Swerve and Deflection? Any great Youtube videos?

[dr_dave]

I have a REVO shaft and supposedly "the deflection" should be less than other LD shafts, but when I drive the CB hard, I still get about 1/2 ball deflection at the 8 foot table length on my 9 foot table up against the end rail. As I am practicing English, the normal easy path or moderate path of the CB into the OB, I can allow for the spin of the CB to drive the OB directly to the pocket. But at harder shots, I have to almost aim at the CB directly into the OB for a direct line shot for a 15 degree bend with inside English because of the "deflection" of the CB. I am looking for some guidance along this subject.

FYI, lots of videos, articles, and info dealing with this topic can be found on the following resource pages:

aim compensation when using sidespin

squirt, swerve, and throw effects

back-hand (BHE) and front-hand english (FHE)

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[Bobkitty]

FYI, lots of videos, articles, and info dealing with this topic can be found on the following resource pages:

aim compensation when using sidespin

squirt, swerve, and throw effects

back-hand (BHE) and front-hand english (FHE)

Enjoy,
Dave

I will use those links. Thanks!

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

Good points. Not full table shots but 3-5 foot shots and probably using too much side spin and too much speed in my practice. I like your point of finding the shots that have almost zero "deflection" with an amount of speed and stick to those.

You're misunderstanding me. Every cue has deflection. Any time you're using spin the cue ball is deflecting off the side of the tip. Max speed+max spin=max deflection. A LD shaft just has a lower max deflection. If you drop the cue speed, now you start having to deal with swerve. Swerve varies more due to table conditions than what cue or cuing you do. You're basically looking for the magic pill right now. It doesn't exist. The correlation between cueball speed with no spin and max spin with varying cue speeds is something you need to actually work on. There is no paper or set of numbers to look at.

Remember, the condition of the cloth and rails dictates how much spin is needed with the cue speed. Everyone's heard the old saying "pros don't use much spin" or the variants of that. Well the saying is misleading. They use tons of spin all the time. Pros usage of a good stroke allows them to get more spin for less tip offset from center.

When you say you're missing the shot, are you paying attention to the cue balls route and position? Is the cue ball doing what it's supposed to be do doing? I'd say the cueball is not behaving as you'd like too.

I like this. And I think most players who don't "study squirt" (as many on this board do) just naturally and subconsciously do the blend thing to get the "net zero" effect of spin (squirt, swerve, throw).

I do a lot of english instruction for those that want to consciously adjust, but can't get a handle on it on their own. It's an eye opener for players who never thought about these things, but it's a double-edge sword: too many things to think about until it becomes second nature.


Freddie

I'd say the reason it's an eye opener is due to the massive amount of bad information that gets spread via word of mouth. Specially on this board where the word swerve keeps getting thrown around with these topics get brought up. I play with a 13mm solid wood, modified pro taper shaft that weighs 3.87oz. I don't use swerve at all for normal shots. Why should I complicate things more. I already compensate for the speed of the cloth when using spin, why do I now need to calculate the extra bit of grab needed to get a proper swerve? My view is that you never need to. Why? Show me pros that do nothing but play with a rolling cue ball. There isn't one because swerve isn't something they need to be conceded with unlike this board thinks.

I'd wager that all the people who talk about needing swerve don't have a proper stroke in the first place. Or that the swerve they talk about is due to the alignment of their eyes and the cue balls path across their vision center.

 

[Bobkitty]

You're misunderstanding me. Every cue has deflection. Any time you're using spin the cue ball is deflecting off the side of the tip. Max speed+max spin=max deflection. A LD shaft just has a lower max deflection. If you drop the cue speed, now you start having to deal with swerve. Swerve varies more due to table conditions than what cue or cuing you do. You're basically looking for the magic pill right now. It doesn't exist. The correlation between cueball speed with no spin and max spin with varying cue speeds is something you need to actually work on. There is no paper or set of numbers to look at.

Remember, the condition of the cloth and rails dictates how much spin is needed with the cue speed. Everyone's heard the old saying "pros don't use much spin" or the variants of that. Well the saying is misleading. They use tons of spin all the time. Pros usage of a good stroke allows them to get more spin for less tip offset from center.

When you say you're missing the shot, are you paying attention to the cue balls route and position? Is the cue ball doing what it's supposed to be do doing? I'd say the cueball is not behaving as you'd like too.



I'd say the reason it's an eye opener is due to the massive amount of bad information that gets spread via word of mouth. Specially on this board where the word swerve keeps getting thrown around with these topics get brought up. I play with a 13mm solid wood, modified pro taper shaft that weighs 3.87oz. I don't use swerve at all for normal shots. Why should I complicate things more. I already compensate for the speed of the cloth when using spin, why do I now need to calculate the extra bit of grab needed to get a proper swerve? My view is that you never need to. Why? Show me pros that do nothing but play with a rolling cue ball. There isn't one because swerve isn't something they need to be conceded with unlike this board thinks.

I'd wager that all the people who talk about needing swerve don't have a proper stroke in the first place. Or that the swerve they talk about is due to the alignment of their eyes and the cue balls path across their vision center.

