Efren's Stroke Comment - BD Oct 2007

[JoeyInCali]

Efren was so good before he came to America, that he had to quit playing for 5 years for lack of opponents! Can you imagine someone so good they couldn't get action in the Phillipines? Not only that, but he dominated in Balkline Billiards as well! Now, I'm no Billiards expert, but it's simply mindblowing that someone can play as controlled of a game as Balkline with that kind of stroke!

Playing on Simonis and proper, dry conditions eliminated the need for some of the power, so he changed his stroke up. I don't know if he got instruction or not, but he's such an intelligent player that I'm sure he picked up a lot just from watching others. A player of that caliber cannot trust his stroke to just anyone...

Anyhow, if you watch the old greats, they all have very ideosyncratic styles. This could be because of the lack of instructional material at the time, but I believe that the equipment is a major factor. It is extremely difficult to play well on slow conditions with a snooker stroke. Even the old snooker greats dropped their elbows etc, because the cloth was much slower and they didn't have steel backed cushions or heated slates. Diamond tables have completely changed the way the game is being played, as has Simonis cloth. I think, not necessarily for the better. Sure people pot more accurately now (at least some), but we have lost the unique strokes that were needed to get out when the rack was tough. Now you can go four rails without even touching the ball. Oh, well.

He had no instructor. Efren has this thing, he doesn't go to a maestro who can't beat him . I've seen his scoff instructors at Hard Times. One was trying to convince him he was drawing the cue ball wrong. Someone who he could have given the 6-out.
He also has changed cue specs . He no longer plays with really long and heavy cues . 59", 19 oz is fine now .
He used to wrist the cue a ton. Not anymore.

 

[Low500]

Strange that only in pool are instructors scoffed at. Even when tiger Woods was at the peak of his game, he utilized coaches. But, for pool, some think all instructors do is rip people off. Very short-sighted thinking.
I don't know if Efren utilized an instructor or not. But he did change up his stroke. That's obvious. Even at his level of play, he knew it needed something more.
I do know that other pros have sought out instruction. And, at their level, it is almost always going back to the basics. Idiosyncrasies creep in over the years, and they need them fixed.

Since I'm ignorant and how thinking short-sighted as well.....I may as well go all in.
Referring to what I've colored in blue: Maybe that is because in the game of pool as opposed to the athletics of golf where the coaches can really play, that's what pool "instructors" mostly do.....?
Name me one pool instructor who all of the following pro pool players wouldn't simply rob at will.
Scott Frost, Alex, Dennis O., SVB, Appleton, O'Sullivan, Jasmine Ouschan, Allison Fisher, Eagle Eye Shaw, Jennifer Baretta, even Lori Jon (and she doesn't really cook it anymore), 5-6 of those young Asian ladies, Kaci, Dechaine, Strickland, I can go on and on.
I've never seen one 'instructor' for pool that wouldn't go flat busted against any of those hitters.
Pool instructors prey on no-talent, half blind, half dead, no shooting, dummies... like me.
That's my opinion. I think I'll stick with it.
Very delighted to chat back and forth with you.
:thumbup:

 

[nobcitypool]

Tried it at the expo. It really wasnt hard to change your stroke and punch one in with force on the hardest setting and not make it vibrate. I imagine most players and pros it would vibrate on it's easiest setting with their normal strokes. While I think the device is good for here and there use, you really have to change your normal stroke to get it to not vibrate and I think that is more of a detriment for an already established stroke. I'm defintely not saying you are fine with the Allen Hopkins stroke, but I think some "anomalies" in a stroke may benefit more on certain shots rather then it always being perfectly straight.

However... see my disclaimer, what the hell do I know.

What anomalies are you thinking of and what benefits do you think they provide on certain shots? I think you may be correct to a degree. It looks like a lot of pros use the punch or stun stroke quite a bit, especially on bar tables. I'm a mere mortal though and it is often a struggle to consistently make a good stroke of one type.

