Kickin' Chicken -- What happened to the Ivory/SBE thread?
- Thread starter Agent 99
- Start date
Where did it go ... Did I miss something exciting? ..
He asked the mods to have it removed since it seemed like BS. I think it could have evolved into a good conversation.
It was raided by the feds.
They don't like ivory threads.
They don't like ivory threads.
Thanks ... I thought it would have been an informative thread as well.
Good rolls.
I have to ask: What do you think could have been informative?
How cops would inspect every ferrule and possible joint on every cue?
Some troll on FB even warned people that had ivory in their cues to have a proper "Elephant death certificate" to document the ivory.
Another person warned that only ivory that was harvested post ivory ban was going to be confiscated. How the heck would anyone know that?
The whole thing is a nuts idea started on FB by some nuts.
If it's regarding the same warning that popped up on Facebook, it's the guy who used to post as Seaglass something on here. He doesn't post here anymore, and to be frank I don't think anyone misses him. He now has his own Facebook cue sales group, which I briefly joined and then left because I quickly realized it's basically just him talking (most often to himself) about his political views.
On the ivory thing, he said he had it on very good authority via someone he knows in law enforcement that SBE was going to get raided and all new cues with ivory in them would be confiscated. If true, sounds like a ridiculous use of government resources. Doesn't seem to me like they'd waste the time, but who knows really.
On the ivory thing, he said he had it on very good authority via someone he knows in law enforcement that SBE was going to get raided and all new cues with ivory in them would be confiscated. If true, sounds like a ridiculous use of government resources. Doesn't seem to me like they'd waste the time, but who knows really.
Where did it go ... Did I miss something exciting? ..
became glaringly obvious that it was bs so I asked the mods if they would delete it and they did.
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One can still buy or sell ivory within the state of their residency unless you live in a state that prohibits such sales. I believe, currently, there are 4 such states.
Few cues would ever contain more than 200 grams of ivory, the "de minimus" amount allowed in an item such as a cue. One still needs to be able to provide proof that the ivory is legal, that it was in the U.S. lawfully before 1990 for African elephant ivory and 1975 for Asian elephant ivory. And, if you read the F & W directive,the guidelines for proof are a little vague. Current law allows one to own an ivory inlayed cue built by a cuemaker in the state where you reside. Taking it out of state is still, "iffy", in my opinion.
No one is sure of what happens to a player who carries his ivory inlayed cue to an out of state tournament. If I did take that type cue, if possible, I would like to have some paperwork to show that the ivory is "legal". This is difficult in many cases because you did not have the cue built for you by some cuemaker. Nearly all inlayed cues have less than 200 grams but I guess we sometimes fear being the Catch 22 guy who loses his cue. There are so many cues out there that have ivory inlayed well before this executive order and the owners have no paperwork as to the origin of the ivory. And rightly so, because, previously, this was not required. Gus Szamboti and others certainly did not offer "origin" certificates for their cues nor did the many folks who bought and resold their cues. This carried forward until the Executive order changed the landscape regarding ivory inlayed cues.
The trend seems to be that cuemakers are slowly moving away from ivory inlays as they exhaust their stock of ivory. They are not trying to replenish their supply from in state suppliers.
Like many AZBers, I fail to see how this will save one elephant but it is the law, currently, and the penalties for violating this order are significant.
We will, over the next few years, see how the plastic type substitutes work out. Will they shrink or expand in such a way that your expensive inlayed cue doesn't look so hot or will the substitutes work out just fine. Most of the value of the cue comes from the time and work involved in intricate inlays, and their are many expensive substitutes, including gold, silver, gemstones, and shell.
Few cues would ever contain more than 200 grams of ivory, the "de minimus" amount allowed in an item such as a cue. One still needs to be able to provide proof that the ivory is legal, that it was in the U.S. lawfully before 1990 for African elephant ivory and 1975 for Asian elephant ivory. And, if you read the F & W directive,the guidelines for proof are a little vague. Current law allows one to own an ivory inlayed cue built by a cuemaker in the state where you reside. Taking it out of state is still, "iffy", in my opinion.
