Question About Deliberate Practice for Experienced Instructors

[BasementDweller]

So my friend, you are calling some great doctors wrong?
Explain to us your background in sports training, please.
Or are you speaking as a pool player.

By the way, I believe that most pro sports feature two-a-day workouts.

Interested
randyg

Let's not bother with the worthless appeals to authority but instead just let our words and thoughts speak for themselves. That's pretty much what I do with everyone on here.

You said 2 twenty minutes sessions a day would be perfect. So would that mean 3 twenty minutes sessions would be too much?

My point is I think many of the instructors on here underestimate the value of table time, especially for players at lower skill levels. The basic thinking is that once a player is on the table too long they will begin to get sloppy and develop bad habits. Instructors at this point say play becomes detrimental to improvement. I tend to believe that the value of hitting balls on a table is not a binary thing, but instead it follows more of a bell curve. So while some instructors preach it's "perfect practice that makes perfect", I see this as an impossibility.

How else are we to understand how all of our present and past champions could spend so many countless hours on a pool table? Doesn't that totally run contrary to today's "perfect practice" mantra that we all hear about regularly? There's something that we are missing.

So while I admit that this is just conjecture on my part and it would certainly need to be studied to gain some clarity, we all know that this is not going to happen anytime soon in the world of pool. So all we can do at the present time is converse about it.

 

[goettlicher]

Let's not bother with the worthless appeals to authority but instead just let our words and thoughts speak for themselves. That's pretty much what I do with everyone on here.

You said 2 twenty minutes sessions a day would be perfect. So would that mean 3 twenty minutes sessions would be too much?

My point is I think many of the instructors on here underestimate the value of table time, especially for players at lower skill levels. The basic thinking is that once a player is on the table too long they will begin to get sloppy and develop bad habits. Instructors at this point say play becomes detrimental to improvement. I tend to believe that the value of hitting balls on a table is not a binary thing, but instead it follows more of a bell curve. So while some instructors preach it's "perfect practice that makes perfect", I see this as an impossibility.

How else are we to understand how all of our present and past champions could spend so many countless hours on a pool table? Doesn't that totally run contrary to today's "perfect practice" mantra that we all hear about regularly? There's something that we are missing.

So while I admit that this is just conjecture on my part and it would certainly need to be studied to gain some clarity, we all know that this is not going to happen anytime soon in the world of pool. So all we can do at the present time is converse about it.

One of the unsaid things is the time frame.
Perfect Practice cuts down the 10 year curve to maybe a couple of years.
Improvement comes from understanding our weaknesses. Playing highlights those weaknesses. Practice is suppose to eliminate them.

The human brain can only handle so much intense training, then it regresses.
Two-a-days is good for Brain & Body.

BUT....playing is a hell of lot more fun than training.

Thanks
randyg

 

[boyersj]

I am going to poke my nose in here just because I feel I have a rather interesting perspective. Also this will be long and detailed because I am a manufacturing engineer and details are just what we do

In 2009 - 2010, I was playing quite a bit of pool (30-40 hours a week) and was playing what most people considered well, probably B+/A- level for those who use those grades on here.

Anyhow, I got into a relationship and bought a home and my table time was diminished, even though I now had my own table at home (funny how that works).
I was approached by a new to pool player to be a partner and I began to teach him what I knew... but I noticed I continued to hit a ceiling no matter how much table time I was getting.

I am going to make some references to an older thread, which can be seen here:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=300448&nojs=1#goto_share

So I began reading the instructor threads and several people were posting their videos for critique. I followed, and you can see what happened in that thread.

So I became an instructor and have provided this service to about 60 players in the past 4-5 years.
I was so busy working with other players and my teammates that I never sat down and did a solid month of dedicated training to truly nail my fundamentals.

I would go through periods of able to play just a few hours a week and up to 20+ hours a week,
and my fundamentals would be better than when I first took my certification lesson but not where i knew they should have been.

In February of 2016 I played an extended match against another player who was very near my ability level, just to get a litmus test of where I was at.
I lost the match but I had a close friend take careful notes of what they saw. This was going to be my base-point for my focused effort to improve my fundamentals.

I took a week to evaluate my stroke report card and customized a training session that I would follow for the week that would take about 25 minutes,
of which the first 5 minutes was a free play warm up and stretch period. I had 5 drills that I used during this time, provided to me during my certification lesson.
Primary focus was developing a solid mantra, controlling the cue with a repeatable stroke, an eye pattern drill along with an alignment and speed drill.

These drills were not all performed every day, and after the first week I decided my mantra needed some adjustment and that my fairly generic mantra was preventing
the subconscious transition of my fundamentals. I typed my notes and decided it was time to really zero into my mantra to get my body motions in tune with my natural timing.
I spent two weeks analyzing my motions, using a metronome to determine my timing and generate a rhythm.
I documented it, this all still part of the 20 minutes of training along with 5 minutes of free play. At the end of the second week I had a mantra that was all encompassing and rock solid.

