Fargorate VS Pro Player designed rating system

justnum

justnum

Billiards Improvement Research Projects Associate
Silver Member
Billiards is in its infancy compared to other sports.

Fargorate is a business based model, designed by CSI for CSI events.

There is still time to compete against it.

Mainly in the Age-Graded format. It is popular in track and cross country events.


Billiards has a wide range of players. A player that is nearing 60 might need a little more rest than someone who is just turning 20 or 30.

Pro tournaments don't have great scheduling and rest between matches can be disruptive.

What do you think? Is there room for improvement in pro tournaments to acknowledge that senior and near senior citizens don't face the same conditions as newly minted 20 somethings? I am not saying older players don't play well, I am saying biologically older players play differently than their younger selves.

This was even hinted at in "The Color of Money." The line about licking the mustard off the jar.

My main point against Fargorate is it is based on competition data, there is no consideration about a player's age.

I feel that lack of proper rating system internationally is another fault of the WPA. Or it could be pro players have no idea how to complain, they just play a hand they were meant to lose.
 
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As a 65+ player I got to say there is no reason if I compete against a 20yo there should be any extra consideration. I do however wish there were more "senior" events. As a final note, there is nothing in the world sweeter (ok, maybe a few things but just making a point) than the look on the youngster when an old coot like me beats him :grin: Doesn't happen as much as it used to, but it still happens.

Bob
 
I wouldn't trust the "pros" enough to design anything, especially a meaningful ranking system. They are generally lone wolves that Excel at the game, but not in organizing and analyzing data or anything else for that matter. Leave this to the math folks.

Also, I could be wrong, but I think that fargorate is the property of Mike page, not CSI, the though CSI adopted the system rightly because of the systems merits. Sorry, but fargorate is light years ahead of any other system I've seen and it's getting better, imo. If they can start rating other games like onehole, then it will be the bees knees.
 
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justnum said:
[...]
Fargorate is a business based model, designed by CSI for CSI events.
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Fargorate and CSI are separate entities; neither designed the other. Fargorate doesn't control CSI, and CSI doesn't control FargoRate.

Fargorate works closely with CSI, and that is a good thing for the pool world. Fargo Ratings are designed to rate all pool players everywhere.


My main point against Fargorate is it is based on competition data[...]
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We gladly accept this criticism.
 
justnum said:
Billiards is in its infancy compared to other sports.

Fargorate is a business based model, designed by CSI for CSI events.

There is still time to compete against it.

Mainly in the Age-Graded format. It is popular in track and cross country events.


Billiards has a wide range of players. A player that is nearing 60 might need a little more rest than someone who is just turning 20 or 30.

Pro tournaments don't have great scheduling and rest between matches can be disruptive.

What do you think? Is there room for improvement in pro tournaments to acknowledge that senior and near senior citizens don't face the same conditions as newly minted 20 somethings? I am not saying older players don't play well, I am saying biologically older players play differently than their younger selves.

This was even hinted at in "The Color of Money." The line about licking the mustard off the jar.

My main point against Fargorate is it is based on competition data, there is no consideration about a player's age.

I feel that lack of proper rating system internationally is another fault of the WPA. Or it could be pro players have no idea how to complain, they just play a hand they were meant to lose.
Click to expand...

As critical as I have been of Fargo for ignoring several aspects that I truly believe skew the ratings, I do not think age should be one of them. While you do have valid points such as rest and what not, I would have to agree with Mike on this one when he says you can not take every single variable into account ( like humidity at time of play etc ).
 
OP, I think Efren Reyes is a perfect example that both proves and disproves your theory . At his age now he does not play as good ( on a consistent level ) as he did 10, 15, 20 years ago. But with that said, he STILL plays much ,ugh better than 99%+ of all 20 somethings so how could anyone gauge that? I don't believe you can to any specific degree. The only thing you can do is have a seniors division- which they do most of the time.
 