 

[Neil]

Since I'm ignorant and how thinking short-sighted as well.....I may as well go all in.
Referring to what I've colored in blue: Maybe that is because in the game of pool as opposed to the athletics of golf where the coaches can really play, that's what pool "instructors" mostly do.....?
Name me one pool instructor who all of the following pro pool players wouldn't simply rob at will.
Scott Frost, Alex, Dennis O., SVB, Appleton, O'Sullivan, Jasmine Ouschan, Allison Fisher, Eagle Eye Shaw, Jennifer Baretta, even Lori Jon (and she doesn't really cook it anymore), 5-6 of those young Asian ladies, Kaci, Dechaine, Strickland, I can go on and on.
I've never seen one 'instructor' for pool that wouldn't go flat busted against any of those hitters.
Pool instructors prey on no-talent, half blind, half dead, no shooting, dummies... like me.
That's my opinion. I think I'll stick with it.
Very delighted to chat back and forth with you.
:thumbup:

Do you realize that some of those people you mentioned are instructors? Or that one doesn't need to be a top player to be able to help a top player?

And, pool instructors don't prey on anyone. But they do help those smart enough to want help.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

And, pool instructors don't prey on anyone. But they do help those smart enough to want help.

I think this is a blanket statement. I would submit there are at least some pool instructors that are in fact "preying" on others by giving out bad information.

And it happens in every sport/game where coaching/instruction is a thing. Instructors who don't really know what they are doing teaching bogus info that is counterproductive to the development of true talents.

In chess, there was a Youtuber that finally got caught and it ended his coaching career. He was using computer assistance during coaching, and pretending he was a better player than he really was. A lot of people loved him before they found out, because he was "so smart and insightful".

Granted, this is a somewhat different example than in pool. In pool, instructors are under no pressure to actually prove they can play a lick. As I said in the other thread, though.. My opinion is that the measure of an instructor should be the quality of the players they produced during their development periods. This is the only way to measure a "good" instructor versus a "poor" instructor.. I.e., what can they do with a decently talented, motivated student?

Short Bus Russ

 

[Low500]

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[Neil]

I think this is a blanket statement. I would submit there are at least some pool instructors that are in fact "preying" on others by giving out bad information.

And it happens in every sport/game where coaching/instruction is a thing. Instructors who don't really know what they are doing teaching bogus info that is counterproductive to the development of true talents.

In chess, there was a Youtuber that finally got caught and it ended his coaching career. He was using computer assistance during coaching, and pretending he was a better player than he really was. A lot of people loved him before they found out, because he was "so smart and insightful".

Granted, this is a somewhat different example than in pool. In pool, instructors are under no pressure to actually prove they can play a lick. As I said in the other thread, though.. My opinion is that the measure of an instructor should be the quality of the players they produced during their development periods. This is the only way to measure a "good" instructor versus a "poor" instructor.. I.e., what can they do with a decently talented, motivated student?

Short Bus Russ

There's always exceptions/ I was referring to in general.

 

[Neil]

If any of those hitters I mentioned are instructors, then by golly they are outstanding sources of information about the game and their teachings would be well worth the time and money invested.
Yes, someone does need to be a top player to help a top player. A shortstop instructor giving advice to a top player is (to quote his majesty the Fat One, R.I.P.) like "putting ice cream on a hot dog".
That's just my ignorant opinion, of course.
:thumbup:

To the part in blue- that has been proven wrong so many times in so many ways that it is amazing anyone still believes that.

 

[Icon of Sin]

What anomalies are you thinking of and what benefits do you think they provide on certain shots? I think you may be correct to a degree. It looks like a lot of pros use the punch or stun stroke quite a bit, especially on bar tables. I'm a mere mortal though and it is often a struggle to consistently make a good stroke of one type.

Well take the video with Efren for example. He has the rocking up and down motion on practice strokes and delivery... That works for him.

 

[nobcitypool]

To the part in blue- that has been proven wrong so many times in so many ways that it is amazing anyone still believes that.

You're absolutely correct. Many if not most people will acknowledge Bill Belichick as the best coach ever in the NFL. He hardly was a HOF player. How about the top golf instructors many of the pros do go to? Toski, Haney and Harmon just to name a few. In fact, try to name 5 top golf instructors that were top pro players?

