C'mon, this is pool we are talking about. Shady is taken for granted. If you do nice work you can adopt unconscionable business practices and if you are called on it a legion of defenders will arise. Just read one of the many threads about noted cue makers screwing over customers and all the excuse-makers they bring out.
Turning Stone - rip off
- Thread starter cleary
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C'mon, this is pool we are talking about. Shady is taken for granted. If you do nice work you can adopt unconscionable business practices and if you are called on it a legion of defenders will arise. Just read one of the many threads about noted cue makers screwing over customers and all the excuse-makers they bring out.
The flight from Buffalo to Austin was purchased at a different time and I still could have flown there the next morning, it just didn't work timing wise for me. So instead, I paid for a different flight straight to Austin from DC. So, it wasn't them not fulfilling the contract. They could have got me there, just later than I needed. They just do things to make the customer happy, maybe because they see I fly their airline very often.
In your example of Justin Beiber... if I bought tickets and didn't show up, they know I didn't cross the gate and then sold my seats to someone else... that would be an unethical business practice. I wouldn't expect a refund, if there was a no refund policy. I would however expect them to not double dip and get paid twice.
I'm not mentally challenged, I just seem to have higher moral and ethical standards than most on this forum. Again, it's the pool world so the bar is low.
Finally Lyn you admit that Zuglan is taking advantage of the situation.
Now we are getting somewhere.
And I understand that most likely Zuglan is your friend, but it is ok to tell your friend they are wrong.
kissed,
I'm sure right now Mike Zuglan is shaking in his boots over Cleary's accusations. Notice Andrew never played at TS? Yet he feels he has the right to question MZ's business plan. Wonder how many of the posters who joined Cleary ever played at TS. I have. Many times. One trip will convince you of the benefits of Mike's rigid rules package. Fair to all.
Years ago when Mike used a separate tournament director, I was scheduled to play Busti in North Providence, RI. When the match was called, Busti was no where to be found. Well over an hour later, he came back from dinner. Never said anything to anyone. He just left. Sat and waited for the match because the TD refused to forfeit him. Today, he would be gone. Mike would never allow that to happen. He is as straight arrow as they get. All the more power to him.
Lyn
I don't have a clue what you do for a living but does your job involve contracts in any way? Did you ask/check before sending your entry-fee what the refund(or lack thereof) policy was? Or did you just assume that a refund would be issued in case you couldn't attend? If you did ask then you knew going in their policy and if not, making such an assumption was kinda foolish.
Look, I don't like that stupid, idiotic, frigging, assine, ignorant rule in double elimination that the guy who remains on the winner's side never gets to lose. Instead, they play one extended race at the end. That sucks. It really is not fair.
But guess what? When I go to a tournament that has that rule, I have to accept it because I know going in that that's what the rule is.
It is okay for Cleary to not like the no-refund rule. That is his prerogative. He can express his disdain or dislike for the rule and not ever go to any Joss events.
If he went to a Joss event and then complained about it, that would be wrong. But he's not doing that. He does not like that rule. That is fine.
Mike Zuglan likes the rule. That is fine.
Let's move on now. Nothing more to see here.
But guess what? When I go to a tournament that has that rule, I have to accept it because I know going in that that's what the rule is.
It is okay for Cleary to not like the no-refund rule. That is his prerogative. He can express his disdain or dislike for the rule and not ever go to any Joss events.
If he went to a Joss event and then complained about it, that would be wrong. But he's not doing that. He does not like that rule. That is fine.
Mike Zuglan likes the rule. That is fine.
Let's move on now. Nothing more to see here.
Delta did not get you where you needed to be by the time you needed to be there. They did not get you there when they said they would. They broke the contract and cost you money. They did not do it just to be nice or because of how you looked in your tiny basketball jersey.
I fly Southwest --- you can cancel 10 minutes before the flight and get a credit for a future flight, to be used in a year. I don't think SW could fill that seat within 10 minutes of taking off.
If I canceled a week before, I get my refund (credit) and they fill the seat most likely. But they aren't double dipping the seat.
Based on this logic he should have NEVER entered in the first place. I agree with you 100% that he has a right not to like the rule. But to go ahead and send in an entry and then get po'd because of the no refund policy is nuts.Look, I don't like that stupid, idiotic, frigging, assine, ignorant rule in double elimination that the guy who remains on the winner's side never gets to lose. Instead, they play one extended race at the end. That sucks. It really is not fair.
But guess what? When I go to a tournament that has that rule, I have to accept it because I know going in that that's what the rule is.
It is okay for Cleary to not like the no-refund rule. That is his prerogative. He can express his disdain or dislike for the rule and not ever go to any Joss events.
If he went to a Joss event and then complained about it, that would be wrong. But he's not doing that. He does not like that rule. That is fine.
Mike Zuglan likes the rule. That is fine.
Let's move on now. Nothing more to see here.