Then 3 weeks later I ruptured my distal tendon and had surgery to reconnect, that resulted in several months of not playing.
During this time we were bringing in a BCA pool league so my focus again wasn't on my game.

However once the league launch had stabilized this spring, and a work project finished up a couple weeks ago I was able to start playing again this past week to prepare for
a high quality local tournament this past weekend (I got 13th - 16th after two months inactive play, after 2 days practice) and the upcoming BCA nationals.
The work I did last spring allowed for a quick return to form because I identified all my weak fundamentals and properly addressed them.

Sorry for such a long story but its all very honest. I will say, 20 minutes twice a day isn't enough to address confidence - which is why GOOD players have to play a lot,
even with strong fundamentals confidence can be fragile with little table time. 20 minutes twice is day absolutely will allow permanent changes to our fundamentals.
I have been putting off posting an updated video but I will do so after the upcoming trip to Las Vegas.

I can't wait to see everyone there!

 

[FranCrimi]

Oh and just to add a little more background....

I can't quote the instructor or the post but I recall a conversation on AZ about this topic and a well known instructor mentioned something along the lines of a player would benefit more from practicing a couple ten minute sessions a day than they would from playing the ghost for 8 to 10 hours a day (I don't recall the exact times) and many agreed with this point of view.

So what's being missed? I'm not exactly sure, but the real world evidence of this can not be found in our game. The truly great players have all gone through a period of YEARS where they played up to 8 to 10 hours a day. Many of them have stated they never even really did drills. Now I suspect this doesn't mean they never worked on specific shots but they are thinking of more setup type specific drill work. Here I could be wrong.

And another thought: I don't think you can reach the top simply by drilling your way there through 20 minute practice sessions built upon each other, but I do think some players have gotten there without any drill work whatsoever, but instead by being TOTALLY IMMERSED in the game. These guys (and gals) get totally mesmerized by the game, losing track of time and space, and just play for hours on end, continuously, day after day.

So what I think happens in this forum quite often is the importance of the long session, non-stop, subconscious play is downplayed in favor of the short duration drill work. Of course this makes sense, because it's much more appealing to us players to think if we just focus for a few minutes a day we can work our way to the top.

I was going to post something similar to this but then I came across yours. Great post.

To the OP: If you really want to get good at this game then you have to join the sub-culture. You can't get good in a bubble all by yourself. You have to eat it, drink it, and sleep it and do it along with others who eat it, drink it, and sleep it.

You need to become a regular in a pool room where there are real players, and pay attention to the better players. Study them, listen to them and learn from them. Ask questions.

And you have to play. You have to play game, after game, after game, and just when you're too tired to continue, you have to play one more game.

Once you start to learn who you are on the table and what you need to fix, then you can start to set up drills and exercises for yourself to fix your flaws.

You can also go the academic route, where you put yourself through a school type thing with organized practice sessions and drills, etc. You'll improve, but I'm not all that sure how much because in the end, you're going to have to be comfortable in the playing environment. When the day comes when you can walk into any pool room, play on any table in front of strangers, and feel at ease, then you're on your way.

 

[BasementDweller]

Just when you got me backpedaling and trying to soften my stance you say the following:

...
Perfect Practice cuts down the 10 year curve to maybe a couple of years.
...

Um....which ten year learning curve are you referring to? The one where you fumble around playing league pool with your buddies for ten years while climbing still just a few rungs away from the top of the ladder? Or are you referring to the best of the best? Because there's no way you're cutting that down to 2 years. I would love for someone to actually point to someone who has done this and I'm not talking about Johnny so and so down at the local watering hole who has only been at it for a couple of years and he can beat all the regulars.

So now I'm back to square one.

 

[BasementDweller]

I was going to post something similar to this but then I came across yours. Great post.

To the OP: If you really want to get good at this game then you have to join the sub-culture. You can't get good in a bubble all by yourself. You have to eat it, drink it, and sleep it and do it along with others who eat it, drink it, and sleep it.

You need to become a regular in a pool room where there are real players, and pay attention to the better players. Study them, listen to them and learn from them. Ask questions.

And you have to play. You have to play game, after game, after game, and just when you're too tired to continue, you have to play one more game.

Once you start to learn who you are on the table and what you need to fix, then you can start to set up drills and exercises for yourself to fix your flaws.

You can also go the academic route, where you put yourself through a school type thing with organized practice sessions and drills, etc. You'll improve, but I'm not all that sure how much because in the end, you're going to have to be comfortable in the playing environment. When the day comes when you can walk into any pool room, play on any table in front of strangers, and feel at ease, then you're on your way.

