I'm definitely picking on the CHIEF NIT......
Learn with an aiming system or not
- Thread starter Mike81
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I'm definitely picking on the CHIEF NIT......
John, you are obviously never going to stop touting CTE, or showing examples of other players (admitedly some pretty good ones) who think it has helped their game also!..I have neither the time, or the inclination, to prove my point, by digging up the names of all the great players, past and present, who have learned by HAMB and never gave CTE a second look! :sorry:
I would venture to guess (and I would bet heavily on it) that the HAMB guys, would outnumber the CTE guys, by about 100 to 1!..As someone else alluded to, if something like CTE would have been so effective, it would have been brought to the forefront (invented) 100 yrs. ago!..All the great players that flourished before the internet age, were not the idiots you seem to make them out to be!
You are a product of the digital age, and you seem to be blind to the inherent skills needed to excel at a game where hand/eye coordination will always be the dominant factor!..If you want to do something worthwhile..set up a poll, asking which method would be more effective, HAMB or CTE?
You lose. Because every CTE user is also a HAMB player. They were before they tried CTE and even more so AFTER learning CTE.
Only AFTER learning CTE they have a better foundation for hitting their next million balls.
I didn't say anyone of any age was an idiot. HAMB and CTE are not mutually exclusive.
In fact, student of the game that I am, I found this interesting story about BCA Hall of Famer Johnny Layton. He is credited with creating the first diamond systems in three cushion. The same type of diamond systems that are now standard in most instruction books - and which most players playing today don't know how to use because they won't take the time to learn them.
hand eye coordination? What exactly is that? You mean being able to look at something and orient to it? It's actually known as eye-hand coordination because the eyes have to see what the hand will go to.
Here is a little digital-age information for you to get up to speed on the subject.
https://www.outsideonline.com/1959876/4-easy-drills-improve-hand-eye-coordination
beyond that it's kind of silly to think that there is just no possibility for improvement in how to play pool since the 50s, 60s 70s....or whatever decade you think contained the pinnacle of pool performance....since virtually every other sport has had vast improvements in training and playing decade after decade.
Now, to your point that there are more people who don't use CTE than do....of course that's true. Anything new takes time to disseminate into the population and even more time if there is pushback against it. That doesn't invalidate it in the least. Shit we have people on here who are ready to swear on their children's lives that preFlag Master's chalk is different and better than post-flag master's chalk despite all evidence to the contrary.
Your pal Lenny Marshal (FastLenny) who worships you is an aiming system user and he is supportive of them. How good does he play in your opinion? Is he stupid? Deluded? A sucker?
The fact is that you can't say for sure what any of the old timers outside of yourself would have thought of CTE. I kind of venture to think that they would have been far more open minded about it back when they were young. How do I know?
Well because I have stood around and watched them trade shots and techniques at tournaments and shows. I have seen what I would call "jam" sessions where a group of well known players will stand around and show each other the things they know. It's happened several times at my booths over the years.
So respectfully, I disagree with you. I get it that you're a dyed in the wool "either you have it or you don't" type of guy who thinks that CTE is being touted as some sort of magic pill to go from crap to champion in a few minutes but that's not at all how it's promoted. In fact, it requires a lot of HAMB to get it down but once it's learned then it is IN FACT a super solid part of a person's game. What you think doesn't change that fact.
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GoldenFlash
Banned
Them "good ole days" are gone with the wind....
The world changed, man. New ideas and concepts came along.
The players from your era (and I was right there in it too....I've seen you, yourself, play many times) were just always trying to stick up somebody.
Most players from that heralded era were drunks, dopers, illiterates, and didn't have the brains to invent anything....other than some new trap to catch a chump.
I myself was lucky and abandoned all that goofy lifestyle.
How many from "them good ole days" ever dreamed of cell phones?....of course not they all said. "Won't ever need such a thing even if it was developed....got a phone booth on every corner". Anybody tried to find one lately? New ideas and new concepts came along.
