League players vs just players

[Poolplaya9]

Hnadicaps should always be set up so that the higher ranked player is the favorite, otherwise what is the point in getting better?

I have been saying the same thing for a while. While they aren't my personal preference, I absolutely see the point and necessity in having handicapped leagues and tournaments (along with non-handicapped ones of course). But if they make it a truly 50/50 proposition, the better players lose their benefit from being better (which I feel is something they should have) and the weaker players lose their incentive to improve (and they should have an incentive to improve).

For those events or leagues that are handicapped, the best way to do it all the way around IMO is to do it in a way where the better player still retains a little advantage. That way the better player still wins more often so they are receiving some reward for their superior skills, the lesser player still wins often enough to keep them interested and participating, and the lesser players still have incentive to improve so that they can someday have the advantage too. It is a good compromise where everybody gets most of what they want.

 

[Koop]

Steelers? :wink:

Not even remotely funny!

Ok, maybe a little

 

[hang-the-9]

I guess I would fit in the lazy category lol. I never practice.. Well let me rephrase that. There have been a few times when I lost an important match due to a shot or 2 I missed I would practice that shot until it was automatic .

Even if you don't practice much, if you are OK with how you play and accept loses to better players that DO practice and improve are are just better than you are now, I would not put in into the same group I saw. That was players that instead of actually working on the game wanted the better players to give up more games so they can win without the extra work needed to win. It's like having a job and instead of raising your performance to the top workers, you told the boss that those workers need to do double the work and harder work for the same pay and rating in reviews.

There is one younger kid that plays as a 4 when he really can be a 3 in our tournament, but he insists on playing as a 4 because he WANTS to be a 4 and works on his game, he does not want to win because it was made easy for him to win.

A few weeks ago my son and I got 1st and second, he got 3rd, I gave him the entry free back from our winnings, he deserved it even though he did not cash. I told him a few times he will be fine as a 3, but he does not want to go backwards. That I respect.

 

[Pushout]

Even if you don't practice much, if you are OK with how you play and accept loses to better players that DO practice and improve are are just better than you are now, I would not put in into the same group I saw. That was players that instead of actually working on the game wanted the better players to give up more games so they can win without the extra work needed to win. It's like having a job and instead of raising your performance to the top workers, you told the boss that those workers need to do double the work and harder work for the same pay and rating in reviews.

There is one younger kid that plays as a 4 when he really can be a 3 in our tournament, but he insists on playing as a 4 because he WANTS to be a 4 and works on his game, he does not want to win because it was made easy for him to win.

A few weeks ago my son and I got 1st and second, he got 3rd, I gave him the entry free back from our winnings, he deserved it even though he did not cash. I told him a few times he will be fine as a 3, but he does not want to go backwards. That I respect.

Great story about the kid! He's got the idea. I've seen so many league players that want their handicaps lowered rather than working on their own game and moving up. It's one of the things that has kept me out of leagues for years and years.

 

[lorider]

Great story about the kid! He's got the idea. I've seen so many league players that want their handicaps lowered rather than working on their own game and moving up. It's one of the things that has kept me out of leagues for years and years.

I can see both sides.....probably because I play league both ways.... Handicapped and masters .....the only true non handicapped league format that I know of.

I am.only an apa.5 bit I enjoy playing the best players in our area.....that play leagues at all in a non handicapped race to 7. On the other hand i also enjoy playing on a handicapped match where i do have a chance fo win....if i am playing at my skill.level that particular match.

I believe as some have said that started this thread due fo the fact o am probably playing too much and am getting burnt out..

Seriously thinking about dropping one of my 2 apa teams that i am captain of. Pluses and minuses to dropping either one..

drop Sunday night double jeapordy team that i have been captain of for 6 years.

Plus.....eliminate playing 3 nights in a row
Plus...play 2 nights in a row.off 1 night....play Thursday then off 3 nights in a row

Plus....give me all weekend free except for once a month masters

Minus....will lose playing 8 ball since we play both 8 and 9 that night
Minus...will lose a chance to make 8 ball ltc
Minus....will lose the better over all team
Minus....have to come into town any way on Sunday once a month to play masters

Drop Thursday which is 9 ball only

Plus... off
4 nights in a row.

