Can You Lose Your Amateur Status - Brian Parks

[lorider]

Just an observation here, peeps. You guys don't seem to be applying a consistent standard when you say "Well, if he doesn't earn his LIVING at the game (omgwtffrothatthemouthlikearabiddog), then he's not a PRO!!!!!!"

Ahem...

Steve Mizerak was a school teacher and won multiple championships while his main vocation was a schoolteacher.

Irving Crane was a car salesman.

Harold "Boola" Worst was a shoe salesman by trade.

You guys would be out of your minds to say players of this caliber should be allowed in any amateur championship.

I rest my case.

Short Bus Russ

Another thing ..you mentioned guys from a while back.

Lets compare Brian with a modern day player who has a full time job. Donnie mills who is a car salesman. To me there is no comparison between the 2. Brian is definitely the amateur between the 2.

Who would your money be on ?

 

[ShortBusRuss]

She brian parks achieves what they did I will agree that he is not an amateur.

Oh, I get it.... He has to win A CERTAIN AMOUNT of championships against world class talent, and then he won't be considered an amateur any more. Cuz he's won at least one.

How... arbitrary of you.

Short Bus Russ

 

[ShortBusRuss]

Another thing ..you mentioned guys from a while back.

Lets compare Brian with a modern day player who has a full time job. Donnie mills who is a car salesman. To me there is no comparison between the 2. Brian is definitely the amateur between the 2.

Who would your money be on ?

And my money would have been on Harold Worst versus anyone else on the list.

And my money would be on Shane Van Boening over Corey Deuel in a long race, in pretty much any game. Yet, no one is lobbying for Corey to be considered an amateur.

There ARE different levels of pros, yah know..

So... What's your point?

Short Bus Russ

 

[KurtMHodges]

Wow ! It was not my intention to hurt tour feelings at all. Maybe I have been on here a little too long and became insensitive like so many posters on here and did not realize it until now.

Why am I defending my stance ? I have played apa for going on 8 years now and I happen to care about how that organization is perceived on this forum.

As to your question of she a player should not be allowed to be an amateur in a league. As for apa your question is answered in posts 38 and 39 of this thread. You may not like the answer but it is what it is.

Bcapl ....some one mentioned that a Fargo rate of 721 defines a pro in that league. I guess Brian would be considered in that league but we are talking about the us amateur which is hosted by apa.

I honestly do not know what tap..vnea ... And Napa guidelines are in defining a pro player.

Feeling good about beating up on lesser competition ? dude I am an apa 5/5 . I het the crap beat out of me a.lot and I hate playing 3's and 4's lol.

Intelligence ? Integrity of the sport ? Governing bodies should act ? Man....your Las paragraph is so far out there and way off base and is in no way...shape...or form comparable to Brian parks being allowed to play in the us amateur. Not trying to be mean spirited towards you but I just dont see the anology there.

Your last sentence....the rules allow it so it must be ok. I can see your point there some what..i dont agree with certain rules some times and.when that happens I don't give that particular organization any of my business. Along those lines ....its apa's tournament....their rules....their format....their guidelines on who is an amateur a d who is a pro. If you feel their rules are wrong dont play in their tournament...simple as that.

A piece of friendly advice if j may.. If you are gonna hang around this forum you need to grow some thicker skin my man.:grin:

I got ya. I am irritated in that I was looking for opinions on what was acceptable for an amateur player, and it devolved into people arguing for or against any standard at all.

FYI, I too am a 5/5 and I also play in Masters because I like being a little fish in a big pond (because I learn a lot). I also play in NAPA and have friends in TAP. Sandbagging in amateur pool is a big problem, and I would think the governing bodies would want to keep baggers out. I am sorry, but if you win multiple open tournaments, you are not an amateur. You may not be a good pro, but you certainly need to move on.

 

[KRJ]

I got ya. I am irritated in that I was looking for opinions on what was acceptable for an amateur player, and it devolved into people arguing for or against any standard at all.