The wonderful, ubiquitous, "they"........will do you in every time.
The guys below ALL lined up on half ball and adjusted from there...ALL of them. (they didn't title it CTE, pivoting, 90-90, or anything else....but that's how they got into position before pulling the trigger.) And I did business with all of 'em.
Left to right: Puckett, Joe Cosgrove, Railroad John, (don't remember next one), and Danny Jones, with Little Junior Goff in front. (By the way, did you ever stop winner against any of them?)
Still living in the past, I see.John, you are obviously never going to stop touting CTE, or showing examples of other players (admitedly some pretty good ones) who think it has helped their game also!..I have neither the time, or the inclination, to prove my point, by digging up the names of all the great players, past and present, who have learned by HAMB and never gave CTE a second look! :sorry:
I would venture to guess (and I would bet heavily on it) that the HAMB guys, would outnumber the CTE guys, by about 100 to 1!..As someone else alluded to, if something like CTE would have been so effective, it would have been brought to the forefront (invented) 100 yrs. ago!..All the great players that flourished before the internet age, were not the idiots you seem to make them out to be!
You are a product of the digital age, and you seem to be blind to the inherent skills needed to excel at a game where hand/eye coordination will always be the dominant factor!..If you want to do something worthwhile..set up a poll, asking which method would be more effective, HAMB or CTE?
The world changed, man. New ideas and concepts came along.
The players from your era (and I was right there in it too....I've seen you, yourself, play many times) were just always trying to stick up somebody.
Most players from that heralded era were drunks, dopers, illiterates, and didn't have the brains to invent anything....other than some new trap to catch a chump.
I myself was lucky and abandoned all that goofy lifestyle.
How many from "them good ole days" ever dreamed of cell phones?....of course not they all said. "Won't ever need such a thing even if it was developed....got a phone booth on every corner". Anybody tried to find one lately? New ideas and new concepts came along.
The wonderful, ubiquitous, "they"........will do you in every time.
The guys below ALL lined up on half ball and adjusted from there...ALL of them. (they didn't title it CTE, pivoting, 90-90, or anything else....but that's how they got into position before pulling the trigger.) And I did business with all of 'em.
Left to right: Puckett, Joe Cosgrove, Railroad John, (don't remember next one), and Danny Jones, with Little Junior Goff in front. (By the way, did you ever stop winner against any of them?)
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Yep, I am a nit. I offer a free training facility with lots of training materials and over 50 accustats dvds. Several players even have keys so they can come and train at any time.
I sponsor events and players and donate to a lot of personal and public causes.
And I try hard to keep the legacy of Hal Houle alive by promoting the systems he brought to pool.
And what have you done for pool lately?
Gave Deanoc $1100 for an EDC cue last week. Just got it today. Played league tonight. $20 went to the CPA. Ate at the bar. Had a couple of beers. So the pool room made $20 from me. The waitress got a tip. That was just today. So, how did I do?
I spoke with Hal. Several times. He conducted himself with class. You could have learned something from him besides an aiming system.
Yes, as a matter of fact..It was never easy, but I did come out ahead of a few of them, lifetime at one pocket!..Namely Puckett, Cosgrove and Danny Jones..(plenty of witnesses)..I never played RR John or Jr. Goff!
If you "did business" with all of them, then you would know that most good players of that era, rarely talked about their style, or method of play!..It was not to be secretive, it was just that among good players, certain things like that were always taken for granted!..Don't be like Barton, and refuse to acknowledge that fact!
PS..And yes, I guess I still do 'live in the past'..When our playing days are over, isn't that all we've got? :thumbup:
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Good Lord.
The original poster is just starting the game for God's sake.
He has admitted his mechanics and setup are his problems.
CTE is not going to help him.
You want someone to freaking work on pivoting ( on the air or on the table ? ), while he's still trying to figure out how to get setup on a SIMPLE STRAIGHT LINE?
