would seem the longer the taper, the more it deviates from a conical, European or SW style taper.

Is this true? Seems like it could be pretty complicated and it never seems to really be discussed. It always winds up a discussion of conical vs. pro, but I am very interested to hear thoughts on effects of the length of the pro taper itself.
Click to expand...

Well, some shaft blanks start off more whippy than others. Then you have some of the engineered low-deflection shafts. So with a low-deflection shaft, you'll have less whip than a standard shaft, and probably could lengthen the taper without increasing the whip considerably.

It really matters most how long your practice strokes are and if you use a looped bridge. Some people don't like a short or Euro taper if they used a looped bridge predominantly. Some people use an open bridge predominantly because it affords them a clear sight line over the shaft, and loop only when a hard stroke is needed with spin. It usually doesn't bother me either way, though my preference is to always loop unless the shot is soft, I need to get the cue out of the way in a hurry, or the table is very fast.
 
johnnysd said:
Yes, but say we are only discussing the taper on a 12.75" shaft?
Click to expand...

The more material you take off, the whippier your shaft will feel. If you`r planning to change the taper of your current shaft, it needs to be dead straight. Not straight to the eye when rolled on a pool table.
 
johnnysd said:
I know the differences in the different types of tapers, but I have a question that I am struggling to find an answer for, so want to stick to "pro tapers". I did a pretty extensive search and never really saw a direct answer.

What I am looking for are what are the playing differences that occur when a pro taper is lengthened?

Say you go from a 12" to 14" pro or even to a 20" like Earl.

I would think that a 14" pro taper is whippier than a 12" taper and a 20" pro tape is whippier than a 14".

Using a golf flag pole as an example, the taller it is the more the top of the flag pole will flex side to side in the wind, so I would think the flex from side to side would increase dramatically as the taper increases, which would make it whippier.

So it would seem the longer the taper, the more it deviates from a conical, European or SW style taper.

Is this true? Seems like it could be pretty complicated and it never seems to really be discussed. It always winds up a discussion of conical vs. pro, but I am very interested to hear thoughts on effects of the length of the pro taper itself.
Click to expand...
Johnny i think,generally speaking, what you are thinking is correct.the longer you pull back the "pro" taper the shaft gets slightly "whippier" at least that is what i think. I know there are specialists on the subject that are gonna say how many factors come into play,but in laymans terms,yes the shaft will become whippier and probably increases deflection too.
 
Factors:

Ring count of the wood. Is it maple or is it ash?

TIP DIAMETER. So important. I generally play an 11.5mm with a 14" pro taper. So whippy few people can stand it. If you can stroke it mostly straight ever time, the action is ridiculous. If you can stroke it DEAD straight with accurate grip pressure every time, the action is not only ridiculous but astoundingly controlled.

I also have a 9 inch "pro taper" at 11.75mm ( really a pro taper refers to 10-12 or now up to 14 to 20 inches of no taper rise, in the early days any zero-rise taper under 10 inches was just 'standard' taper compared to that 'euro' conical taper, pro taper was zero taper rise up to 12 inches) .... It honestly plays much the same as my 14" 12.75mm pro taper, similar action, similar stiffness and forgiveness, the only substantial difference is aiming it and some small effect from the higher shaft mass (0.4 oz) but all of those factors can be blended into the same area of performance varying on the stiffness of your grip.
 
Gorramjayne said:
Factors:

Ring count of the wood. Is it maple or is it ash?

TIP DIAMETER. So important. I generally play an 11.5mm with a 14" pro taper. So whippy few people can stand it. If you can stroke it mostly straight ever time, the action is ridiculous. If you can stroke it DEAD straight with accurate grip pressure every time, the action is not only ridiculous but astoundingly controlled.

I also have a 9 inch "pro taper" at 11.75mm ( really a pro taper refers to 10-12 or now up to 14 to 20 inches of no taper rise, in the early days any zero-rise taper under 10 inches was just 'standard' taper compared to that 'euro' conical taper, pro taper was zero taper rise up to 12 inches) .... It honestly plays much the same as my 14" 12.75mm pro taper, similar action, similar stiffness and forgiveness, the only substantial difference is aiming it and some small effect from the higher shaft mass (0.4 oz) but all of those factors can be blended into the same area of performance varying on the stiffness of your grip.
Click to expand...

