Matching up APA handicap logic, thoughts?

S

Shooter1

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In APA 9-ball, I believe the handicaps run from one to nine. When matching up players, what logic do you use? For instance, if one teams best player is a very solid 9, and the other teams best player is a pretty solid 7, do you match them up or do you sacrifice a lower handicap player on the nine and maybe save the 7 for another 7 or 6 if possible?

One of the teams I'm on tries to match up fairly close in h/c; if they throw a 5, we throw a 4, 5 or 6. I know much of it depends on how fair people are handicapped and how well you know the other players true speeds. Also is it best to have the opposing team declare their player first if possible?

Just looking for a few thoughts on matching up that I could discuss with the head cheese of the team.

Thanks
 
During the regular season I typically just try and match handicaps as close as possible unless I know the other team and their handicaps. If I know the players on the other team well I may mix it up. For example I may undercut a real good player/high handicap with a low number instead of matching up a higher number against them. Why have my best player in a coin flip match when he is a guaranteed win against anyone else?

Once playoffs start I play my best lineup and I typically throw up first so I can control the last 2 matches. I will usually throw out my best low handicap to start the match and go from there. This has worked well for me as my teams made it to Vegas in 2014 and 2015.
 
Posting in a handicapped pool league requires as much strategy as when playing the game. It is foolish to post equal handicaps for opponents........... it lacks imagination and you are selling your team short. If you want to be mister nice guy.......... you will never get to Vegas.

If you have a good 4 or 5 he can beat an 8 or 9........ it all depends how the game unfolds.......... it your opponent posts an 8 and they only have 3 and 4 left........... why the hell would you post an 8 against him???? Post the 3 and save your 8 for a later match that will gain some points..............

think before you post

Kim
 
Guess I have to bookmark this:
I was asked last night if I would take over as captain of our team (and this is basically my 1st season). It seems the current captain is now retired, and planning on traveling. The co-captain is probably taking the next season/session off to get some stuff done in real-life.

Hell - I don't even know how to keep score. But - nobody else on the team wants the responsibility for the paperwork and money and such. Guess I have a lot to learn in the next couple months. Sigh ...
 
Ched said:
Guess I have to bookmark this:
I was asked last night if I would take over as captain of our team (and this is basically my 1st season). It seems the current captain is now retired, and planning on traveling. The co-captain is probably taking the next season/session off to get some stuff done in real-life.

Hell - I don't even know how to keep score. But - nobody else on the team wants the responsibility for the paperwork and money and such. Guess I have a lot to learn in the next couple months. Sigh ...
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I have been the captain of 3 teams for the past 6 years. Feel free to ask me anything ...anytime. I can tell you what works for me. Been to Vegas one time and just knocked a team that has been to Vegas the last 2 years in a row out of our city qualifier.

As to the question of how to match up to an 8 or 9. I would rather throw a 5. Guess I am partial to 5's . My 9 ball team was made up of 5..5..5. 5. 4..4..3. I like playing 5..5..5..5..3

I was raised to a 6 recently but can still play 6...5..5..4..3 if I play a team that has a 7 or higher I usually throw a 4 or 5 depending on if I decide to play or not. I use my 3 again their lowest player...usually a 2 and use the other 5's for the rest of the low level players on the opposing team.I dont like matching up 4's or 5's against 2's cause anything can happen. A good 5 can keep it close against 7's or higher and keep you in the game.
 
During the regular season its just about handicap management. Preventing players from going up. Not necessarily about sandbagging as in keeping the winning lineup together. During the Playoffs it all a gamble. But the idea is from my experience is to put your best 3 up first. Meaning you put the solid playing players in the first three slots, with your best player in the 3 slot (typically your highest rated). If you win the first 2, then you best player can close out the match. If you lose the first 2, he will be your best chance to get back into the match. If you split, he is the best player to put you one up. Other matchup ideas aren't as consistent in my opinion.

+1: When player stats were more robust and available, I was able to put together a spreadsheet on each player in the league and get an estimate of their "sandbagging" rating. It helped us put up the proper player against those and match up stronger against the other players from that team.
 
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Skratch said:
During the regular season its just about handicap management. Preventing players from going up. Not necessarily about sandbagging as in keeping the winning lineup together. During the Playoffs it all a gamble. But the idea is from my experience is to put your best 3 up first. Meaning you put the solid playing players in the first three slots, with your best player in the 3 slot (typically your highest rated). If you win the first 2, then you best player can close out the match. If you lose the first 2, he will be your best chance to get back into the match. If you split, he is the best player to put you one up. Other matchup ideas aren't as consistent in my opinion.

+1: When player stats were more robust and available, I was able to put together a spreadsheet on each player in the league and get an estimate of their "sandbagging" rating. It helped us put up the proper player against those and match up stronger against the other players from that team.
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I have posted the same thing on here before about handicap management. I was told it was sandbagging lol.

I have a new player that moved to our area and started right before cutoff last session. He was a 5/4. Halfway through his first 9 ball match I thought...dang he could be a 5 /5 easy. Sure enough he was raised and went on to an 83% win record last season.