Any instructor who teaches him some "more advanced" aiming system will be doing him disservice .
The original poster is just starting the game for God's sake.
He has admitted his mechanics and setup are his problems.
CTE is not going to help him.
You want someone to freaking work on pivoting ( on the air or on the table ? ), while he's still trying to figure out how to get setup on a SIMPLE STRAIGHT LINE?
Any instructor who teaches him some "more advanced" aiming system will be doing him disservice .
What is never discussed is the quality of practice that is needed to improve.
Example.......do you just go for putting the ball in the pocket or do you go for putting the ball in a specfic part of the pocket?
Do you practice the a wide range of CB speeds and OB speeds needed for long term consistency?
Do you practice your weak shots until they one of your strong shots?
Do you practice simple banks?
And so on.
The key to quality practice is knowing yourself, what fits into your style of play.
The first practice after competition needs to be focused on what went wrong during the competition.
Pressure of competition is hard for some to get used to, play in competition. Competition and practice, quality practice that is, are both needed in order to improve.
Give yourself time to improve, don't try to force yourself to do so.
Often it is implied a certain system will help in shorting the learning curve......stay away from those that make tha kinda a statement as they do not truely know what is needed to improve.
Mastering pool takes time......years.....decades.......a true commitment that is life long.
Improvement comes from the person and quality practice with competition included in the process.
You may have favorite game to play, but practice all of them. Especially 14.1. Why, because 14.1 is the only game where every ball, every pocket is legal and no required shot order.
This allows you to practice shots that normally you can't or won't see a lot of in the other games of pool. Shots like combinations, caroms or a shot using both those types of shots.
There is one great that has some books out that can help you get a insight on his approach to pool.
Google Arthur "Babe" Cranfield. It's amazing that he is so overlooked. You just might be surprised what you find in his books.
Example.......do you just go for putting the ball in the pocket or do you go for putting the ball in a specfic part of the pocket?
Do you practice the a wide range of CB speeds and OB speeds needed for long term consistency?
Do you practice your weak shots until they one of your strong shots?
Do you practice simple banks?
And so on.
The key to quality practice is knowing yourself, what fits into your style of play.
The first practice after competition needs to be focused on what went wrong during the competition.
Pressure of competition is hard for some to get used to, play in competition. Competition and practice, quality practice that is, are both needed in order to improve.
Give yourself time to improve, don't try to force yourself to do so.
Often it is implied a certain system will help in shorting the learning curve......stay away from those that make tha kinda a statement as they do not truely know what is needed to improve.
Mastering pool takes time......years.....decades.......a true commitment that is life long.
Improvement comes from the person and quality practice with competition included in the process.
You may have favorite game to play, but practice all of them. Especially 14.1. Why, because 14.1 is the only game where every ball, every pocket is legal and no required shot order.
This allows you to practice shots that normally you can't or won't see a lot of in the other games of pool. Shots like combinations, caroms or a shot using both those types of shots.
There is one great that has some books out that can help you get a insight on his approach to pool.
Google Arthur "Babe" Cranfield. It's amazing that he is so overlooked. You just might be surprised what you find in his books.
Mind your manners, Flash. If you can't learn to respect your elders then learn to respect your betters.
Dick has more time in a poolroom shitter than you do at a table.
GoldenFlash
Banned
Not a bad post, there, mister...not bad at all.Yes, as a matter of fact..It was never easy, but I did come out ahead of a few of them, lifetime at one pocket!..Namely Puckett, Cosgrove and Danny Jones..(plenty of witnesses)..I never played RR John or Jr. Goff!
If you "did business" with all of them, then you would know that most good players of that era, rarely talked about their style, or method of play!..It was not to be secretive, it was just that among good players, certain things like that were always taken for granted!..Don't be like Barton, and refuse to acknowledge that fact!
PS..And yes, I guess I still do 'live in the past'..When our playing days are over, isn't that all we've got? :thumbup:
When I said I did business...I didn't mean what we used to refer to as "doing business".
