Coring For Tone

[rhinobywilhite]

You say there is too much glue involved when it comes to improving resonance and coring. Then you say the purest transition of resonance is done with 4 pt F/S. Well, there is a layer of glue between the entire surfaces of the forearm and butt wood with full splice. Personally, I don't see how you can have it both ways when it comes to blaming the glue. I have not done any calculations, but I'm pretty sure there is more glued surface area in a FS cue than there is in a cored forearm cue.

I will go a step further when it comes to F/S. What happens when you add veneers to FS? Now you have a full layer of laminated veneers that were literally soaked in glue fully separating the forearm and the butt wood. What happens to that pure resonance then? If someone chooses a forearm and then choses a handle wood for a FS construction because they are trying to achieve a certain tone...and then add veneers...

You have touched on an issue(veneers) that has been a concern for me ever since I began building cues in '92.

Customers like veneers but my feelings, at least in the early years, were that every glue joint was another possible point for glue failure. Certainly, today we have many more types of glues to choose from but the number of surfaces put together with some type glue still remain. I still build a number of cues with veneers because that is the preference of many customers.

My personal preference for an A joint build does not involve veneers but I like to use BRE or Ebony for the points and maple for the forearm. The BRE, as we all know, is difficult and expensive to obtain , now. When I core, I use straight grain maple or purpleheart.

This is a great thread, in my opinion and the type information that benefits every cuemaker regardless of how he or she puts together a cue.

Last, a puzzle that you guys might have the answer to or it might just be my imagination but do you notice a hit or tonal difference when you build a 5 point as opposed to a 4 point? I build very few 5 points but I do like them.

 

[KJ Cues]

Originally Posted by KJ Cues
"IMO, coring isn't done to improve resonance or to define it."

Speak for your own cues. In my cues, tonal characteristics is one of the paramount purposes for coring.

Translation : IMO means 'In My Opinion', so yes, I am speaking for my own. I'm certainly not speaking for anyone else.
Nor did I come here to argue. I came to offer my opinion on a topic that I started 4 yrs ago.
You're welcome to agree/accept what I'm presenting or not. I'm certainly not making demands that anyone follow my lead.
Accept what you like, reject what you don't. Makes no never-mind to me. I see that you do agree with some of what I said.
Thanx.

 

[KJ Cues]

You say there is too much glue involved when it comes to improving resonance and coring. Then you say the purest transition of resonance is done with 4 pt F/S. Well, there is a layer of glue between the entire surfaces of the forearm and butt wood with full splice. Personally, I don't see how you can have it both ways when it comes to blaming the glue. I have not done any calculations, but I'm pretty sure there is more glued surface area in a FS cue than there is in a cored forearm cue.

I will go a step further when it comes to F/S. What happens when you add veneers to FS? Now you have a full layer of laminated veneers that were literally soaked in glue fully separating the forearm and the butt wood. What happens to that pure resonance then? If someone chooses a forearm and then choses a handle wood for a FS construction because they are trying to achieve a certain tone...and then add veneers...

Kelly,
You know how to do independent research. You're the first to bring 'veneers' into the discussion.
'Well, what abouts'.....'and what ifs' aren't my concern. I'm not interested in broadening the topic
to cover every contingency either. If you guys want to argue, please find someone else to do it with.
I will give you this to ponder though. It was presented in another thread regarding coring that a 'tolerance'
btwn the core and sleeves was anywhere btwn .005" and .010". Do you leave the same tolerance btwn veneers ?
"What happens when" sounds to me as an ill-conceived trap. Google your heart out, then you'll know.

KJ

 

[JoeyInCali]

Originally Posted by KJ Cues
"IMO, coring isn't done to improve resonance or to define it."



Translation : IMO means 'In My Opinion', so yes, I am speaking for my own. I'm certainly not speaking for anyone else.
Nor did I come here to argue. I came to offer my opinion on a topic that I started 4 yrs ago.
You're welcome to agree/accept what I'm presenting or not. I'm certainly not making demands that anyone follow my lead.
Accept what you like, reject what you don't. Makes no never-mind to me. I see that you do agree with some of what I said.
Thanx.