Steve,
If you asked Mike directly, I'm absolutely sure he would say I'm NOT his friend. Actually he does not like me. We have had many disagreements in the past. Despite that situation, I've played in way over 100 Joss Northeast events including many TS events. Never won one. I've already planned to attend more this fall. The $40 membership fee is more than reasonable. We also have a tour event at my home room East Ridge Billiards in Rochester, NY on the schedule for February 2018. Personalities aside, Mike does too much for pool. As is normal, there are people who would tear down anything that is not ABSOLUTELY in line with their thinking! As I've stated before, find someone with $25,000 willing to back you and then run your own event the way you want before complaining about Mike! Sorry Steve, that was not directed at you personally. Just a general statement about those who complain about how someone else is running something not to their liking.
Lyn
It is okay for Cleary to not like the no-refund rule. That is his prerogative. He can express his disdain or dislike for the rule and not ever go to any Joss events.
If he went to a Joss event and then complained about it, that would be wrong. But he's not doing that. He does not like that rule. That is fine.
Mike Zuglan likes the rule. That is fine.
Let's move on now. Nothing more to see here.
That is fine for Cleary to disagree with the rule, and to make his opinion known.
What is not fine, is for him to insist that he has 'higher moral and ethical standards' than everyone who disagrees with him. That is the problem that we have in America today... When a person or a group does not agree with an opinion, it's because they are 'stupid', or 'uneducated', 'ignorant', or have no morals..
Disagreeing with the opinion of others does not make you better than them. Insulting a person's moral and ethical standards is not acceptable.
Accept that you hold a different opinion, and move on. No insults necessary.
I wonder how many don't say something because they want to continue playing in the tournaments (need points). Maybe he's kinda got them by the balls?
Lyn - when the BCAPL was at the Riviera for years, I would ask Mark Griffin why the hell do you run the tourney in this place withthe worst customer serfvice in America. He would always reply, there is no where else in Vegas that will host us. Then low and behold, he moved out of the Riviera and went to the Rio. The APA went to Westgate.
My point is that things can get done. Do i have the time or desire to organize a pool tourney? No. Could I do it? Yes. I have had casinos approach me for the tour (outside of pool) that I run. I passed on them because I make money off of game play and if there is a casino, I know my game play will be down cause people woudl be spending a large % of their time at the tables. I would have to take some of the added money the casino gave me and put it in my pocket and not put it in the prize pool to make up for itl. I'm just not comfortable with that so I haven't pursued it further. Just like I don't take 10% out of the player auction at my events. Sure people do it, people know they are doing it, but it doesn't make it right.
I work on television and deal with contracts all the time. I've very familiar with how business works and how contracts work. I also know that sometimes you may not like the terms of a deal but you need to do the deal anyway, for different reasons.
You also clearly didn't read what I've posted because I've never played in this even, tried to play in this event or even given them my money. However, I know many who have and who have ended up needing to back out for various reasons. I know you're not understand this... and you probably never will but I'll try one more time... IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO ISSUE A REFUND (THAT'S FINE), DON'T RESELL THEIR SPOT. Reselling the spot is the shady part of this... If you want a full field and want to resell their spot, give them a refund or credit. One or the other.
False. If anything, I cost them money. But you're not going to get that.
Exactly. You can be transparent all you want about being shady, it's still shady. Pool players just don't seem to get that because it seems it's all they know.
After reading this whole thread, I can really see both sides. But in the end, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. The best thing to me would be to have no refunds after a certain published date before the tournament begins. I have no problems with filling the newly available spots with someone on the waiting list to ensure a full chart.
If part of the business plan is to count on a certain number of people dropping out each year so that added income can be generated, I think that it's not really a wise thing to do, but if the tournament keeps filling up each year, then I would say that the majority of people really don't care that much about it one way or the other.
If part of the business plan is to count on a certain number of people dropping out each year so that added income can be generated, I think that it's not really a wise thing to do, but if the tournament keeps filling up each year, then I would say that the majority of people really don't care that much about it one way or the other.
Transparently shady??? Is that like "jumbo shrimp" or "military intelligence"? Have you ever put a deposit down on an apt. or house? You know going in you're NOT getting it back and the landlord/realtor can use it to buy say, crack if they so choose. I don't like this policy but i was aware of it and still make the deposit. If i renege on the deal, on what planet should i deserve a refund? How is this pool tournament entry any different?
It matters not to most, but it matters to some. If I sold something to someone for $200 but he forgot to pick it up in a timely matter, and then calls me 5 weeks later for the product. Sorry, my policy is any unclaimed merchandise is forfeited in 30 days.
Yet, I would be able to not refund him anything and I still get to re-sell the product and pocket twice the money. Its policy and he can't complain too much. I still wouldn't sleep well doing it, but hey, that's just me. I can't fathom running any business in that manner, unless somehow, it was such a huge hardship.
The example would be the product may only have cost $200 but it took up 2 rooms of space that I could not store other items. But, if it were a cue, chalk or something that could just sit there, no harm, not much foul.
But, diff strokes for diff folks. Whad'ya gonna do?
Yet, I would be able to not refund him anything and I still get to re-sell the product and pocket twice the money. Its policy and he can't complain too much. I still wouldn't sleep well doing it, but hey, that's just me. I can't fathom running any business in that manner, unless somehow, it was such a huge hardship.
The example would be the product may only have cost $200 but it took up 2 rooms of space that I could not store other items. But, if it were a cue, chalk or something that could just sit there, no harm, not much foul.
But, diff strokes for diff folks. Whad'ya gonna do?