Minus.....cant think of any minuses
Well maybe the fact I would have to play 3 nights in a row and lose playing with a few people I really like.

I just joined tap and usapl recently and really enjoy both so I don't see dropping either one ....plus I am not the captain of either team so no.pressure there. What I did was drop apa those nights to join these leagues. I was asked to put together a team for each league but I told both lo's aint no way that's happening lol.

It was hard enough to drop the Friday night apa team I was captain of for 4 years bit I really think I need to drop this Thursday apa team.

 

[808billiards]

“Champions do not become champions when they win the event, but in the hours, weeks, months and years they spend preparing for it. The victorious performance itself is merely the demonstration of their championship character”

 

[Get_A_Grip]

I have been saying the same thing for a while. While they aren't my personal preference, I absolutely see the point and necessity in having handicapped leagues and tournaments (along with non-handicapped ones of course). But if they make it a truly 50/50 proposition, the better players lose their benefit from being better (which I feel is something they should have) and the weaker players lose their incentive to improve (and they should have an incentive to improve).



For those events or leagues that are handicapped, the best way to do it all the way around IMO is to do it in a way where the better player still retains a little advantage. That way the better player still wins more often so they are receiving some reward for their superior skills, the lesser player still wins often enough to keep them interested and participating, and the lesser players still have incentive to improve so that they can someday have the advantage too. It is a good compromise where everybody gets most of what they want.

The league I'm in uses 80% of everyone's average to determine the handicap. This still leaves enough gap from your average for the better player to use their better consistency to come out ahead most times.


_______

 

[Straightpool_99]

I guess I would fit in the lazy category lol. I never practice.. Well let me rephrase that. There have been a few times when I lost an important match due to a shot or 2 I missed I would practice that shot until it was automatic .

I will say that hang is right about most league players......hate to admit it lol. I have seen lately ...due to the fact that a few venues changed their policy and offer a couple hours free table time before league.....that quite a few show early and practice. Let me rephrase that.....banging balls. Very few actually do drills or practice shots they have trouble with..

Now even though I don't practice much I will be the first to admit it will make you a better shooter but it does not help you develop the mental toughness you need for a match.

I would like to share a story with you and will.try to make it as short as possible. I had a new guy Join my team a few sessions ago. Now this guy practiced religiously several nights a week. I dont mean bang balls. Doing all kinds of drills and the only league player I have ever seen practice cue ball control and position shots. He would lay a quarter on the table and practice 1 rail...2 rail and 3 rail and draw shots over and over until he could get the cue bal to stop at that quarter 10 times in a row. If he missed once he started over .

He was a pretty good player when he joined and the first match I saw he play I thought he could make a 6 with a little more practice.

Now as with some the better he got the bigger his ego got. Making it short. He challenged me races to 7 in 8 ..9 ..and 10 ball. I won 7-4..7-5..7-4. He still thought be was better than me...oh well . When 9 ball ltc came he lost 19-1 to a 3 and he disappeared and has not come back and never answered my calls. I guess that 3 busted his ego. What I am gettin at is all that practice did nothing to help prepare him for a lucky ass 3.

Trying to use an anology here and wish I could recall the exact words I read on here one time. Somethin like this. When asked about why he never practiced breaking boards Bruce lee replied...boards dont hit back. I guess I am trying to say when my former player did all that practicing no one was hitting back.

I guess a better analogy is ...you can run all the racks you want in your basement....dont mean nothing if you can't do it in a match.

I don't agree with this post. Look I'm no expert on APA or even handicap tournament play. We have one of those every week at my poolhall and I hardly ever play in them. When I do I tend to do well, but I don't really care that much, but I still think what I'm about to say applies.

The point is: No other sport or activity does things the way many pool players do things. Let's say you want to be, I don't know a good American Football player (the one thing I know even less about, lol): Nobody is going to tell you to only play games until you get better. You are going to work on your skills in segments. Tackling, throwing the ball, sprinting or whatever it is they do, lol. The reason "league only" players don't get better is that they never work on their weaknesses, because they don't have to. And they only play full games, where those aspects come up too rarely to actually learn from them. If you work on, say your draw shots for a week, you are going to progress more in that short time than you will a whole year of playing. What you learn will be better ingrained, so it will hold up under pressure as well. Sure, everybody chokes now and then, but practising in your basement or anywhere else won't make that happen more. Weak skills and lack of training will.

