Learn with an aiming system or not

[Ralph Kramden]

Looking for some experienced shooters opinions on this. New to pool, been shooting steady for a year now and finally getting better. Want to know if I would make better progress with an aiming system or just stick to learning it by sight and feel. If this topic has been beat to death, my apologies in advance! Thanks for any input.

Welcome to the game it's fun and frustrating. Aiming using systems or not, has been beat to death in this forum. It's a bit like a religion where there is a lot of emotions and AZ even created it's own forum... HERE.

You can find all the info you want in that section. Good luck!

Mike81 - As you stated in your post, "been shooting steady for a year now and finally getting better."
I think using proven systems would shorten your learning curve.. I have tried most of them and I will
sometimes switch over, even during the same game, if the shot doesn't look right.

dardusm makes a very good point "aiming with systems or not has been beat to death in this forum."

.

 

[jburkm002]

If you don't develop a good stroke. It might make you think you need an aiming system. No idea if aiming systems work or not. Just believe your better off finding ways to test your stroke first. Maybe someone could put together an A to Z step by step process to test or master this before you go to that. Test how straight your stroke it with center English. Pass. Test your stroke using side spin. Pass. go to the next step and so on.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[bstroud]

If you are new to pool and have established good basic fundamentals then a simple aiming system is the next step.

Ghost ball aiming is simple and straight forward to learn. It will show you the basic angles for each shot.

Once your Conscious mind recognizes the proper angle, reinforce it by shooting the shot over and over. It takes thousands of repetitions to etch it into your memory. Do the same with every shot you can think of.

Once your Conscious mind is convinced that you can execute the shot you no longer need to depend on an aiming system. Just get up and shoot. Your Subconscious will do the work for you.

Using an aiming system all the time will not take the place of confidence and will eventually tire your mind out.

Bill S.

 

[garczar]

If you are new to pool and have established good basic fundamentals then a simple aiming system is the next step.

Ghost ball aiming is simple and straight forward to learn. It will show you the basic angles for each shot.

Once your Conscious mind recognizes the proper angle, reinforce it by shooting the shot over and over. It takes thousands of repetitions to etch it into your memory. Do the same with every shot you can think of.

Once your Conscious mind is convinced that you can execute the shot you no longer need to depend on an aiming system. Just get up and shoot. Your Subconscious will do the work for you.

Using an aiming system all the time will not take the place of confidence and will eventually tire your mind out.

Bill S.

Well said. Hey Bill, what year did you leave Tulsa for Colo.? A bunch of your cues still in play here.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

If you are new to pool and have established good basic fundamentals then a simple aiming system is the next step.
Ghost ball aiming is simple and straight forward to learn. It will show you the basic angles for each shot.
Once your Conscious mind recognizes the proper angle, reinforce it by shooting the shot over and over. It takes thousands of repetitions to etch it into your memory. Do the same with every shot you can think of.
Once your Conscious mind is convinced that you can execute the shot you no longer need to depend on an aiming system. Just get up and shoot. Your Subconscious will do the work for you.
Using an aiming system all the time will not take the place of confidence and will eventually tire your mind out.
Bill S.

Kind of what I said about the arch supports, eh Bill?

 

[Ak Guy]

They must help.

I am one of those players who goes by "feel". A couple of my buddies use aiming systems and they are both better then me, but not that much better.

I am probably a B shooter and to lazy to practice with an aiming system. At this point in my 66 year old life I am working on the repeatable accuracy of my inconsistent stroke and the accuracy and speed of my mediocre break.

I some times do stroke drills and I use the Magic and wooden racks along with the Predator Break Speed APP for improving my breaks. These 2 areas are my weakest links in my pool game.

That being said, I have tried using aiming systems, watched You Tube videos and DVD's and read about various aiming systems.

I think a good and consistent stroke is so important and that will be your best helper for any aiming system. So, if you see a bunch of pool playing in your future then I say go for it and if you find an aiming system that helps you to pocket more balls then use it.