BmoreMoney said:
As critical as I have been of Fargo for ignoring several aspects that I truly believe skew the ratings, I do not think age should be one of them. While you do have valid points such as rest and what not, I would have to agree with Mike on this one when he says you can not take every single variable into account ( like humidity at time of play etc ).
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More important than humidity is scheduling.

The most common being a match runs late at night, then based on the results the next match is first in the morning.

Do you think there is room to include variables that have been ignored?

It is easy to say someone can win a tournament, or the break and run is important. Or time to finish a break and run is important.

How about time between scheduled matches? Should tournament organizers, organize better? Not all situations can be planned for, but some are more common than others. Specifically the time between matches.

Fargorate doesn't include that info. If age doesn't appeal, than how about rest. Marathon pool players exist but how is it scored, it isn't.
 
justnum said:
More important than humidity is scheduling.

The most common being a match runs late at night, then based on the results the next match is first in the morning.

Do you think there is room to include variables that have been ignored?

It is easy to say someone can win a tournament, or the break and run is important. Or time to finish a break and run is important.

How about time between scheduled matches? Should tournament organizers, organize better? Not all situations can be planned for, but some are more common than others. Specifically the time between matches.

Fargorate doesn't include that info. If age doesn't appeal, than how about rest. Marathon pool players exist but how is it scored, it isn't.
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Yes, I think there needs to be room for a few more things in the Fargo algorithm - as myself and others have stated. I do not think anything and everything can be included. As I said you make valid points, sometimes scheduling sick etc. But everyone deals with that. What I think shoots done your perspective though is there are STILL older folks routinely wiping the floor with the young in regardless of scheduling. Basically, where do you stop including data - what the person had to eat, what they drank, smokes or not, how many lines they did or didn't do, how many bowls? There has to be a line between relevant and not. Obviously muse
Friday and others have a few issues with Mike as what we consider relevant and what he does. You do too obviously , but believe it or not in this case I think your stretching it way past relevant. Some would even say you are belittling seniors with this. Actually I'd bet a bunch of those would. This IS NOT THE SAME as running a marathon or whatever example you gave . It's still a race to 9 or 11 it therabouts. If someone does not have the stamina to compete in a short race like that then maybe they should be doing something else?
 
Why don't you start your OWN "grading system"? No doubt the pros will be flocking to it, as it would have been invented by YOU! :boring:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

justnum said:
More important than humidity is scheduling.

The most common being a match runs late at night, then based on the results the next match is first in the morning.

Do you think there is room to include variables that have been ignored?

It is easy to say someone can win a tournament, or the break and run is important. Or time to finish a break and run is important.

How about time between scheduled matches? Should tournament organizers, organize better? Not all situations can be planned for, but some are more common than others. Specifically the time between matches.

Fargorate doesn't include that info. If age doesn't appeal, than how about rest. Marathon pool players exist but how is it scored, it isn't.
Click to expand...
 
BmoreMoney said:
It's still a race to 9 or 11 it therabouts. If someone does not have the stamina to compete in a short race like that then maybe they should be doing something else?
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If the race is so short, why bother with the rating system at all.

If there were a standard to adopt for all tournaments, then it should be about paying out on time.

As for finding ways for amateurs to think they can compete near pro level, that is mostly analytic entertainment. Most commonly known as ladder matches, an old term in chess and e-gaming.

Standardizing player ratings was a great business decision. However the standardization of tournament format is unrealistic but worth talking about. Specifically in the area of scheduling.
 
I'm not seeing an issue.

If age begins to affect a player's performance, their rating will drop accordingly. The rating will then reflect their overall average level of play.
 
mikepage said:
Fargorate and CSI are separate entities; neither designed the other. Fargorate doesn't control CSI, and CSI doesn't control FargoRate.

Fargorate works closely with CSI, and that is a good thing for the pool world. Fargo Ratings are designed to rate all pool players everywhere.




We gladly accept this criticism.
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Thank you Mike for setting the record straight.