I was a little younger than all those guys, not by much though. I was also known as a most reliable stake horse and good for the bite.
So they would answer any questions I had and would actually demonstrate....well, Puckett wasn't all that pleasant, but the rest were.
Danny learned that lining up on the half ball from Wimpy. Wimpy beat Danny and Joe (Cosgrove) both..right there at Big Town Billiards in Atlanta. Wimpy had that line drawn on his cue ferrule and he showed Danny how he used it for precise aiming at the half ball and then adjusted accordingly. Billy Johnson came along after me and he did the same thing (didn't use the line though). You know, Billy's position wasn't all that great but by golly he could make a ball like nobody's business
I had never seen the idea put into a refined, exact, procedure until I came on this AZ computer site and watched Stan Shuffett....then his son. I'd been away from pool for a long time so this CTE excited me since I had seen it work before (it just didn't have a formal name). Using it has really raised my percentage of made balls and I've only been fooling with it for about 6-8 months.
Question......was this you?.........A guy came down to El Centro (Calif.) around 1956 to play Red Lofton (who was the big cannon at the Esquire Pool Room there on Main Street). We all went busted betting on Red. Then the guy went back up to San Diego and gave Long Beach a ball and the break and sent him and Tommy The Sailor along with Wild Bill the Russian right into the poorhouse. Been a long time ago of course. and I hadn't seen you before. (I was told they played there downstairs at The Arcade on 4th Street...up from the Golden West Hotel)
Seems like everyone had their demons to deal with....Danny Jones and his Gin Rummy, Joe Cosgrove and his Budweiser, Don Watson and his whiskey, and me with my laziness.
Your comment: And yes, I guess I still do 'live in the past'..When our playing days are over, isn't that all we've got? is a very profound statement.
Take care...:thumbup:
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GoldenFlash
Banned
Listen you....you have no clue about anything. Your railbird cracking is nosy, juvenile, and lame.
Cut up your jackpots someplace else. Now leave me alone.
SilverDevil
Registered
First your form needs to be consistent and straight with a good follow through but then...
I am in a similar position. I have shot a lot of balls using ghost ball + feel to get me to the intermediate level and what has worked best for me making the leap to advanced level (6-7, masters APA) was studying and applying fractional aiming and using feel to pick small locations between the fractions. I realized before that I was using feel and not actually aiming at any one specific spot on the ball. That more than anything (I think) will help you develop your system. If you don't know exactly where you want the ball to go and aim there then no system will help you. As William Wallace (Braveheart) said "Aim small, miss small."
I am in a similar position. I have shot a lot of balls using ghost ball + feel to get me to the intermediate level and what has worked best for me making the leap to advanced level (6-7, masters APA) was studying and applying fractional aiming and using feel to pick small locations between the fractions. I realized before that I was using feel and not actually aiming at any one specific spot on the ball. That more than anything (I think) will help you develop your system. If you don't know exactly where you want the ball to go and aim there then no system will help you. As William Wallace (Braveheart) said "Aim small, miss small."
Probably because you were not an asshole to Hal or he would have cut you off.
You consume in pool - I grow pool. That's the difference. You are the last person who should lecture me about class considering your long history of being an asshole for no other reason than to troll.
Using the BAT and Digicue
Has anyone tried the BAT?
What about the ob cues digicue cue training gizmo?
Thanks .. john_oleson@comcast.net
Has anyone tried the BAT?
What about the ob cues digicue cue training gizmo?
Thanks .. john_oleson@comcast.net
LOL. John, you have chosen pool as your profession. I work in process control. Want to know what I was doing this morning? Helping with the installation of a monitoring system in a clean room where they mix chemotherapy medications. They need to maintain a positive pressure in the clean room, so that the medicine isn't contaminated when they treat cancer patients.
Keep knocking out those cases, though. Noble profession. You're changing the world.
Asshat.