I would love to hear some lengthy input on this subject from Efren and Earl. What ever aiming system they have used in their careers is what I would like to master. In their prime and in their "beast mode" they made it look so darn easy.

Look up "Doctor Dave" and see his thoughts on aiming systems. Have fun!

 

[JB Cases]

If you are new to pool and have established good basic fundamentals then a simple aiming system is the next step.

Ghost ball aiming is simple and straight forward to learn. It will show you the basic angles for each shot.

Once your Conscious mind recognizes the proper angle, reinforce it by shooting the shot over and over. It takes thousands of repetitions to etch it into your memory. Do the same with every shot you can think of.

Once your Conscious mind is convinced that you can execute the shot you no longer need to depend on an aiming system. Just get up and shoot. Your Subconscious will do the work for you.

Using an aiming system all the time will not take the place of confidence and will eventually tire your mind out.

Bill S.

How would you know since I assume you don't use an aiming system? Are you a neuroscientist who has data on what type of activity "tires the mind"?

I mean I understand that you were a good player and I guess still are a good player but what makes you an authority on what a person who uses a took like an aiming system feels when they use one?

The type of modern aiming systems the OP asked about have really only been in the public space for the past 20 years and really only with any intensity for the past 8 or so.

So just as you developed a lot of new techniques to build cues that you are convinced make for a better cue (I just bought a JW BTW and it hits like a monster) why is not your opinion that aiming systems can go well beyond Ghost Ball into objective references that are accurate and in contrast to tiring the mind they actually relieve the stress of the aiming portion of the game and free the mind to focus on the execution part of the game.

Or to put it another way, learning a modern aiming system can actually HELP a player get to the zone where the aiming calculations are simply done in a microsecond as the play is approaching the table and he is fully invested in making the cueball do what it needs to do with zero thought about whether or not he is aimed properly.

Perhaps it's time to look a little deeper into how pool has changed while you were busy revolutionizing the art and engineering of building cues.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

If you are new to pool and have established good basic fundamentals then a simple aiming system is the next step.

Ghost ball aiming is simple and straight forward to learn. It will show you the basic angles for each shot.

Once your Conscious mind recognizes the proper angle, reinforce it by shooting the shot over and over. It takes thousands of repetitions to etch it into your memory. Do the same with every shot you can think of.

Once your Conscious mind is convinced that you can execute the shot you no longer need to depend on an aiming system. Just get up and shoot. Your Subconscious will do the work for you.

Using an aiming system all the time will not take the place of confidence and will eventually tire your mind out.

Bill S.

Now that JB is done with Lou, are you trying to draw top spot on JB's "CTE vs no system" 1p grudge match list?

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

How would you know since I assume you don't use an aiming system? Are you a neuroscientist who has data on what type of activity "tires the mind"?

I mean I understand that you were a good player and I guess still are a good player but what makes you an authority on what a person who uses a took like an aiming system feels when they use one?

The type of modern aiming systems the OP asked about have really only been in the public space for the past 20 years and really only with any intensity for the past 8 or so.

So just as you developed a lot of new techniques to build cues that you are convinced make for a better cue (I just bought a JW BTW and it hits like a monster) why is not your opinion that aiming systems can go well beyond Ghost Ball into objective references that are accurate and in contrast to tiring the mind they actually relieve the stress of the aiming portion of the game and free the mind to focus on the execution part of the game.

Or to put it another way, learning a modern aiming system can actually HELP a player get to the zone where the aiming calculations are simply done in a microsecond as the play is approaching the table and he is fully invested in making the cueball do what it needs to do with zero thought about whether or not he is aimed properly.

Perhaps it's time to look a little deeper into how pool has changed while you were busy revolutionizing the art and engineering of building cues.

How about a $20k 10 ahead 1p match to settle things?