Not arguing but...

I'm reading this article on African Blackwood and it got me to wondering.
I know nothing of guitar building but appreciate the intricacies of the craft.
The article mentioned that guitar builders (Luthiers) will use different woods
in different combinations to better achieve a particular tone, range, sustain, etc.
Each wood contributes it's own characteristics/qualities to the overall tone of the instrument.

In the article that I was reading, I believe this is what flipped the switch: (the author is speaking of Af.BW)
"Tonally, I would say that it can be as good as a great set of Brazilian when matched with the right top and
allowed to make its contribution to the overall tone of the guitar that it’s used in.
It has that nice quick bottom and great harmonic blanket that Brazilian lends to the final complexity of the guitar
in tandem with the contribution of the top and the builder’s work to maximize it.”

I then wondered; could this same principal be applied to cue-making via coring?

Yes, it can.

 

[MVPCues]

Kelly,
You know how to do independent research. You're the first to bring 'veneers' into the discussion.
'Well, what abouts'.....'and what ifs' aren't my concern. I'm not interested in broadening the topic
to cover every contingency either. If you guys want to argue, please find someone else to do it with.
I will give you this to ponder though. It was presented in another thread regarding coring that a 'tolerance'
btwn the core and sleeves was anywhere btwn .005" and .010". Do you leave the same tolerance btwn veneers ?
"What happens when" sounds to me as an ill-conceived trap. Google your heart out, then you'll know.

KJ

??? I'm wanting to argue by giving my opinion that there might be a logic discrepancy in regards to what you said about too much glue? There was a rule in this thread against bringing up veneers? Google my heart out? Ill conceived trap?

Pointing out the tolerance in a typical coring job is far from the seam of glue left over after laminating veneers under high pressure was a fine rebuttal. You couldn't just say that?

"Pound sand, I'm not interested". Loud and clear, thanks.

 

[conetip]

Instead of using a high speed camera, I'm going to try one of Bob's frequency analyser to see if the data corresponds to the camera data that we currently have.
Neil

 

[qbilder]

Originally Posted by KJ Cues
"IMO, coring isn't done to improve resonance or to define it."



Translation : IMO means 'In My Opinion', so yes, I am speaking for my own. I'm certainly not speaking for anyone else.
Nor did I come here to argue. I came to offer my opinion on a topic that I started 4 yrs ago.
You're welcome to agree/accept what I'm presenting or not. I'm certainly not making demands that anyone follow my lead.
Accept what you like, reject what you don't. Makes no never-mind to me. I see that you do agree with some of what I said.
Thanx.

Since we're on the topic of "tone", I'm not sure what to think of yours. Disagreeing with you on certain points doesn't mean I'm attacking you or saying you are wrong for believing what you do. It means only that I disagree with certain points. If you feel you need to defend your point of view, or defend yourself for holding that point of view, then the concept of a civil exchange of ideas is no longer relevant. In that case, there's no positive conclusion to the discussion. On the other hand, if so inclined to engage in a civil exchange of views, the topic could be beneficial.

 

[billiardthought]

Kelly,
You know how to do independent research. You're the first to bring 'veneers' into the discussion.
'Well, what abouts'.....'and what ifs' aren't my concern. I'm not interested in broadening the topic
to cover every contingency either. If you guys want to argue, please find someone else to do it with.
I will give you this to ponder though. It was presented in another thread regarding coring that a 'tolerance'
btwn the core and sleeves was anywhere btwn .005" and .010". Do you leave the same tolerance btwn veneers ?
"What happens when" sounds to me as an ill-conceived trap. Google your heart out, then you'll know.

KJ

You didn't even attempt to reconcile prefering the glue in full splice to hating the glue in cored cues......

 

[JoeyInCali]

Again, theories are nice.
Mock-ups are cheap and easy to do ( relatively speaking ) . And well worth it.
Make 'em.