Would you pay Bustamante $500 per day to give you a stroke lesson? Or Keith McCready? I'd pay them for coaching advice of other aspects of the game but I would never ask them to try and teach me their strokes.

Referencing top self taught professionals who have off the charts natural talent and spent more time playing pool before they were 20 than most of us play in our life isn't very relevant to making a point of "do what feels best for you". If you have off the charts talent and the time to HAMB, have a happy. Mark Wilson said in his book that of course all those players are great but how great could they have been or how great could they have been earlier in their career if they had solid fundamentals.

The sad reality is the vast majority of people lack the work ethic and discipline to practice fundamentals until they have them cold. That can be rather boring and tedious. Most people would rather learn by doing. Doesn't matter whether it is pool, sales, investing or whatever. And most of them are convinced that is the best and most efficient way. And they're all incredibly wrong in that opinion.

I own and operate a reasonably sized construction company. On a recent trip to our office in Raleigh, I bought a audio book by Grant Cardone on selling and listened to it during the trip. Excellent book. I recommended it to all our people pointing out they all have windshield time every day they could utilize listening to this book and it would make them a lot of money. 2 months later I quizzed the group on who had listened to or read it. One had bought it, hadn't listened yet. One had serious plans to. The rest ... nothing. They all think they're "good enough" as they are which is absurd. Not a one of them would have a prayer if they ran into a true rainmaker. They make the same kind of BS statements I see about pool instruction, the pendulum stroke, etc.. Quite comical.

 

[Low500]

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[nobcitypool]

Grant Cardone, Tony Robbins, Doug Edwards, Ziglar, and all the rest made their money by selling books/methods/videos...not through closing sales.
If a rep knows 4 precise, effective, closes and still can't get the person to "sign on the line which is dotted", then the rep does not have a deal...move on and quit screwing around.
If you're in the big league construction business, you're probably still facing the competitive bid system and all the closes, charm, creativity, rebuttals, on earth will NOT make a difference.
Price rules. The buyer will merely take your proposal (where you did all the work) and bid it out to someone else at a lower price while you fume over it in the break room.
That's reality. (that's not in the books you buy, though)
Nice chatting with you, however.
:thumbup:

While it doesn't seem to be your style, you should check some facts prior to posting. Grant Cardone made his fortune in Real Estate.

You know zero about my company as well. 4 closes huh? That's hilarious, I hope your career is something other than sales.

 

[jackpot]

Just wondering

Are you aware that a number of pros have sought out the top instructors for help with their stroke?[/QUOTE]

Which pros, and which instructors did they use.
jack

 

[nataddrho]

Wonder how Efren would do with the Digicue thingamabobie.

Lou Figueroa

....Me too!!

 

[Neil]

Are you aware that a number of pros have sought out the top instructors for help with their stroke?

Which pros, and which instructors did they use.
jack[/QUOTE]

Jerry Briesath, Hunter Lombardo, Mark Wilson, have all said so. And, no sure, but I think Randy G and Scott Lee have said the same. None are willing to name the pros for privacy reasons.

 

[KRJ]

I'd bet money that if the face of the player in the video was hidden and nobody knew who it was, the following would've happened.....................
One of the "expert" instructors would've reacted..."oh horror of horrors, that guy dropped his elbow...he won't ever be a top flight player doing that. And also at the end of his stroking he actually sweeps his cue to the side a little...oh horrors. He needs to see me for lessons". (or some such stuff along those lines).
:thumbup:

Sure, that would happen. NOT. He has a very nice pendulum stroke, with very minimal elbow drop. I wonder why he changed from his sloppy stroke from decades earlier to one that works? hmmmm, I wonder

 

[KRJ]