Very interesting! Could you please expand your thoughts regarding the "stiffness of your grip" as it pertains to the "action" obtainable? Thanks a million! :smile:
 
All shaft woods are not the same.
You can have identical specs on two different cue shafts.
Use the OP's example" 12.75mm shafts with say 14" taper.

You can easily have two different cue-makers produce these
shafts and the shafts will feel and play different. It can happen
with the same cue-maker if he's not careful or inattentive.

The reason why is in the example I mentioned, one of the shafts
from cue-maker A weighed 3.5 ounces and the other shaft from
cue-maker B weighed 4.25 ounces & both use the exact same
size and taper. The wood itself selected for the shafts is very
important and there's also a question of whether the shafts are
piloted versus flat faced.since a piloted shaft uses a metal joint.

Even when you go and compare shafts on cues you come across
you have to allow for the ferrule material, length, and tip differences
as well. This question is best answered in the cue-maker's section.
In any event, when it comes to shafts, a 22% weight ratio is a helluva
lot better than a 18 - 19% weight ratio. That's why the shafts made by
the top cue-makers play the best because they use the best woods.
 
Bavafongoul said:
All shaft woods are not the same.
You can have identical specs on two different cue shafts.
Use the OP's example" 12.75mm shafts with say 14" taper.

You can easily have two different cue-makers produce these
shafts and the shafts will feel and play different. It can happen
with the same cue-maker if he's not careful or inattentive.

The reason why is in the example I mentioned, one of the shafts
from cue-maker A weighed 3.5 ounces and the other shaft from
cue-maker B weighed 4.25 ounces & both use the exact same
size and taper. The wood itself selected for the shafts is very
important and there's also a question of whether the shafts are
piloted versus flat faced.since a piloted shaft uses a metal joint.

Even when you go and compare shafts on cues you come across
you have to allow for the ferrule material, length, and tip differences
as well. This question is best answered in the cue-maker's section.
In any event, when it comes to shafts, a 22% weight ratio is a helluva
lot better than a 18 - 19% weight ratio. That's why the shafts made by
the top cue-makers play the best because they use the best woods.
Click to expand...


I second that.

I used to play w a Judd Fuller that i love so much,
great wood, smooth stroking taper , 30 inch shaft that gave me lots of cue ball action, the only thing i dislike about it was it hit a little on the soft side.
So i tried to make it hit more solid by getting a cuemaker to cut it down to 29 inch to make it play more solid.

Guess what, it didnt really.change much.

Guess the nature of my shaft wood is soft so cant really do much bout it.
 
Cezar Morales said:
I second that.

I used to play w a Judd Fuller that i love so much,
great wood, smooth stroking taper , 30 inch shaft that gave me lots of cue ball action, the only thing i dislike about it was it hit a little on the soft side.
So i tried to make it hit more solid by getting a cuemaker to cut it down to 29 inch to make it play more solid.

Guess what, it didnt really.change much.

Guess the nature of my shaft wood is soft so cant really do much bout it.
Click to expand...
What taper did Judd use?
 
johnnysd said:
What I am looking for are what are the playing differences that occur when a pro taper is lengthened?

I would think that a 14" pro taper is whippier than a 12" taper and a 20" pro tape is whippier than a 14".

So it would seem the longer the taper, the more it deviates from a conical, European or SW style taper.

Is this true? Seems like it could be pretty complicated and it never seems to really be discussed. It always winds up a discussion of conical vs. pro, but I am very interested to hear thoughts on effects of the length of the pro taper itself.
Click to expand...

I almost hate to answer this question, because most players have never held a micrometer, let alone know how to use it.

"Pro Taper" today means something entirely different than a few decades ago. In the 70s and 80s, if you had a pro taper 13 mm shaft, it stayed 13mm, or 512 thosandths of an inch for at least ten inches, then it gradually expanded to the joint.