One person used to ask me a ton of questions on how to make things and how they were. He talked to way too many makers. He'd shop the info around. One day I was screaming at him and asking why he would bother calling me and asking me if he's going to be calling others and asking what they think as well.
He once told me the veneers were mitered at 87*. Not 90*. I asked how he knew that when he wasn't mitering veneers yet. Yup, he heard it and it was the gist because he heard about it . And he knew that was accurate before doing it.
He told me one famous maker was using penetrating epoxy as base coat.
Unknown to him, I already tried it and decided to never touch the thing because it was freaking more toxic than nelsonite. It smelled like crap. I told him to go ahead do it if he pleases.

Nothing is proven until you prove it to yourself.

The late Indian Larry said it best when he talked about making custom bikes.
" The more you know, the less you know." When you discover new things, it makes you realize you don't know as much as you think.

 

[rhinobywilhite]

The more you know, the less you know is the story of my life-

 

[MVPCues]

You have touched on an issue(veneers) that has been a concern for me ever since I began building cues in '92.

Customers like veneers but my feelings, at least in the early years, were that every glue joint was another possible point for glue failure. Certainly, today we have many more types of glues to choose from but the number of surfaces put together with some type glue still remain. I still build a number of cues with veneers because that is the preference of many customers.

My personal preference for an A joint build does not involve veneers but I like to use BRE or Ebony for the points and maple for the forearm. The BRE, as we all know, is difficult and expensive to obtain , now. When I core, I use straight grain maple or purpleheart.

This is a great thread, in my opinion and the type information that benefits every cuemaker regardless of how he or she puts together a cue.

Last, a puzzle that you guys might have the answer to or it might just be my imagination but do you notice a hit or tonal difference when you build a 5 point as opposed to a 4 point? I build very few 5 points but I do like them.

Thanks for your post. I understand your thoughts. I do think if there ever were glued surfaces (at least with epoxies allowed to soak in when laminating them an then later gluing in the groove) that would fail last in a cue it would be laminated veneers.

Regarding my original post and questions, let's look at it using extreme cases from a logical standpoint. If someone selects a particular forearm and butt wood, at least in part, to achieve a particular tone in a FS cue. Then, steel veneers are added between the two woods. Is the tone changed? I'm going to assume reasonably minded cuemakers (oxymoron?) will say yes. If you replace the steel veneers with neoprene veneers, is the tone changed? Again, yes. The resulting conclusion should be that adding a layer of veneers (remember, for FS cues, the veneers completely insulate the two woods from each other) has potential to change the tone of the butt. Does this imply the strictest "I don't core because of purity of hit" gurus should not add veneers to a FS build? <shrug> Hypothetical question.

I'm not saying adding veneers to a FS butt automatically compromises the cue. It does change things though, and so is therefore a worthy subject IMO. I have wondered if the recut guys (Madden?) went their direction because of veneer misgivings, or they just wanted to be different. Sometimes equipment and early knowledge sort of puts us on a certain path of building, so who knows.

We aren't plate tuning for violins, but I do try and mix and match woods for tone when options are available. I consider this an aspect of cue building that has lots of dark corners. My flash light is pretty small...just trying to poke holes to force myself to think.

 

[qbilder]

I'm not saying adding veneers to a FS butt automatically compromises the cue. It does change things though, and so is therefore a worthy subject IMO. I have wondered if the recut guys (Madden?) went their direction because of veneer misgivings, or they just wanted to be different. Sometimes equipment and early knowledge sort of puts us on a certain path of building, so who knows.

We aren't plate tuning for violins, but I do try and mix and match woods for tone when options are available. I consider this an aspect of cue building that has lots of dark corners. My flash light is pretty small...just trying to poke holes to force myself to think.