No one is sure of what happens to a player who carries his ivory inlayed cue to an out of state tournament. If I did take that type cue, if possible, I would like to have some paperwork to show that the ivory is "legal". This is difficult in many cases because you did not have the cue built for you by some cuemaker. Nearly all inlayed cues have less than 200 grams but I guess we sometimes fear being the Catch 22 guy who loses his cue. There are so many cues out there that have ivory inlayed well before this executive order and the owners have no paperwork as to the origin of the ivory. And rightly so, because, previously, this was not required. Gus Szamboti and others certainly did not offer "origin" certificates for their cues nor did the many folks who bought and resold their cues. This carried forward until the Executive order changed the landscape regarding ivory inlayed cues.
The trend seems to be that cuemakers are slowly moving away from ivory inlays as they exhaust their stock of ivory. They are not trying to replenish their supply from in state suppliers.
Like many AZBers, I fail to see how this will save one elephant but it is the law, currently, and the penalties for violating this order are significant.
We will, over the next few years, see how the plastic type substitutes work out. Will they shrink or expand in such a way that your expensive inlayed cue doesn't look so hot or will the substitutes work out just fine. Most of the value of the cue comes from the time and work involved in intricate inlays, and their are many expensive substitutes, including gold, silver, gemstones, and shell.
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I think you may have answered your own question.
Most people are too busy, or do not usually look up statute, then review it and come to an understanding of what the Law really states, and it's real ramifications on us as pool players.
I think further discussion based on the actual written statute would have been informative to many people who at this time are really not sure about the realities of this situation.
Good luck and shoot straight.
I think it would have been informative in that educated people who actually study the current ivory laws would have posted rebuttals that would have helped to educate knee-jerk emotional reactions and downright BS information.
Freddie <~~~ not educated
The mods piled under the SW waiting list.
The Ivory Ban Is Real But Your Cues Are Safe At The Show.
I had posted explaining the difference between the Federal Law & Interstate Commerce Transactions and State Laws that regulate all Intrastate transactions but of course, Federal Law always have precedent , except when the law is silent about something. Any state can enact its own version of a Federal statute as long as the state law complies with all of the provisions of the Federal Law. Why would a state do that? Because although a state law can never supercede any Federal Law, it can enact more stringent penalties, sanctions and expand upon the Federal Law by making it even more restrictive and punitive that can include more harsh criminality charges.
Let's get this one item clear.......Possession or Ownership of a pool cue containing ivory is not illegal. No one is going to legally confiscate your pool cue and if an agency did that, they would be subject to legal penalties for applying the law improperly. The law is clear about this. If you now own a pool cue that contains ivory, it is legal. The issue that arises is where do you live? Does your state have any laws "in place".....on the books? If so, then that law has significance.
New Jersey banned ivory in June 2014 and a few months later, the State of New York passed legislation banning ivory sale (Aug. 2014). California enacted a ban on July 1, 2016. So I had two custom cues underway in 2015, one each from Bob Owen & Jerry Rauenzahn. California enacted its ivory ban in Nov 2015 with an effective date of July 1, 2016. The law is very clear and straightforward in California. I even met with the CA Fish & Wildlife Enforcement Division about obtaining CITES certification for my pool cues. Anyway, I had to tell Bob & Jerry my cues must reach me before the end of June because if the cues arrived on or after July 1st, they are subject to confiscation as an illegal purchase. I even argued "ex post facto" with the Enforcement Division of CA Fish & Wildlife but the CA State Attorney already issued written instructions that any cue delivery on July 1, 2016 or thereafter, that was in fulfillment of any purchase, sale or for any other procurement involving change of ownership, regardless of the original purchase or transaction date, was in violation of the new state law after July 1, 2017.
So I put pressure on Bob & Jerry and they accommodated the new time table and my cues arrived Memorial Day Weekend 2016, a month before the ban started. Everyone really needs to learn about what their own states are doing about enacting laws regulating ivory sales. Now if you are physically outside your state when you buy or sell your pool cue containing ivory, and the transaction occurs in a state that does not have any ivory restrictions, it is a legal and you have not violated your state law. I confirmed this with CA authorities so I have to go to Nevada to sell or ship my cues to a buyer in another state. While in Nevada, I could also trade any of my cues at a cue show or buy another cue and bring it home. I just cannot transact business while I am residing in CA according to the CA's law.