Developing mental toughness can only be done from within. If you practise without purpose, without pressure, you are doing it wrong! I can shoot stop shots and get so nervous I'm shaking all over, if I wanted to. It's all about the mind, setting a high standard for yourself and refusing to let up on it. I rarely play tournaments, focusing on those I think are the most important, but I do well in the ones I play in, because training by myself gives me confidence, discipline and good fundamentals. I'm still developing as a player, even after 15 years of play I get a little bit better every month.

On the other hand, someone playing ONLY tournaments, never practising, risk getting gun shy, not shooting certain shots because of a previous bad outcome, or even stifling his/her game by shooting overly conservative shots rather than going for the runout. Then getting beaten by for instance a lucky kick, reacting by becoming even more conservative and on and on it goes. Keep 'em in the chair, and their luck does not enter into it!

 

[mvp]

I don't agree with this post. Look I'm no expert on APA or even handicap tournament play. We have one of those every week at my poolhall and I hardly ever play in them. When I do I tend to do well, but I don't really care that much, but I still think what I'm about to say applies.

The point is: No other sport or activity does things the way many pool players do things. Let's say you want to be, I don't know a good American Football player (the one thing I know even less about, lol): Nobody is going to tell you to only play games until you get better. You are going to work on your skills in segments. Tackling, throwing the ball, sprinting or whatever it is they do, lol. The reason "league only" players don't get better is that they never work on their weaknesses, because they don't have to. And they only play full games, where those aspects come up too rarely to actually learn from them. If you work on, say your draw shots for a week, you are going to progress more in that short time than you will a whole year of playing. What you learn will be better ingrained, so it will hold up under pressure as well. Sure, everybody chokes now and then, but practising in your basement or anywhere else won't make that happen more. Weak skills and lack of training will.

Developing mental toughness can only be done from within. If you practise without purpose, without pressure, you are doing it wrong! I can shoot stop shots and get so nervous I'm shaking all over, if I wanted to. It's all about the mind, setting a high standard for yourself and refusing to let up on it. I rarely play tournaments, focusing on those I think are the most important, but I do well in the ones I play in, because training by myself gives me confidence, discipline and good fundamentals. I'm still developing as a player, even after 15 years of play I get a little bit better every month.

On the other hand, someone playing ONLY tournaments, never practising, risk getting gun shy, not shooting certain shots because of a previous bad outcome, or even stifling his/her game by shooting overly conservative shots rather than going for the runout. Then getting beaten by for instance a lucky kick, reacting by becoming even more conservative and on and on it goes. Keep 'em in the chair, and their luck does not enter into it!

This guy gets it!

 

[BRussell]

I’m not sure why pool players see handicaps as some kind of crutch/communism/laziness. Handicaps are a common way in many activities to allow practice between uneven players to be more fun and beneficial.

As a total nerd in college, I played Go, which is like an Asian chess that allows for easy handicapping. You just put extra pieces on the board to equalize the game for the weaker player. Stronger players would play weaker players, and the handicap would make it more fun for both, because the weaker player wouldn’t be crushed and the stronger player would have a challenge. It was out of the question unthinkable that anyone would complain about how “everyone gets a trophy” or how people should just lose until they get better.

Most other games and sport clubs (golf, bowling) are similar. Of course, the big tournaments or the state championships don’t use handicaps (though they might have separate tourneys for players of different abilities), but otherwise most weekly and monthly play is handicapped. Otherwise it would just be boring and predictable.

 

[hang-the-9]

I’m not sure why pool players see handicaps as some kind of crutch/communism/laziness. Handicaps are a common way in many activities to allow practice between uneven players to be more fun and beneficial.