I agree with pretty much all of this. The veneers, like a core, do not compromise the tonal characteristics but it does change things. It's funny you mention plate tuning. That is very much the same principle and objective as tone matching cue woods. That is pretty much exactly what I do at nearly every step of making a cue. The difference is that rather than matching, I often purposefully mismatch so to attain a particular tone. I suspect if violins were made of all the varieties of woods we use in cues, the luthier would be doing the same. It doesn't bother me that there's a metal stud, either. It's common belief that the metal deadens or kills the hit, and it's simply not true. I used to believe it as well, but have found through experience that the metal stud adds nor retracts anything tonally. It resonates so purely and at such high pitch that it is nothing but a passive conduit. Unless it's so exceptionally long that it hinders the cue's ability to flex, it is harmonically invisible.

As for recuts, the reason I do recuts has nothing to do with tone. It's because there are designs that can be done with recuts that cannot be done with veneer. That's not to say somebody else doesn't have different reasons, just that for me it's aesthetic motivated.

 

[louieatienza]

I don't know if "plate tuning" in bowed instruments is comparable to cue "tuning." With the bowed instrument, this constitutes adjusting the thickness of the recarve area of the plate, which is from the edge of the instrument to about an inch or so in. Enough wood is removed by the builder that the plate responds in a sensitive way, and adds more "fullness" and "richness" to the voice. While there will be some reverberation inside the sound box, the bowed instrument soundbox does not necessarily sustain on its own, nor is it likely desirable, as you can saw all you want with the bow to "sustain" the note. But, a violin back would almost always be made of fiddleback maple (sycamore for the Europeans here), or a wood of similar density and ring (or really lack thereof such as walnut or cherry). Somewhat similar is the archtop guitar, though the top and back are not coupled with a tone bar like a bowed instrument.

 

[qbilder]

The only thing relative between plate tuning and tone testing cue woods is listening to tap tone. Completely different application, but same purpose and similar methods. Listening to the tap tone allows a luthier to know how much wood to remove so they can tune components for matching, whereas in cues it also allows us to match components but ours are static dimension.

However, we(some of us) do use coring to tune a component. For instance, if I had a camphor burl forearm that has dull, dead tone, I can tune it to resonate higher & stronger by coring it with a brighter tone wood. If I core it with 5/8" maple, it'll brighten to the point of somewhere between maple & camphor. A 3/4" core would bring it closer to matching that of a maple forearm. Coring it with 3/4" jatoba or granadillo would brighten it significantly past maple, similar to that of a pingy rosewood. Point being, I could tune that camphor burl to hit, feel, and sound pretty much any way I want and the cue will still have a camphor burl forearm. The possibilities are endless. On the flip, I can take a crazy pingy wood like granadillo and dumb it down to a more comfortable level by coring it with something duller, like maple. Using tap tone as a guide, just like with plate tuning, makes it possible to engineer a particular resonance.

 

[Mcues]

Very interesting post

Mario

 

[louieatienza]

The only thing relative between plate tuning and tone testing cue woods is listening to tap tone. Completely different application, but same purpose and similar methods. Listening to the tap tone allows a luthier to know how much wood to remove so they can tune components for matching, whereas in cues it also allows us to match components but ours are static dimension.

However, we(some of us) do use coring to tune a component. For instance, if I had a camphor burl forearm that has dull, dead tone, I can tune it to resonate higher & stronger by coring it with a brighter tone wood. If I core it with 5/8" maple, it'll brighten to the point of somewhere between maple & camphor. A 3/4" core would bring it closer to matching that of a maple forearm. Coring it with 3/4" jatoba or granadillo would brighten it significantly past maple, similar to that of a pingy rosewood. Point being, I could tune that camphor burl to hit, feel, and sound pretty much any way I want and the cue will still have a camphor burl forearm. The possibilities are endless. On the flip, I can take a crazy pingy wood like granadillo and dumb it down to a more comfortable level by coring it with something duller, like maple. Using tap tone as a guide, just like with plate tuning, makes it possible to engineer a particular resonance.