I knew he was approaching s/l 6 territory and started throwing him again the best on the other team...guys I usually play. He has lost 6 in a row on the 2 teams I am captain of.

I play on another team I am not captain and was asked to help find a replacement for a 6 that quit. I got this boy on there. Well last week the captain or I were not there and the co captain...a friggin 3 throws my player against a guy who just joined and barely knows which end of the cue is which. Well my boy skunks him and goes up to a 6.

Although I think apa in general has a good handicapping system here is where I have a problem with it.

My 5 has played 6's and 7's and has lost 6 in a row. He skunks a nobody and is raised to a 6.

Now I know he was on the threshold of being raised due to an 83 % win record but beating the crap outa a nobody should not be what pushes you over the threshold. In other words beating the crap outa a new player should not make you a 6 . If you cant beat a 6 when you are a 5 how in the heck can you beat one playing even ?
 
2 things- it depends on the situation how you match up- sometimes it makes sense to throw a sacrificial 2 or 3 and sometimes it makes sense to throw a good 5. That being said, if the 5 wins against a 9 don't expect him to remain a 5 for long.

Now in answer to your actual question- a solid 9 is kind of rare. A solid 9 should be able to string racks together on a regular basis. Being a 9 in 9ball isn't the same as being a 7 in 8ball. There are plenty of mediocre 7s in 8ball. I have rarely seen a mediocre 9.

You also have to consider that the 9 is good enough to be worth throwing in a match. Meaning you are sacrificing throwing a 5 and 4 or 6 and 3 just for one person. In order for it to make sense the 9 has to win big.
 
Years ago, I always preferred and played in the singles competition as I dislike all the handicap games/BS that's played in team play but it's part of the gig. I am preparing to play in an APA team state tournament with a relatively new team and was looking for some match-up thoughts to help out the captain.

Thanks for the replies thus far, some good info.
 
"Handicap management" = sandbagging = cheating. I would never play on a team that required this kind of playing behavior. To me it's no different than the guy who won't call a foul on himself...'cause the other guy didn't see it! :mad: Get out there and play your best game...ALWAYS!...whatever league you play in. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

lorider said:
I have posted the same thing on here before about handicap management. I was told it was sandbagging lol.
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Here is an APA video on how to score 9-ball along with written instructions for 9-ball score keeping. If you have questions afterwards, please feel free to ask what you don't understand. I'll try my best to answer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-shuWUHS1g

http://poolplayers.com/pdf/9-BallScorekeeping.pdf

APA 9-ball, for me it helped to refer to my teammates not as SL2, SL3, SL4, SL5, SL6, but as 19, 25, 31, 38, and 46 (the number of balls needed to make) to visualize potential match-ups. The lower levels, the difference is usually half a rack (6 balls), while higher levels like SL9 vs SL8 is 10 balls (full rack).

YMMV, teams that try to match up evenly are usually more on the social, and less on the cut-throat spectrum. Meaning if you put out a SL7, they'll try to match it rather than put up a SL2.

As captain or co-captain find out if your LO offer bonus points for filling in the score sheets correctly. The second APA league I played offered this, and after the night was over the captains would insist of going over the scoresheets to make sure we matched, so we would both get the bonus points. I used to keep a spare pen and correction tape in my cue case to fix mistakes. I also used to keep an extra blank copy of the scoresheet if I had to re-do it from scratch.

Does your league travel to different location every week? If so, make sure you have spare chalk (and expect to lose/swipe ) and a moose head bridge. Not every location have bridges and chalk.


Ched said:
Guess I have to bookmark this:
I was asked last night if I would take over as captain of our team (and this is basically my 1st season). It seems the current captain is now retired, and planning on traveling. The co-captain is probably taking the next season/session off to get some stuff done in real-life.

Hell - I don't even know how to keep score. But - nobody else on the team wants the responsibility for the paperwork and money and such. Guess I have a lot to learn in the next couple months. Sigh ...
Click to expand...
 
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Scott Lee said:
"Handicap management" = sandbagging = cheating. I would never play on a team that required this kind of playing behavior. To me it's no different than the guy who won't call a foul on himself...'cause the other guy didn't see it! :mad: Get out there and play your best game...ALWAYS!...whatever league you play in. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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The boy does play his best every match and actually enjoys playing better players for the experience.

He believes like so many posters on this board....to be a better player you need to play better players. He would rather lose a close game to a 6 than beat the crap out if a 4.....like he has been doing .

I keep tabs of my players stats and believe the following to be true.

1. Matching a player up in a game he probably will not win is not cheating or sandbagging ...as long as that player plays his....or her best.

2. A 5 beating the crap out of a player that barely knows which end of a cue is which dont make you a 6.

3. If a 5 cannot beat a 6 with the spot he is given cannot compete when th a 6 playing even . I became a 6 by beating 6's and above . If my player cant do it when i match him up against them I am not going to let him be raised to a 6 by beating the crap out of low level players.

4. In my opinion the apa handicapping system does a great job but I think it is flawed by not taking the level of your opponents into consideration.

5. How I match him up is no different than dumping a 2 on a high level player to be him out of the way so hopefully your other players can win their matches.

Again...in my opinion ...none of the above leads to cheating or sandbagging.
 
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