Today, "Pro Taper" tends to mean, the area right above the ferrule is whatever the shaft is advertised, 13 mm, 12 3/4 mm, or whatever, and it has gradual expansion from there. It doesn't tend to stay the same measurement up the shaft for any appreciable distance. Of course there are exceptions, and you can get the cuemaker to do what you want, but the definition has changed.

You're basically correct, as you lengthen that "Pro Taper," whatever you think it is, you are creating a more flexible shaft, and your stroke and practice had better be good to handle it.

By, the way, the micrometer brand I recommend is Brown & Sharpe, in case you really want to get into this.

All the best,
WW
 
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WildWing said:
I almost hate to answer this question, because most players have never held a micrometer, let alone know how to use it.

"Pro Taper" today means something entirely different than a few decades ago. In the 70s and 80s, if you had a pro taper 13 mm shaft, it stayed 13mm, or 512 thosandths of an inch for at least ten inches, then it gradually expanded to the joint.

Today, "Pro Taper" tends to mean, the area right above the ferrule is whatever the shaft is advertised, 13 mm, 12 3/4 mm, or whatever, and it has gradual expansion from there. It doesn't tend to stay the same measurement up the shaft for any appreciable distance. Of course there are exceptions, and you can get the cuemaker to do what you want, but the definition has changed.

You're basically correct, as you lengthen that "Pro Taper," whatever you think it is, you are creating a more flexible shaft, and your stroke and practice had better be good to handle it.

By, the way, the micrometer brand I recommend is Brown & Sharpe, in case you really want to get into this.

All the best,
WW
Click to expand...
From my various interviews on this subject, many credit Herman Rambow with creating the initial pro taper, a more gradual increase of shaft diameter compared to billiard and snooker cues of the time. But there was still growth. That is, there was never any evidence that he created a cylindrical delay.

Bob Meucci is often credited with creating the more exaggerated delay of a shaft taper, closer to what a modern pro taper is, but even Meucci designed in gradual growth, albeit very small. Many believe his is cylindrical. None of my Meucci cues were ever cylindrical.

My personal feeling, the cylindrical, no taper delay was an erroneous copy, and that early proponents of the "pro taper" would have had a slight growth in the shaft in the first 10 or so inches. That would certainly make both engineering sense as well as terminology sense.

Freddie <~~~ seems like only 15 years ago
 
You can cut two shaft blanks from the same billet, same amount of grain lines, same thickness, same shape, and they may not be the same stiffness. The only way to get close would be to do deflection tests on many, many shafts of the same dimensions and pair the ones with the closest measurements. Both static and dynamic. Golf club makers get close by using weights and measuring static deflection, as well as a frequency analyzer. I ponder if it would be of some use to cue makers, in terms of matching a shaft frequency to a player's favorite shaft. Shafts would likely have to be mounted to the handle it's going on to get good readings.

Also, a micrometer is not absolutely necessary to take measurements. Cheap digital calipers from Harbor Freight are close enough. Unless you're actually building cues.
 
Cornerman said:
My personal feeling, the cylindrical, no taper delay was an erroneous copy, and that early proponents of the "pro taper" would have had a slight growth in the shaft in the first 10 or so inches. That would certainly make both engineering sense as well as terminology sense.

Freddie <~~~ seems like only 15 years ago
Click to expand...

Actually it was more like 40 years ago. If, for example, you bought a Joss cue in the early to mid 70s, it definitely had an even thickness in the shaft for the first ten inches. Possibly customer request, but that's at least my experience. But, then again, the shafts were thicker then, 13 1/4 and 13/12 were more or less the norm, so you could do an even pro taper for that long without creating too whippy a shaft. Most of this evidence is lost, of course, due to wearing out, and constant refinishing of shafts over the years. They're not lost on me though; I still have original 70s shafts.

I agree that Bob Meucci is probably thought to have the early "extended" pro taper, and yes, his did have slight growth through the front end, not exactly cylindrical.

On the other hand, I'd like to get my hands on Mosconi's Bushka, as it has been reported (and looks like in the pictures) that he had George build shafts with very long straight tapers, especially considering the time. As reported, this was because Willie was only five foot six and a half or so, and knew he would be extending the cue in his bridge hand quite a distance on many shots. We'll never know, unless we would get some measurements, but some extended pro tapers could have been quite early, such as this.