Good points! I have found out since this post, that by doing the hard stroke full English shots where a lot of Swerve (deflection) can take place, that BHE (with the correct pivot location) can take that out. I do like your point of saying "you never need it".

 

[sixpack]

I have a REVO shaft and supposedly "the deflection" should be less than other LD shafts, but when I drive the CB hard, I still get about 1/2 ball deflection at the 8 foot table length on my 9 foot table up against the end rail. As I am practicing English, the normal easy path or moderate path of the CB into the OB, I can allow for the spin of the CB to drive the OB directly to the pocket. But at harder shots, I have to almost aim at the CB directly into the OB for a direct line shot for a 15 degree bend with inside English because of the "deflection" of the CB. I am looking for some guidance along this subject.

A very good way to visualize deflection is to use CJ Wiley's TOI method. I haven't used it enough to advocate for it as a full time system but what it does really, really well is get you to be able to understand deflection.

The gist of it (gotten from youtube, not sharing anything proprietary) is that you line up center to center on the CB and then parallel shift inside to create enough deflection to make the shot.

For straight and almost straight shots you line up center to center.

For medium cuts you line up center to 1/4 ball hit.

For cut shots you line up center to edge.

Then you adjust from there.

So a light cut to the left you would aim center to center and then parallel shift your cb a little (1/2 tip or less) to the left and shoot. The CB will deflect to the right and create the angle to cut the OB slightly back to the left.

Using this system to estimate how much deflection you need on a given shot will build in a great sense of intuition for predicting deflection when you need to adjust for it.

Once you have it figured out with creating deflection to make the shot, then start using it with outside english and predict how much you'll need to 'allow' for deflection.

Again, all with parallel english.

Once you have mastered both of those, then start doing it with bottom and top mixed in and you'll be able to clearly see the effects of Swerve because you will 'know' how much the shot should have deflected vs. how much it swerved back.

Finally, start incorporating back hand english back into it and see how much that changes everything. For me, it gave me a great baseline and if I need to come with that long cut shot with a ton of low inside english...I know exactly where to aim for parallel or backhand english. Usually I use a combination of both and that just becomes another dimension to aiming.

There are some shots where parallel english gives you the path you need for the cb and back hand english will not.

 

[JC]

Good points. Not full table shots but 3-5 foot shots and probably using too much side spin and too much speed in my practice. I like your point of finding the shots that have almost zero "deflection" with an amount of speed and stick to those.

It's not that they have almost zero deflection it's just that you need to hit it at the sweet spot of speed where deflection cancels throw precisely while you perceive a shot that is aimed normally. Every shaft is different if even slightly.

The reason low deflection shafts give better results is because they extend the boundaries of that sweet "spot" to a wider sweet "zone" giving more room for error.

JC

 

[Kim Bye]

I have a REVO shaft and supposedly "the deflection" should be less than other LD shafts, but when I drive the CB hard, I still get about 1/2 ball deflection at the 8 foot table length on my 9 foot table up against the end rail. As I am practicing English, the normal easy path or moderate path of the CB into the OB, I can allow for the spin of the CB to drive the OB directly to the pocket. But at harder shots, I have to almost aim at the CB directly into the OB for a direct line shot for a 15 degree bend with inside English because of the "deflection" of the CB. I am looking for some guidance along this subject.

Welcome to physics...
NO shaft on the market will give you that magical touch, that only comes from practice.
The more power and spin you put on the ball, the more you will need to compensate, especially on long shots.

 

[Bobkitty]

It's not that they have almost zero deflection it's just that you need to hit it at the sweet spot of speed where deflection cancels throw precisely while you perceive a shot that is aimed normally. Every shaft is different if even slightly.

The reason low deflection shafts give better results is because they extend the boundaries of that sweet "spot" to a wider sweet "zone" giving more room for error.

JC

Good points!

 

[Bobkitty]

Welcome to physics...
NO shaft on the market will give you that magical touch, that only comes from practice.
The more power and spin you put on the ball, the more you will need to compensate, especially on long shots.

Ain't that always it.... more practice. No wonder the worlds greats spent 16 hours a day for years and years. Great pool is not easy!

 

[Kim Bye]

Ain't that always it.... more practice. No wonder the worlds greats spent 16 hours a day for years and years. Great pool is not easy!

Yes,there really are no shortcuts. But you can practice those type of shots that forces you to compensate the most. When you start to nail those shots, you can experiment with different shafts and the amount of deflection will be easier to gauge.
That`s the best advice I have.

 

[jburkm002]

Isn't Dr. Dave's info focused on how to apply English, so you don't have to guess/compensate. .

 

[Bobkitty]

Isn't Dr. Dave's info focused on how to apply English, so you don't have to guess/compensate. .

True enough but a ton of practice and with a cue stick you're accustomed to. I get beat by a guy that has 60 years of playing non stop pool and he says he's never hit the middle of a cue ball. I've always been to one that wanted to hit the vertical middle but he's got me going. I'm going to learn it.