 

[garczar]

Now that JB is done with Lou, are you trying to draw top spot on JB's "CTE vs no system" 1p grudge match list?

If they play i'm taking BS for whatever.

 

[JB Cases]

If you don't develop a good stroke. It might make you think you need an aiming system. No idea if aiming systems work or not. Just believe your better off finding ways to test your stroke first. Maybe someone could put together an A to Z step by step process to test or master this before you go to that. Test how straight your stroke it with center English. Pass. Test your stroke using side spin. Pass. go to the next step and so on.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Once again OP it's not an either/or proposition.

People TRY to frame it this way but a good stroke is a REQUIREMENT for playing pool at any decent level REGARDLESS of how you aim.

A bad stroke, an inconsistent stroke, bad physical habits are all things that detract from having consistent success at the table. People miss a lot of shots that they should make BECAUSE of these issues.

So regardless of how you decide to pursue aiming a good stroke is essential to get the best results out of being on the right aiming line.

What MODERN aiming systems do for you is put you on the dead nuts PERFECT shot line for centerball line shots. That gives you a dead nuts perfect BASELINE to work from. When you then need to use sidespin it makes it MUCH EASIER to adjust as needed off that baseline. This all happens in a fraction of second once you learn the steps to use to accurately choose the reference points and align to them.

This isn't some magic bullet for your game or a cure all. It's simply a more accurate way to get to the shot line. Good players developed these methods and good players have refined them and good and great players use them. Yes you can get good without ANY formal "branded/named" aiming system but your learning curve will be a LOT longer. Yes, a LOT LOT LOT longer as you literally have to do trial and error discovery for aiming thousands of shots. You can literally improve much faster by investing the time to learn to aim objectively because then you will have more time to spend on the vast amount of nuance that must be learned to get good.

Lots of amateurs have wasted time aiming by feel and going the trial and error "hit a million balls route" only to find that they come up against groups of shots that they just can't seem to master. This is often because when they try to aim by "feel" with no objectivity they actually are seeing the shot line incorrectly. Modern aiming systems FORCE the shooter to adopt the right shot line and take all the illusions out of it.

Couple that with your well developed stroke and you'll be deadly accurate.

OR go with the advice from the 60s crowd and just work on your stroke and hope that the aiming will just work itself out.

 

[JB Cases]

How about a $20k 10 ahead 1p match to settle things?

Sure if you want to back me. Bill is 10x the player that Lou is even in his 70s.

But I will bet a 1000 on Stan Shuffett vs. Bill in a shot making contest. Stan will drill him and it won't be close.

Any time Bill wants to go to Stan's house and get it on camera I will be happy to bet the dime on Stan.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Once again OP it's not an either/or proposition.

People TRY to frame it this way but a good stroke is a REQUIREMENT for playing pool at any decent level REGARDLESS of how you aim.

A bad stroke, an inconsistent stroke, bad physical habits are all things that detract from having consistent success at the table. People miss a lot of shots that they should make BECAUSE of these issues.

So regardless of how you decide to pursue aiming a good stroke is essential to get the best results out of being on the right aiming line.

What MODERN aiming systems do for you is put you on the dead nuts PERFECT shot line for centerball line shots. That gives you a dead nuts perfect BASELINE to work from. When you then need to use sidespin it makes it MUCH EASIER to adjust as needed off that baseline. This all happens in a fraction of second once you learn the steps to use to accurately choose the reference points and align to them.

This isn't some magic bullet for your game or a cure all. It's simply a more accurate way to get to the shot line. Good players developed these methods and good players have refined them and good and great players use them. Yes you can get good without ANY formal "branded/named" aiming system but your learning curve will be a LOT longer. Yes, a LOT LOT LOT longer as you literally have to do trial and error discovery for aiming thousands of shots. You can literally improve much faster by investing the time to learn to aim objectively because then you will have more time to spend on the vast amount of nuance that must be learned to get good.