S
Name me one pool instructor who all of the following pro pool players wouldn't simply rob at will.
Scott Frost, Alex, Dennis O., SVB, Appleton, O'Sullivan, Jasmine Ouschan, Allison Fisher, Eagle Eye Shaw, Jennifer Baretta, even Lori Jon (and she doesn't really cook it anymore), 5-6 of those young Asian ladies, Kaci, Dechaine, Strickland, I can go on and on.
I've never seen one 'instructor' for pool that wouldn't go flat busted against any of those hitters.
Pool instructors prey on no-talent, half blind, half dead, no shooting, dummies... like me.
That's my opinion. I think I'll stick with it.
Very delighted to chat back and forth with you.
:thumbup:

And what golf players would NOT eat Butch Harmon's lunch out of the course? What QB, RB, Wide Receiver, corner back, linebacker, safety and even the punter would NOT embarrass coach Belichick on the field of play.

Most HOF pitchers were taught at an early age but folks that never played baseball, or very little. In college they got advice from some other guys that maybe played at the HS lever, maybe some college. In the pro's, they are being taught, each and ever day by coaches that could NOT compete with them on the field.

One of the best hitting instructors and pitching coaches in the major leagues is rarely a former All Star, in fact, one the best of all time was a pretty crumby major league player and only last 2 or 3 season and was done.

At a higher level of pool, its more mental than the guys like you who can't run 3 balls. So, that's why folks are taught differently.

As a baseball coach for 25 years, including HS, I was teaching the bigger, stronger kids how to hit for power, from a guy who NEVER hit a home run in his entire life. Weird, huh? I might not be able to do it but I can show you how to do it. Which is much better than I can do it, but I have no idea how I did it? Would you not agree ?

 

[jackpot]

Hmm

Which pros, and which instructors did they use.
jack

Jerry Briesath, Hunter Lombardo, Mark Wilson, have all said so. And, no sure, but I think Randy G and Scott Lee have said the same. None are willing to name the pros for privacy reasons.[/QUOTE]

I have helped quite a few myself. After playing only a short period of
time I had them freestrokin. But you have not heard the pros say this.
I wonder if all these pros are ashamed of it or what ? Seems to me
this could a gold mind for a pro. " I was in a terrible slump, couldn't
beat the 3 ball ghost, then I went to Deanoc and he straighten my
faulty stroke right out. Haven't missed a ball since I worked with him"
Now the line for Deanoc's lessons would be like Black Friday at Walmart.
Pro "just mention my name and receive free .... whatever".
Deanoc if you start this just remember it was my idea and I'm in.
jack

 

[Neil]

Jerry Briesath, Hunter Lombardo, Mark Wilson, have all said so. And, no sure, but I think Randy G and Scott Lee have said the same. None are willing to name the pros for privacy reasons.

I have helped quite a few myself. After playing only a short period of
time I had them freestrokin. But you have not heard the pros say this.
I wonder if all these pros are ashamed of it or what ? Seems to me
this could a gold mind for a pro. " I was in a terrible slump, couldn't
beat the 3 ball ghost, then I went to Deanoc and he straighten my
faulty stroke right out. Haven't missed a ball since I worked with him"
Now the line for Deanoc's lessons would be like Black Friday at Walmart.
Pro "just mention my name and receive free .... whatever".
Deanoc if you start this just remember it was my idea and I'm in.
jack[/QUOTE]

Pros want their fellow pros to be in a slump. They don't want them playing better.

 

[alstl]

One of the many things I do to try and improve is when I go and eat at the Gasthof, the amish restaurant down the road, I usually take 1-2 Billiard's Digest or Pool & Billiard Magazines to read whilst I eat. Today I ran across this comment by Efren in the October 2007 issue of Billiards Digest. Thought it might be appropriate since the subject of the "Stroke" is talked about at length on this forum.

Efren's comment:

"I came up with my own stroke style. I know its awkward, but you cant underestimate a stroke just because it is ugly"

Words to live - and stroke - by.

r/DCP

Efren learned to play pool by playing pool and in the process developed a stroke which works for him. With the exception of English snooker players who apparently attend some kind of school which turns them into clones of each other I suspect most pool players are like Efren which is why there are so many different strokes. A similar example would be the wide variety of batting stances of baseball players. They learn to hit a baseball by hitting a baseball and in the process develop whatever stance works for them.