John Barton - "cue purse designer"
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I've had a lot of success falling onto every ball as a center-ball shot, and then modifying my tip placement after I'm down. Playing a lot of straight pool helps.
I used to fall on my shots with spin/draw/follow already set up in my tip placement, and I think there was a bit more conflict going on in my head. Caused me to wear down a bit faster.
I'm liking the center ball thought process because it is a consistent and absolute point to grow the feel of your shot from. I also really do think that feel is the most accurate way to aim since it transcends what your eyes can do.
The DigiCue will force you to notice that your cue ball isn't being delivered to where you thought it was (cause if you turn your head to look at a ball on Level 3, it'll buzz on you). Once your cue ball gets so good at hitting the object ball where you want it to, you'll pick up that higher level of awareness that is so evasive (and that you can't see anymore)
Play straight pool! I really believe it helps a lot with aiming.
Ooooh, I am impressed Shawn.....your career penis is clearly larger than mine. Well let's hope none of those medicines ever get contaminated and any of the patients dies because of it...I imagine you would feel horrible....or maybe you just do your JOB and don't ever follow up with the whether or not what you were a part of actually worked as designed....But kudos to you, I am sure you got into what is called, process controls, so you could be instrumental in saving lives..... you win sir, you win. Amazing humanitarian that you are how would I have ever had an ill thought about you.
But for the record, I didn't say anything that in any way indicated that my chosen field is noble or world changing. What I said is that OUTSIDE the scope of my JOB I am working to grow the sport. That's actual altruism. And it has a slightly capitalist bonus in that if the sport grows my sales might grow as well but that's a nebulous payoff that would manifest well into the future if at all.
IN pool you spend a lot of time KNOCKING and thus NOT trying to help pool grow. That's the topic not what you get paid to do. Now would you spend 8 hours a day doing "process controls" for non-profits for no pay? Maybe you do and maybe you don't but I guess you probably don't.
Well Bill that's not very nice. What makes you think I can't feel the shots? Have we ever played each other? I can play a little bit....maybe half a lick.
What makes you think that someone who uses an aiming system can't feel the shots?
But why make it personal and only about me? I showed you a bunch of videos of aiming system users who can clearly play pretty sporty. What about them?
I want to remind you of something you said to me at a show long ago that has had a lasting impression on me.
You once asked me why I thought you charged $300 for a shaft. I said I don't know. You said it's because you only keep about 25% of the shaftwood you buy and you already buy premium wood before it gets to you. You told me that you go through and match up the shaft dowels so that when you deliver two shafts with a cue they would be as matched as possible so both of them would have the same hit.
You said you charge $300 so that you never have to tell a customer why something isn't right. That's a very high standard and one I try to live up to in our case making. I am close to it in some ways and far away in others.
But the philosophy behind it is what I have always admired. Never settle for less than the best when the best is within reach. Never not do your best when doing your best is possible. That's what I took out of it. If I was wrong and read more into than you meant then please correct me.
But to me it also means don't stand behind anything you can't defend with 100% conviction that is supported by 100% inspection.
I know you don't think much of my game and with 9 hours of "evidence" I don't blame you. But when it comes to these aiming systems I have inspected them in dozens of ways. I know full well that they work and work extremely well. I remain however a cheerleader more than a good example because I built 20 years of horrible habits before anyone ever showed me an aiming system. I did FEEL the shots, all I did was feel when I played, I felt awesome when I would hit the zone and get in stroke and I felt horrible when I wasn't. All that to say that yes, I am an average player and remain so even with the knowledge of aiming systems.
But my personal rank in the world of pool players doesn't change the fact that the aiming systems work and work really really well. Stop looking at me and look at Stan Shuffett, look at his son Landon, look at Stevie and Phil and Gerry Williams and Duke Laha and Matt Krah and many others who clearly can play and at least give them credit for having enough pool sense to understand the difference between nonsense methods and something that really works to advance their game.