Lots of amateurs have wasted time aiming by feel and going the trial and error "hit a million balls route" only to find that they come up against groups of shots that they just can't seem to master. This is often because when they try to aim by "feel" with no objectivity they actually are seeing the shot line incorrectly. Modern aiming systems FORCE the shooter to adopt the right shot line and take all the illusions out of it.

Couple that with your well developed stroke and you'll be deadly accurate.

OR go with the advice from the 60s crowd and just work on your stroke and hope that the aiming will just work itself out.

The 60s crowd is holding $10k of your money. With better fundamentals.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Sure if you want to back me. Bill is 10x the player that Lou is even in his 70s.

But I will bet a 1000 on Stan Shuffett vs. Bill in a shot making contest. Stan will drill him and it won't be close.

Any time Bill wants to go to Stan's house and get it on camera I will be happy to bet the dime on Stan.

It won't be close, huh? Could we get an over/under? I want to know what "drill him and it won't be close" means.

And if CTE is just that good, why couldn't you go shot for shot against Bill? If it's a system, it shouldn't matter who uses it. Correct?

 

[JB Cases]

I think those aiming systems are mostly a psychological thing. Only exception might be true beginners, who have a hard time to see where to hit the object ball. But in my experience most of them need one or two hours with a more experienced player or a coach to spot that.
Anyway, finding the contact point and hitting it with the cue ball are two different things. That is where stroke mechanics and pre shot routine come into play and I guess where aiming systems unfold their psychological value. They suggest, that you have "done something" to "discover" that contact point (which was obviously there all the time and easy to see for everybody with a tiny bit of experience or just rudimentary understandings of geometry).
In fact you didn`t pocket the shot because of the system but that bit of extra time you took over your shot. You were focused a bit more, calmed down a bit, maybe brought to your mind that you need to keep your head still...or to make the pause on the back swing...

They aren't. Good aiming systems are objective concrete ways to align to the precise shot line.

But yes the pyschological "thing" in the execution part of the shot, that which always FOLLOWS aiming, is helped tremendously by being calm and focused and even using the quiet eyes techniques.

To those who don't use aiming systems it's almost impossible to describe the feeling of confidence one gets from using them. Confidence that comes from the experience of knowing that they produce accurate shot lines consistently.

There is literally no shot which can go that is out of bounds to attempt in a game for someone who uses a modern aiming system. Nothing that gives the system user any trepidation whatsoever because they know that the system is ACCURATE and if they simply can be steady in their stroke the odds of making the shot are pretty good. Even shots that look ridiculous from stupid angles.

I was a high diver. I dove from 100ft daily in shows for years. The first time I did I tried to go by "feel" with no training straight up to 90ft and landed almost flat on my back. Then I decided I should probably learn the high diving techniques that had been developed by a lot of people before me. When I did that I became proficient and confident and those techniques carried me through several years of performances with no injuries.

Confidence comes from knowledge that the output will be consistent. Aiming systems give you concrete objective techniques so that the input is consistent and thus the output can be depended on to be correct.

 

[JB Cases]

It won't be close, huh? Could we get an over/under? I want to know what "drill him and it won't be close" means.

And if CTE is just that good, why couldn't you go shot for shot against Bill? If it's a system, it shouldn't matter who uses it. Correct?

Incorrect. Having the fastest car doesn't make me a better driver than Michael Schumacher.

Bill is a seasoned player who has thousands of hours in on the table. He is zeroed in on experience alone. He has likely literally forgotten more than I will learn to be cliche'

Beyond that my stroke is horrible. Even on my best day it's still subject to veering ever so slightly and causing me to miss shots. So shot making isn't how I can "prove" that CTE works. That's best left to people who can execute consistently once they are down on the shot.

Stan has the stroke to send the cue ball precisely down the line that his system has placed him on. So I am confident he will make most of the shots he aims at. I have seen it in person and am willing to bet on it.