Great post Fran. It's nice knowing I'm not all alone.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Great post Fran. It's nice knowing I'm not all alone.

It was said that Shane got his great break by working on it 8 hours a day.

I wonder how many players out there could even come close to replicating his break with only two 20 minute practice sessions/day.

 

[BeiberLvr]

By the way, I believe that most pro sports feature two-a-day workouts.

randyg

I bet those workouts are longer than 20 minutes.

Not to mention

Team practices/scrimmages
Individual drills
Weight room
Video review
Playbook review

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Oh and just to add a little more background....

I can't quote the instructor or the post but I recall a conversation on AZ about this topic and a well known instructor mentioned something along the lines of a player would benefit more from practicing a couple ten minute sessions a day than they would from playing the ghost for 8 to 10 hours a day (I don't recall the exact times) and many agreed with this point of view.

So what's being missed? I'm not exactly sure, but the real world evidence of this can not be found in our game. The truly great players have all gone through a period of YEARS where they played up to 8 to 10 hours a day. Many of them have stated they never even really did drills. Now I suspect this doesn't mean they never worked on specific shots but they are thinking of more setup type specific drill work. Here I could be wrong.

And another thought: I don't think you can reach the top simply by drilling your way there through 20 minute practice sessions built upon each other, but I do think some players have gotten there without any drill work whatsoever, but instead by being TOTALLY IMMERSED in the game. These guys (and gals) get totally mesmerized by the game, losing track of time and space, and just play for hours on end, continuously, day after day.

So what I think happens in this forum quite often is the importance of the long session, non-stop, subconscious play is downplayed in favor of the short duration drill work. Of course this makes sense, because it's much more appealing to us players to think if we just focus for a few minutes a day we can work our way to the top.

You make very good points here. I think there are different "programs" for different students, though.

A shortstop player who decides to play (and practice) 10 hours daily, 6 or 7 days per week, is different than the more casual player whose game has reached a plateau of frustration and wants to put it an hour here or there of focus time.

Students who aren't already strong are going to get those kinds of short session drills from me first, to bring them up towards their potential--which gives them a better shot at wanting to put in the long, hard hours for true greatness.

 

[FranCrimi]

Great post Fran. It's nice knowing I'm not all alone.

You're definitely not alone. I used to rush to Chelsea Billiards after work every day and couldn't wait to play. One time I was so anxious to get there that I parked my car in front at 7PM and ran in to play, forgetting to shut off the engine. The car was still running with the doors unlocked at 3AM when I returned. 8 Hours of playing was not an unusual thing.

 

[BC21]

You're definitely not alone. I used to rush to Chelsea Billiards after work every day and couldn't wait to play. One time I was so anxious to get there that I parked my car in front at 7PM and ran in to play, forgetting to shut off the engine. The car was still running with the doors unlocked at 3AM when I returned. 8 Hours of playing was not an unusual thing.

That's a great story! My wife asked me years ago how I can play pool for hours, or often all day Saturday and into Sunday evening. I told her when I'm really hitting the balls well I don't want to quit, and if not hitting them very well I don't want to quit until I start playing better. It's a catch 22 of course, but I've always been that way since I was about 16 -- hooked for life.

 

[GoldCrown]

Always keep your practice routines to about 20 minutes. Two a day would be perfect.

randyg

Works for me...keeps the drill interesting.

 

[BasementDweller]

That's a great story! My wife asked me years ago how I can play pool for hours, or often all day Saturday and into Sunday evening. I told her when I'm really hitting the balls well I don't want to quit, and if not hitting them very well I don't want to quit until I start playing better. It's a catch 22 of course, but I've always been that way since I was about 16 -- hooked for life.

And maybe this is the key to the riddle that I'm trying to solve.

Maybe there are skills that are individually desirable but to put it bluntly -- they are boring, and for these types of skills practicing in short increments is necessary. But for those tasks that are enjoyable, where the mind and body is constantly engaged -- practice times can and possibly should be -- much longer. This would explain the worthiness of all the time SVB spent on his break as BeiberLvr pointed out. Stephen Curry is probably the greatest shooter in the history of the NBA and what does he do in the off season? Every day he shoots until he makes 500 3 pointers, or at least he did at one time. What he doesn't do is shoot 3's for a two 20 minute sessions.

At the very least shouldn't instructors be encouraging players to work on their weaknesses for as long as they can possibly endure it while taking frequent breaks to reset their mind and body, as opposed to saying -- well, just do 2 twenty minute sessions a day and that should cover it?

 

[BasementDweller]

Oh my goodness this post was right under my nose (from another thread) and I didn't read it until just now.