This actually is more in tune (pun kind of intended) with solid body electric guitar construction. For example, with a Gibson Les Paul, if it were just solid mahogany and humbuckers were used, it could have a "muddy" sound. Though some may call it "warm" and "womanly." Gibson caps the mahogany with maple, which helps brighten up the sound, accentuate the trebles more. Or use P90 pickups which add a bit of brightness. On the other end of the spectrum would be a solid maple body... to some it may be too bright and shrill, especially paired with single coil pickups. But it can be toned down with humbuckers, which can bleed off some treble, while still have a cutting edge sound - a combination used by many metal players.

The typical EVH guitars are basswood with a maple cap. Steve Vai's "Meanie Greenie" was actually a solid basswood Charvel, but chosen because basswood tends to "choke" notes, which is a good thing for someone like Vai who plays warp speed. Same for the late great Allan Holdsworth....

 

[JoeyInCali]

This actually is more in tune (pun kind of intended) with solid body electric guitar construction. For example, with a Gibson Les Paul, if it were just solid mahogany and humbuckers were used, it could have a "muddy" sound. Though some may call it "warm" and "womanly." Gibson caps the mahogany with maple, which helps brighten up the sound, accentuate the trebles more. Or use P90 pickups which add a bit of brightness. On the other end of the spectrum would be a solid maple body... to some it may be too bright and shrill, especially paired with single coil pickups. But it can be toned down with humbuckers, which can bleed off some treble, while still have a cutting edge sound - a combination used by many metal players.

The typical EVH guitars are basswood with a maple cap. Steve Vai's "Meanie Greenie" was actually a solid basswood Charvel, but chosen because basswood tends to "choke" notes, which is a good thing for someone like Vai who plays warp speed. Same for the late great Allan Holdsworth....

And to some extent, those old house cues.
Braz cherry, purpleheart and Philippine Mahogany bottom spliced into maple front.
Some even had gaboon ebony. :frown:
I have two cut down Dufferins here with ebony bottom.

 

[skins]

I guess one side effect of this discussion, and experience bestowed within this thread, would be for those who still dont understand the significance towards the contribution of a cues hit due to the methods and materials used in it's butt construction. :idea:

Thanks everyone!

:thumbup:

 

[Bumlak]

Tone matching is also prevalent in the building of drums. As Eric Crisp hit on previously, we use dissimilar woods to brighten the tone of the drum shell. I built a 6 ply once when I worked for Wilson Customs which was 3 plys of maple and 3 plys of bubinga with a Birch reinforcement ring. Solid bubinga would sound completely dull and lifeless (as would plys to some point) though it would have made one hell of a suspended concert bass drum (albeit expensive.) Adding the maple plys between each bubinga ply livened up the tone and brought the drums back into a workable tuning range. Because we can't remove wood in building shells (lest we weaken the entire shell wall,) we HAVE to tone match. I had never really thought anyone thought about cues this way until I visited with Eric. That's why I love visiting cue makers. I'm so new to it that the learning is exciting.

Erich

 

[pescadoman]

Again, theories are nice.
Mock-ups are cheap and easy to do ( relatively speaking ) . And well worth it.
Make 'em.

One person used to ask me a ton of questions on how to make things and how they were. He talked to way too many makers. He'd shop the info around. One day I was screaming at him and asking why he would bother calling me and asking me if he's going to be calling others and asking what they think as well.
He once told me the veneers were mitered at 87*. Not 90*. I asked how he knew that when he wasn't mitering veneers yet. Yup, he heard it and it was the gist because he heard about it . And he knew that was accurate before doing it.
He told me one famous maker was using penetrating epoxy as base coat.
Unknown to him, I already tried it and decided to never touch the thing because it was freaking more toxic than nelsonite. It smelled like crap. I told him to go ahead do it if he pleases.

Nothing is proven until you prove it to yourself.

The late Indian Larry said it best when he talked about making custom bikes.
" The more you know, the less you know." When you discover new things, it makes you realize you don't know as much as you think.

Does his name start with a T?