Anyway, on February 24, 2017, Pennsylvania moved forward with its own legislation regulating ivory which, to the best of my knowledge, has not yet been passed. The bill # is 248 and it prohibits the import, sale, purchase, barter or possession of ivory or rhinoceros horn with limited exception. Purchasing and selling any such products would become a misdemeanor of the second degree and would set unreasonable fines of $1,000 or more as yet to be determined. To the best of my knowledge, It has not yet been passed. SBE attendees should be okay but remember that any cue dealer selling, buying, trading or even just a swap, at SBE can still have a problem, If you buy or sell cues or are a cue-make and reside in a state that restricts the sale of ivory, you are still expected to abide by the law even when outside of your state jurisdiction. This is being argued right now but CA has stated the restriction is on the activities of the business and so unless the cue-maker's shop is outside of CA, he cannot sell any cues he makes in his shop in another state. It's tar baby issue admittedly and every state can rule differently so check the lay of the land where you reside.
Matt B.
I had posted explaining the difference between the Federal Law & Interstate Commerce Transactions and State Laws that regulate all Intrastate transactions but of course, Federal Law always have precedent , except when the law is silent about something. Any state can enact its own version of a Federal statute as long as the state law complies with all of the provisions of the Federal Law. Why would a state do that? Because although a state law can never supercede any Federal Law, it can enact more stringent penalties, sanctions and expand upon the Federal Law by making it even more restrictive and punitive that can include more harsh criminality charges.
Let's get this one item clear.......Possession or Ownership of a pool cue containing ivory is not illegal. No one is going to legally confiscate your pool cue and if an agency did that, they would be subject to legal penalties for applying the law improperly. The law is clear about this. If you now own a pool cue that contains ivory, it is legal. The issue that arises is where do you live? Does your state have any laws "in place".....on the books? If so, then that law has significance.
New Jersey banned ivory in June 2014 and a few months later, the State of New York passed legislation banning ivory sale (Aug. 2014). California enacted a ban on July 1, 2016. So I had two custom cues underway in 2015, one each from Bob Owen & Jerry Rauenzahn. California enacted its ivory ban in Nov 2015 with an effective date of July 1, 2016. The law is very clear and straightforward in California. I even met with the CA Fish & Wildlife Enforcement Division about obtaining CITES certification for my pool cues. Anyway, I had to tell Bob & Jerry my cues must reach me before the end of June because if the cues arrived on or after July 1st, they are subject to confiscation as an illegal purchase. I even argued "ex post facto" with the Enforcement Division of CA Fish & Wildlife but the CA State Attorney already issued written instructions that any cue delivery on July 1, 2016 or thereafter, that was in fulfillment of any purchase, sale or for any other procurement involving change of ownership, regardless of the original purchase or transaction date, was in violation of the new state law after July 1, 2017.
So I put pressure on Bob & Jerry and they accommodated the new time table and my cues arrived Memorial Day Weekend 2016, a month before the ban started. Everyone really needs to learn about what their own states are doing about enacting laws regulating ivory sales. Now if you are physically outside your state when you buy or sell your pool cue containing ivory, and the transaction occurs in a state that does not have any ivory restrictions, it is a legal and you have not violated your state law. I confirmed this with CA authorities so I have to go to Nevada to sell or ship my cues to a buyer in another state. While in Nevada, I could also trade any of my cues at a cue show or buy another cue and bring it home. I just cannot transact business while I am residing in CA according to the CA's law.
Anyway, on February 24, 2017, Pennsylvania moved forward with its own legislation regulating ivory which, to the best of my knowledge, has not yet been passed. The bill # is 248 and it prohibits the import, sale, purchase, barter or possession of ivory or rhinoceros horn with limited exception. Purchasing and selling any such products would become a misdemeanor of the second degree and would set unreasonable fines of $1,000 or more as yet to be determined. To the best of my knowledge, It has not yet been passed. SBE attendees should be okay but remember that any cue dealer selling, buying, trading or even just a swap, at SBE can still have a problem, If you buy or sell cues or are a cue-make and reside in a state that restricts the sale of ivory, you are still expected to abide by the law even when outside of your state jurisdiction. This is being argued right now but CA has stated the restriction is on the activities of the business and so unless the cue-maker's shop is outside of CA, he cannot sell any cues he makes in his shop in another state. It's tar baby issue admittedly and every state can rule differently so check the lay of the land where you reside.
Matt B.