Sharking or not Sharking?

vagabond said:
How can one determine that the miscue is intentional ? Any objective data and evidence for such determination?:cool:
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I cover this topic, with several examples, here:

Sometimes this is a judgement call, but is is usually obvious, especially to a capable referee. If it is not obvious, the benefit of the doubt always goes to the shooter.

Regards,
Dave
 
twal said:
So played league last night and player “A” (on my team) was shooting and using a bridge. He shot, miscued on the CB and it popped up and came back down and he still made the ball.

Player “B” approaches the table to question if this was a legal hit. Player “B” says well the league director is right here, and he was, let me go ask him.

Player “A” stayed at the table waiting for a decision to be made.

So player “B” speaks with the director and the decision is made rather quickly (within 30 seconds) that under BCA rules this was not a foul.

Player “B” and the league director continue to have discussions while player “A” waits. Clearly player “B” disagreed with this decision.

Well this discussion goes on for what felt like at least 5 minutes, so it probably more like 3 minutes.

...............

I would like to hear the AZers thoughts on this.
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How can you be sure of his motive ?
His action of delaying the game might have effected his opponent ( player A ) but it does not mean that player B sharked him.
How can you say that player B delayed the game with the intent of sharking.
He may not even have intent of delaying the game.
His dissatisfaction with the tournament director`s decission had definitely caused the delay of the game but no one knows that his argumnetativeness with the tournamnet director was intended to delay the game. Only that player who caused the delay knows the intent for his argumentativeness/arm twisting.:cool:
 
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dr_dave said:
I cover this topic, with several examples, here:

Sometimes this is a judgement call, but is is usually obvious, especially to a capable referee. If it is not obvious, the benefit of the doubt always goes to the shooter.

Regards,
Dave
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I reviewed it but it does not answer my question. My question is not whether it is a miscue or not. My question is on the motives of the player. How can one determine that the miscue was done intentionally. what evidence one can present to say the player had intentionally miscued it.:cool:
 
vagabond said:
dr_dave said:
I cover this topic, with several examples, here:

Sometimes this is a judgement call, but is is usually obvious, especially to a capable referee. If it is not obvious, the benefit of the doubt always goes to the shooter.
Click to expand...
I reviewed it but it does not answer my question. My question is not whether it is a miscue or not. My question is on the motives of the player. How can one determine that the miscue was done intentionally. what evidence one can present to say the player had intentionally miscued it.:cool:
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See the shots in Diagrams 2 and 3 of the article. I think those are fairly good examples of how intent is judged.

Regards,
Dave
 
Clearly

It is the responsibility of the League Operator to allow play to continue after he made a decision. Any continuing conversation would be after the fact.
 
A player that plays in our room is always calling fouls on close shots that are legal then laughs when I object it was legal. I feel he does this to interrupt your shooting, I told him it is sharking and the next time he feels a shot is close have someone look at shot as I shoot and go by their decision, if not I will take BIH for sharking....comments
 
No sharking. Doesnt sound intentional. Foul, bb could be right?
I would shoot after the l.o. made a call or maybe wait until they are done talking about. Depends on how I feel.

Player A missing the next shot is on them. You need to learn to compose yourself and continue on. No need to blame others.
 
oh my goodness a guy was sharking you. oh how it must affect your shooting and hurt your feelings. is this how people think of pool.

thin skin gets you nowhere in this world.
 
twal said:
So played league last night and player “A” (on my team) was shooting and using a bridge. He shot, miscued on the CB and it popped up and came back down and he still made the ball.

Player “B” approaches the table to question if this was a legal hit. Player “B” says well the league director is right here, and he was, let me go ask him.

Player “A” stayed at the table waiting for a decision to be made.

So player “B” speaks with the director and the decision is made rather quickly (within 30 seconds) that under BCA rules this was not a foul.

Player “B” and the league director continue to have discussions while player “A” waits. Clearly player “B” disagreed with this decision.

Well this discussion goes on for what felt like at least 5 minutes, so it probably more like 3 minutes.

Player “A” finally comes over and says to both, I would like a ruling so I shoot or not. This delay is not fair to me. So I am on player “A’s” team and the director calls me over regarding a definition of a jumped ball. I shared my input and then said that the delay is shark tactic on player “B”. This was not fair to my player. Once a decision has been made he should be allowed to shoot.

So I walked away and they still were talking. Finally a minute or 2 later player “A” was allowed to shoot. The delay in total now felt like 10 minutes, which means it was more like 5-6 minutes.

So in the end, player “A” missed his shot and then player “B” stepped to the table and ran out.

Needless to say I felt it was a shark move on player “B”. My league director disagrees and said well, everyone is entitled to get clarification of the rules. I guess I am of the opinion that that is not correct. Everyone who shoots needs to know the rules. Just because they don’t know or don’t understand the rules should not give them the right to wrongfully delay play.

As I said this was BCA rules. In my opinion, this was pretty clear cut that there was no foul. Maybe you had to be there to see it. The only argument would be that he double kissed the CB with his tip. Player “B” could not say that and therefore a miscue is not a foul.

I do understand some situations come up where a delay to get the right call is warranted. I guess I this situation, I don’t see it and there is lies my complaint.

Maybe I am just venting, but it did cost my team 2 points. This was the final game of the night.

I would like to hear the AZers thoughts on this.
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A decision was made in 30 seconds and your player stood there like a bump on a log. Did he have a stupid look on his face? You should be pissed at your player for standing there looking foolish instead of shooting, AFTER the decision was made! duh
 
twal said:
I saw the shot and no, no ferrule contact.
I have never seen a micsue that hit the ferrule.
I think the only way do that would be to mover the stick sideways or have the cb drop on top of the shaft.
Well, maybe I am wrong???

Anyway, in this situation, the CB maybe came up 1" total.

I know I am totally bias with my opinion.

Clearly I am still pissed about it :mad:
Not the first time and I am sure it will not be the last time something like this comes up.
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Many miscues hit the ferrule, it's just too fast to see, but you can hear it. You hear a tink? That's the ferrule hitting the cueball.

EDIT.. thread is from 2011, must be very important to someone LOL
 
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Was there an open table nearby? Set up the exact same shot he is on and practice it 20 times while "player B" is arguing with the league official. Or pull some balls out of the pocket on your table and hit them while B argues.

Use it to your benefit.
 
If I was the "A" player I would have went with the opponent to ask. Once the LO made the decision I'm going back to the table and play.

My opponent can sit there and argue w the LO or watch the game.

This really comes down to the captains knowing the rules. I'm no longer a captain but I have read the rule book and can reference it fairly quickly.

And Black Balled, yes, the ferrule hits the cb on a miscue pretty much everytime, however in bca that is not a foul. But I'm guessing you know that.
 
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