Scott Lee said:

Tom...What you're doing is total overkill. You can accomplish better results (and it takes a heck of a lot shorter time period) by focusing like you are, but limiting it to 50 shots, instead of 1000. The brain begins to fatigue quickly after about 20 minutes. Super repetition is counter productive to quality learning. The best practice sessions are 20 minutes, twice a day...once you understand what you're trying to practice, why you're practicing it, and having a way to measure your improvement/results. ALWAYS finish up a disciplined practice session with some free play afterwards. This can be just shooting balls, play a match with an opponent, playing the ghost, etc.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Good thing SVB didn't read this before he mastered his break, or Stephen Curry with his jump shot, or Tiger Woods and his putter.

 

[GoldCrown]

just do 2 twenty minute sessions a day and that should cover it?

As a student of the game and follower of Scott (and Randy's) SPF yes to the 20 minutes. 20 minutes of quality practice beats getting tired and sloppy.
Also I'm 70(no senior jokes please) and short sessions are perfect for me and they are working. I'm an average player. I'm just interested in playing a respectable game with the intent of constant improvement. Let's be real...some swear by HAMB and some don't...what ever works....but let's not bash or argue what is right or wrong. We can practice long sessions until we get it right or keep making the same mistakes over and over for hours and hours. 20 minutes sounds like a good start for a person trying to learn fundamentals and various drills.

 

[GoldCrown]

Good thing SVB didn't read this before he mastered his break, or Stephen Curry with his jump shot, or Tiger Woods and his putter.

You left out Larry Bird. He was the first in-last out from practice....But what does this have to do with a person trying to learn proper pool habits.

 

[BeiberLvr]

I wonder how good of a guitarist I'd be if I only practiced 20 minutes a day when I first started learning.

 

[BC21]

And maybe this is the key to the riddle that I'm trying to solve.

Maybe there are skills that are individually desirable but to put it bluntly -- they are boring, and for these types of skills practicing in short increments is necessary. But for those tasks that are enjoyable, where the mind and body is constantly engaged -- practice times can and possibly should be -- much longer. This would explain the worthiness of all the time SVB spent on his break as BeiberLvr pointed out. Stephen Curry is probably the greatest shooter in the history of the NBA and what does he do in the off season? Every day he shoots until he makes 500 3 pointers, or at least he did at one time. What he doesn't do is shoot 3's for a two 20 minute sessions.

At the very least shouldn't instructors be encouraging players to work on their weaknesses for as long as they can possibly endure it while taking frequent breaks to reset their mind and body, as opposed to saying -- well, just do 2 twenty minute sessions a day and that should cover it?

A great little book titled, The Little Book of Talent, by Daniel Coyle, says there are Hard skills and Soft skills. Hard skills are the fundamentals, the body movements in any sport or activity that must be learned and perfected to the point of machine-like consistency. These skills are best perfected in short practice sessions geared toward working on one small element at a time.

Soft skills are considered to be the conscious process of pattern recognition and creative thinking. This is where the long practice sessions come in handy.

A musician can learn the fundamentals, the hard skills of playing an instrument, in a short amount of time. But the soft skills of musical interpretation, feeling/emotion, an individual playing style, etc....that can take years to develop. A pool player can have excellent hard skills and perfect and retain them with short little practice sessions. But the same player would have to spend many hours playing the game and analyzing other players before the soft skills become a fluent part of their game. And I don't think watching other players should be restricted to only watching better players. Even watching a weaker player can give you great insight on what works and what doesn't in certain situations. The key is probably to not watch in a passive manner, but to pay attention and watch with curiosity and wonderment.

 

[BC21]

I wonder how good of a guitarist I'd be if I only practiced 20 minutes a day when I first started learning.

Honestly, 5 minutes two or three times a day on a certain difficult lick does wonders, more so than playing the lick over and over for 3 hours on a Saturday afternoon. Those little 5 min sessions will have you jamming that lick with 2 or 3 days. I used to start beginning guitarists on nothing but holding chords. I'd say hold this C chord until your fingers get so sore you can't hold it any longer. A couple of hours later, before bed, do it again. While watching your favorite TV show, hold the chord during commercial breaks. Do all the basic chords this way for a week, then we'll work on playing the guitar.

 

[GoldCrown]

Honestly, 5 minutes two or three times a day on a certain difficult lick does wonders, more so than playing the lick over and over for 3 hours on a Saturday afternoon. Those little 5 min sessions will have you jamming that lick with 2 or 3 days. I used to start beginning guitarists on nothing but holding chords. I'd say hold this C chord until your fingers get so sore you can't hold it any longer. A couple of hours later, before bed, do it again. While watching your favorite TV show, hold the chord during commercial breaks. Do all the basic chords this way for a week, then we'll work on playing the guitar.

Since we shifted to Guitars. WES MONTGOMERY. Beatle music? Wes Montgomery. His album A Day in the Life is classic...thats if you like jazz guitar.