To the original poster, make sure you know your facts before assuming or guessing about things. On the bright side for you, you may have a future at CNN.
 
Thanks Mike; I appreciate all you've done to make the pool industry more fair for everyone. Fargorate may not be perfect but a tremendous improvement over what we had before..I believe your continuously trying to improve the system so thank you for your efforts. thank you, Tom bourdeon
 
This was not a fargorate bashing thread.

After a full discussion. I meant it more as a if tournaments are adopting standards like fargorate. Then what would be standard that has benefits to all players.

That standard would be scheduling and required resting hours.

In some sports having a concussion forces players to sit out games or matches or events.

It is very macho that a player complete a match in the worst circumstances possible. However it isn't practical to force players to compete in conditions that must be identified.

What conditions about scheduling and rest I am proposing? How about a gap break? It leaves budgeted time for matches to finish, while others know they can rest.

It will eat up tournament time, but it can also increase quality of play. It might give the vendors a chance to actually have time with players or passers by. Instead of random demos, the gap break would be ideal for industry product/event promotions.
 
justnum said:
This was not a fargorate bashing thread.

After a full discussion. I meant it more as a if tournaments are adopting standards like fargorate. Then what would be standard that has benefits to all players.

That standard would be scheduling and required resting hours.

In some sports having a concussion forces players to sit out games or matches or events.

It is very macho that a player complete a match in the worst circumstances possible. However it isn't practical to force players to compete in conditions that must be identified.

What conditions about scheduling and rest I am proposing? How about a gap break? It leaves budgeted time for matches to finish, while others know they can rest.

It will eat up tournament time, but it can also increase quality of play. It might give the vendors a chance to actually have time with players or passers by. Instead of random demos, the gap break would be ideal for industry product/event promotions.
Click to expand...


Cart before the horse. You have to figure out how to get exponentially more spectators in before you worry about down time to peruse vendors. All the time in the world doesn’t matter when you only have a few hundred people at the most.
 
Tin Man said:
I'm not seeing an issue.

If age begins to affect a player's performance, their rating will drop accordingly. The rating will then reflect their overall average level of play.
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YUUUUUUUUP:thumbup:
As to the OP, Yea I would like a little rest between matches but I am sure Ronnie O'Sullivan would have liked a little rest between Shanghai and North Ireland also. He had a chance to win a million but you could see how fatigued he was playing back to back to back.............

Non of that has anything to do with the viability of fargo rate. :shrug:
 
vapoolplayer said:
Cart before the horse. You have to figure out how to get exponentially more spectators in before you worry about down time to peruse vendors. All the time in the world doesn’t matter when you only have a few hundred people at the most.
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In most sports the break is for the players.

In which sport is the break for the people watching?
 
Although Fargo might be a probably is the most accurate you still could have some problems when using it for rail betting , for instance James Aranas Zoren hit the scales as number 3 at 813 I believe most of it based on him playing this person or that person mostly not here , when he came here and I saw him play I told his handler after he made mention of that he's not that speed , he's now 802 ,he had a low robust that would explain that
However take Alex with a high robust number who is still down the list because Alex does what Alex does plays many games one pocket ,snooker cards what ever might jump into some rotation also so his number stays lower , then he might just decide to dedicate all his time strictly to Rotation and in a short time he's playing 810 speed but his number won't reflect that similar to a batting average, you see that in the summer after a guy hits 225 then he's hitting 360 and his number rounds out to 280 and he's simply a better hitter than that ,
Without being privy to that info you simply don't have a today accurate rate period

1
 
justnum said:
In most sports the break is for the players.

In which sport is the break for the people watching?
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Lol......you tell me, you’re the one who said:

justnum said:
InIt will eat up tournament time, but it can also increase quality of play. It might give the vendors a chance to actually have time with players or passers by. Instead of random demos, the gap break would be ideal for industry product/event promotions
Click to expand...
 
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