As a total nerd in college, I played Go, which is like an Asian chess that allows for easy handicapping. You just put extra pieces on the board to equalize the game for the weaker player. Stronger players would play weaker players, and the handicap would make it more fun for both, because the weaker player wouldn’t be crushed and the stronger player would have a challenge. It was out of the question unthinkable that anyone would complain about how “everyone gets a trophy” or how people should just lose until they get better.

Most other games and sport clubs (golf, bowling) are similar. Of course, the big tournaments or the state championships don’t use handicaps (though they might have separate tourneys for players of different abilities), but otherwise most weekly and monthly play is handicapped. Otherwise it would just be boring and predictable.

I am OK with having handicapped events, what I found interesting is that the players would rather spend their time looking to make the better players work harder instead of using that time to play and get better. All the good players that already knew how to play were on the tables between their matches, the others were just talking about how they need to be ranked lower and us higher instead of using this time to play or ask us for pointers or help with something.

My point was people that want to win or compete by handicapping others more, not by trying to improve how they play. Which I saw as a flaw in many league players, they spend more time discussing how this guy is a 4 that guy is a 6, I am a 3, they should be a 7, instead of "how do I use left spin?". The better players win because of time put in and learning things, get your 3 ass to the table to learn to play like the 5s instead of wanting the 5s to be 6s and you be 2s and complaining how unfair it is that the same people win. The people that win work to win. If the Yankees win every world championship, the baseball teams don't start to make rules so they need to get to 4 runs and them only 2 to win, they try to form a team that can beat them with training and coaching. There is 0 reasons why those weaker players can't work on the game, especially in the middle of a tournament they came to play.

 

[cardiac kid]

Hang,

Want to comment on your last post before you edited it. Specially the part about players wanting lower handicaps instead of learning to "spin" a ball. Full blame belongs to the APA and its "anyone can win" philosophy. Anyone can not win! I'd be glad to play the national champion APA 2 at 7 - 2 any day. Way too much emphasis on leveling the playing field instead of structuring a learning process to make better players. Currently, the better you play, the higher your handicap goes. Not good for team play!

Lyn

 

[BRussell]

I am OK with having handicapped events, what I found interesting is that the players would rather spend their time looking to make the better players work harder instead of using that time to play and get better. All the good players that already knew how to play were on the tables between their matches, the others were just talking about how they need to be ranked lower and us higher instead of using this time to play or ask us for pointers or help with something.

My point was people that want to win or compete by handicapping others more, not by trying to improve how they play. Which I saw as a flaw in many league players, they spend more time discussing how this guy is a 4 that guy is a 6, I am a 3, they should be a 7, instead of "how do I use left spin?". The better players win because of time put in and learning things, get your 3 ass to the table to learn to play like the 5s instead of wanting the 5s to be 6s and you be 2s and complaining how unfair it is that the same people win. The people that win work to win. If the Yankees win every world championship, the baseball teams don't start to make rules so they need to get to 4 runs and them only 2 to win, they try to form a team that can beat them with training and coaching. There is 0 reasons why those weaker players can't work on the game, especially in the middle of a tournament they came to play.

I gotcha, and I agree with what you posted. I wasn’t really replying to your post as much as the anti-handicapping attitude. IMO, leagues and local/weekly tournaments should be handicapped because it makes it more fun and interesting for both the weaker and stronger players, which encourages everyone to play, which helps people to learn. Of course there should also be non-handicapped tournaments to see who is best.

The problem, and I think this is part of your point, is that people just ***** about how they lost because of the handicap and it’s not fair wah wah.

 

[strmanglr scott]

I agree having handicaps for leagues.

Not for tournaments though.

Tournaments are to see who's the best player that day. Not who can win because they got a spot.

 

[Pelican1989]

I agree having handicaps for leagues.

Not for tournaments though.

Tournaments are to see who's the best player that day. Not who can win because they got a spot.

Depends, I'd rather not play a 10 person tournament when you can play a 30 person one...etc

it's very typical in my area...you offer an open event, you hardly get anyone, you offer handicaps and suddenly you have dozens of players

Besides if you're a 7+ in APA and you lose to a lower skill? Chances are you played bad and would lost to another 7 anyway

plus the prize money etc is much larger

 

[us820]

We have a few apa race W side,straight race L side around here.Gives the apa guys a chance but the 7s win 90% of the time anyway.Fun coming through the B side if you slip up.