All the best,
WW
 
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1st off Wishing all AZ Members from around the World 'All the Best' for you, your family, friends and game.

2nd - I have had many different Custom and Production cues and many, many shafts go through my hands to play and take detailed 3" increment measurements from. Taking great notice to the 'feel' action, deflection and hit of each.

Again, this taper conversation is subjective, very personal just as diameter, length, tip and taper each of us might prefer. I have gone from Maple taking note of age, ring count and where ( Lake / Bowling Ally - State/ Region ) it was acquired to many different brand LD's back to maple over and over. Various tip diameters, ferrule material, capped un-capped, threaded non-threaded and length of said ferrules. Last but not least....collar and the joint.

It all makes a difference in someway. At the moment, my Predator v3 is in a bag resting from 4 months of use and in it's place on my player is a sweet 40 year old super tight grain, fiddleback 12.9mm to 13.9mm long 15" taper with a Triangle on the end. Feeling confident, playing lights out...... just like the v3 4 months ago LMAO :groucho:

Many Blessings,

-Kat,
 
Bob 14:1 said:
Very interesting! Could you please expand your thoughts regarding the "stiffness of your grip" as it pertains to the "action" obtainable? Thanks a million! :smile:
Click to expand...

Sorry for the delayed answer. What I mean is that you can control your spin vs. speed ratio by varying the 'effective mass' of your cue.

What does that mean??

Some people love a super-soft tip because they think it gives more spin. Others will slap a Medium-Hard or Hard tip on their cue and get just as much spin.

In general, with a heavier cue (19oz+) with a stiff shaft you need a softer tip to have the same range of spin available to you especially at low speed, and a with a lighter cue you need a harder tip to get the same energy when you punch a ball, otherwise your stun shots get 'soggy' and hard to precisely guide to the side. A light cue gives more control over spin with medium or hard tips, and a soft tips gives some extra control back to a heavier cue.

But, if you have a very good grippy tip and very good chalk (I'm a nut for Kamui blacks and Kamui chalk) regardless of cue weight and tip hardness, you can manipulate your spin/speed ratio by your grip pressure and wrist stiffness (still I'd stay under 20oz overall for your cue).

If I need maximum spin on a short delicate shot (say I'm 60 degrees to a pocket on the right and I need to slide 90 degrees left over 8-9 inches for the next shot) I will just barely hold on to the cue, cradle it, and let the cue (quickly) fall into place, hitting very low with a hint of right and as delicate as I can manage, and the backspin+right should be so great that the ball checks itself and just travels up a short distance at a right angle where a follow shot would have slammed into a rail and a firm grip would have resulted in the CB skidding several inches before the spin took hold.

When you need high spin compared to forward speed on your CB, hold the cue looser.

The basic principle is that cue speed increases spin, while 'effective cue mass
' increases forward CB speed. When you grip the cue firmer, the 'effective cue mass' includes more of your arm. And your arm is damn heavy, flesh and bone is heavier than wood.

So if you need to draw off a ball that is 9' away, you can use a firmer wrist and maybe grip the cue a little firmer to rocket-slide the CB across the cloth into the OB before the backspin has a chance to wear off, but still hit low with quickness to get high rotation. If you're in close and need a lot of draw to slide sideways without going too far, a light touch but quick delicate stroke can get the spin you want on the CB without the CB travelling very far.

Look into it. Cue elevation adds another dimension to the ability to control the CB. There is so much you can do with CB control it is difficult to put into words sometimes, you just have to intuit it at a certain point.
 
Gorramjayne said:
...
But, if you have a very good grippy tip and very good chalk ... , you can manipulate your spin/speed ratio by your grip pressure and wrist stiffness (still I'd stay under 20oz overall for your cue).

...
Click to expand...
Based on both physics theory and experiments, this is false.
 
johnnysd said:
Say you go from a 12" to 14" pro or even to a 20" like Earl.
Click to expand...

Don't know what Earl is playing now, but wasn't he playing CueTec for many years, which has the coated (wrapped) shaft? It would be stiffer compared to a plain maple shaft of same taper/profile, like the radially laminated and cored shafts we have today?
 
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