Now I'd be happy to bet that using CTE I could get ON the right shot line for just about every shot that goes directly to a pocket. If there was a way to let me get into the shooting position and freeze at center cueball and then verify with accuracy that that my cue was indeed on the shot line I'd bet super high on that that my success rate would be over 90% for the full range of shots in the 0-90 degree span.

If you want to set that test up I will GLADLY bet 10k on myself. That would be truly easy money.

 

[JB Cases]

The 60s crowd is holding $10k of your money. With better fundamentals.

Actually you're wrong. They are not over 60. I meant those who played in the 60s..... they don't have my money.

And never have I said fundamentals are not important. I said it's not an either/or thing.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Incorrect. Having the fastest car doesn't make me a better driver than Michael Schumacher.

Bill is a seasoned player who has thousands of hours in on the table. He is zeroed in on experience alone. He has likely literally forgotten more than I will learn to be cliche'

Beyond that my stroke is horrible. Even on my best day it's still subject to veering ever so slightly and causing me to miss shots. So shot making isn't how I can "prove" that CTE works. That's best left to people who can execute consistently once they are down on the shot.

Stan has the stroke to send the cue ball precisely down the line that his system has placed him on. So I am confident he will make most of the shots he aims at. I have seen it in person and am willing to bet on it.

Now I'd be happy to bet that using CTE I could get ON the right shot line for just about every shot that goes directly to a pocket. If there was a way to let me get into the shooting position and freeze at center cueball and then verify with accuracy that that my cue was indeed on the shot line I'd bet super high on that that my success rate would be over 90% for the full range of shots in the 0-90 degree span.

If you want to set that test up I will GLADLY bet 10k on myself. That would be truly easy money.

I love how you flip flop in your explanations. When you thought this up, did it make sense in your head?

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Actually you're wrong. They are not over 60. I meant those who played in the 60s..... they don't have my money.

And never have I said fundamentals are not important. I said it's not an either/or thing.

Hey Lou....were you playing pool in the 60s?

 

[JB Cases]

I appreciate everyone putting in their two cents. I can see it's quite a debate as to which some prefer. I have been doing stroke drills and ball pocketing drills. I did buy tor's DVDs and have had a lesson by an instructor who stressed the importance of straight stroke being key. All of that has helped and reading posts here as well. My problem is on some thin cuts, when you can't really see a contact point anymore cause the angle is extreme, I'm usually 50/50 on making the ball which can cost me the match. That's why I question maybe using a system would help maintain some sort of consistency, otherwise I've been just going with what I feel. Perhaps I am in too much of a hurry to figure it out and maybe it will fall into place sooner or later. I'll just keep bangin away!!!! To the guys who have pointed out that a good stance and psr is important im doing that too!! One more thing for you gentlemen... Does anyone out there shoot great on their own table at home and then shoot at about 50% of their skill during the match?? Like I do?? If you have the answer to that I'd be beyond grateful ! I'm sure it nerves but what a ***** that is!! Thank you all for your help

The reason that the debate exists is that some people just can't stand the fact that someone could develop ways to "see" the shot that produce more accurate results.

Aiming is a part of the game that MANY people literally take for granted. I was one of them. I was FIRMLY in the "hit a million balls and aiming takes care of itself" category before I was "smartened up" as they old timers used to say when someone would teach a customer what he he was doing wrong.

I can tell you this, WHEN your stroke is good and your stance is solid, then the ONLY reason you miss is because you aimed wrong.

And you aim wrong when you go by feel and contact point because as angles get steeper it gets harder to reconcile the lines and spheres due to parallax vision and the offset needed to get into shooting position in pool. This produces illusions where you THINK you're aiming right and actually you're not. Modern aiming systems literally force your eyes (and body) into the right position so that you're actually seeing the true shot line and not the illusory one.

What you described is EXACTLY what aiming systems exist for. The ability to know that the line you're one is truly the right one and thus be able to let your good stroke do the work.