 

[lorider]

Hang I stated earlier that I hardly ever practice . That does not mean that I do not have any desire to improve. I took an all day lesson from Randy g once. Watch you tube picking up a few pointers here and there.i even pick up a nifty tid bit on this forum now and then but you have to wade through a lot of b.s. And drama to find them.

What I am getting at is that I have no doubt that you observed what you stated. I also have no doubt that there are thousands more players like them scattered throughout the country.. However I also have no doubt there are thousands that are the opposite.

Not every one has the time or inclination to put effort to improve at a pace that you or others think they should. Are there players in league that have been 3's for years ? Yea and I still can't get over being surprised every time I encounter one lol.

However there are many more that do improve . Hence you have countless people whining about the 23 rule and apa is nothing but a pyramid scheme.

Bottom line is pool players as a whole are always whining and looking for excuses why they lost. Whether it be sandbagging....handicaps ...rules that people say favor lower levels.....and even crappy tables. :wink:

 

[PhilosopherKing]

Sounds like the handicaps aren't truly fair. My experience is when weaker players actually have a chance of winning, it's the better players who are not whispering, but practically rioting over people's ratings.

 

[lorider]

Sounds like the handicaps aren't truly fair. My experience is when weaker players actually have a chance of winning, it's the better players who are not whispering, but practically rioting over people's ratings.

I played in a team tournament this weekend that had a boat load of strong players. We had players from all over the region. Even from out of state and all the way from eastern TN. And Missouri.

I just glanced over the rosters and saw the handicaps ranged from 2 to 7. I only saw one 7 but like I say I just glanced over it.

Now what I am about to say is not a complaint....just a fact and I took it as a compliment. Every local apa 7/7 or 7/8 that I know was rated a 3. It just so happens that I ...an apa 5/5 was rated a 3. Every one on my team was rated a 3.

Our team was made up of all apa players and their handicaps are 7/8..7/8...7/7...6/7...6/6 ..and me as a 5/5.. There are undoubtedly a shit load of players at my level who would have complained about being rated the same as 7/8's .

This was my first time ever playing on a tournament with a strong field like we had. We went 2 and out . I like to think I did not let my team down . I only played one match and it was against a 5 in a 5-3 race and I lost 5-2.

In comparison to my team mates I am the only one on the team to win more than one rack playing against an opponent rated higher than a 3.

How every one else fared.

Our 6/6 lost 2-2 on a 3-2 race vs a 2
Our 6/7 won 3-2 in a 3-3 race vs a 3
Our 7/7 won 3-1 in a 3-2 race vs a 2
Our 7/8 lost 4-1 in a 4-3 race vs a 4
Our 7/8 lost 6-1 in a 6-3 race vs a 6

So I did pretty dang good vs a 5 and actually had a chance to win when I was on the hill and flubbed a safe on my last ball and he ran out to win .

When you have apa 7/8's only rated a 3 and there are a boat load of 4's and 5's ...a few 6's and at least one 7 that I know of that should give you an indication of the caliber of players in this tournament.

 

[Mongoose71]

Funny thing is that as with everything that is handicapped......you will always have those that try to work the system. I shoot league 4 nights a week. I consider myself a serious player striving to improve on my game. I am one of those shooters that stays to work on weak areas.....have a home table that is set up like the tables I play on to run drills trying to elevate my shooting, (but with Ridgebacks and Simonis), pretty much exclusively Valley's here. Off topic there, thing is there are more league players crying about sandbagging, or players that are under-rated, or how they are rated too high.... than there are serious league shooters......wth.....if they spent as much time practicing as they did crying about sh*t then they would be better by 10 fold. Hell I play in one of the largest A.P.A. territories in the U.S. and it is hard to put a team together of just 5 dedicated shooters so you are forced to have these half-steppers on board. So with that being said you are going to have the criers no matter what and yes it is funny but sucks. Definitely working hard to get my shooting where it needs to be to be competitive in the non-handicapped leagues!! (just a random rant)!!