FYI, I too am a 5/5 and I also play in Masters because I like being a little fish in a big pond (because I learn a lot). I also play in NAPA and have friends in TAP. Sandbagging in amateur pool is a big problem, and I would think the governing bodies would want to keep baggers out. I am sorry, but if you win multiple open tournaments, you are not an amateur. You may not be a good pro, but you certainly need to move on.

Move on to where? He can't play leagues, he can't play in amateur tourneys ever again, he has to quit pool because he's too good, and he refused to let his family starve by turning pro and give up his insurance business. yeah, that's not going to happen.

It's such a small, niche sport, its hard to believe we are having this conversation. Folks always grunt, nobody knows who Earl, or Johnny, or Nick are, etc. Well, I don't know who the champions from the US in Badminton. And if so guys refuses to turn pro for purely financial and family reasons, who are we say he can't.

If the amateur league, the APA, and the largest amateur organization in America says he is not a pro, that should be good enough for everyone.

 

[lorider]

I got ya. I am irritated in that I was looking for opinions on what was acceptable for an amateur player, and it devolved into people arguing for or against any standard at all.

FYI, I too am a 5/5 and I also play in Masters because I like being a little fish in a big pond (because I learn a lot). I also play in NAPA and have friends in TAP. Sandbagging in amateur pool is a big problem, and I would think the governing bodies would want to keep baggers out. I am sorry, but if you win multiple open tournaments, you are not an amateur. You may not be a good pro, but you certainly need to move on.

We have a few things in common...aside from.our opinion on Brian parks eligibility lol.

I also play masters for the very same reason as you. In apa I olay masters...9 ball travel and double jeapordy travel. I also play one night of usapl and may play another night if the division starts as planned. I have also played tap ...bcapl and Napa . Around here several people have played in all these leagues just as I have because we just like playing pool. Sure we all may have our preferences as to which league we may like best but I have never heard any one put down one league over another.

You mentioned sandbaggin. That word always comes up in a thread about leagues...apa in particular lol.

You are going to find people in any league that will use any means they can to win any way they can. The world is full of cheats in any competitive environment. In my experience I saw more suspect sandbagging in bcapl than any other league I have played in.

 

[KurtMHodges]

Move on to where? He can't play leagues, he can't play in amateur tourneys ever again, he has to quit pool because he's too good, and he refused to let his family starve by turning pro and give up his insurance business. yeah, that's not going to happen.

It's such a small, niche sport, its hard to believe we are having this conversation. Folks always grunt, nobody knows who Earl, or Johnny, or Nick are, etc. Well, I don't know who the champions from the US in Badminton. And if so guys refuses to turn pro for purely financial and family reasons, who are we say he can't.

If the amateur league, the APA, and the largest amateur organization in America says he is not a pro, that should be good enough for everyone.

By moving on, I mean playing against other players outside of league. I don’t know where you play, but if I quit playing league, I could play people anytime I want, in multiple locations. The purpose of a league is to compete against other skill levels using a handicapped system to level the field. Many players, not just Brian, are too far beyond the field to allow this. At that point they should go pro, play for money, teach or just play for fun like most pool players. Not that complicated.

 

[skip100]

Please go back and read post 39 in case you missed it. And 38 also clarifies apa stance a little more.

That post clarifies nothing. "Sponsorship" could include having a fundraiser at your local bar for a team's lodging in Vegas. That's not remotely the same thing as OB Cues giving a guy money for the purposes of brand promotion due to his skill at the table.

If a pool brand gives you money or free stuff and uses your skill and likeness as a way to promote their products, yes, you are a professional.

 

[lorider]

And my money would have been on Harold Worst versus anyone else on the list.

And my money would be on Shane Van Boening over Corey Deuel in a long race, in pretty much any game. Yet, no one is lobbying for Corey to be considered an amateur.

There ARE different levels of pros, yah know..

So... What's your point?

Short Bus Russ

My point is that Brian parks... under the current spa guidelines that they use to define an amateur player is eligible to play in the us amateur tournament.

I have not disputed he plays at a high level at all but to compare him to the pros you mentioned is a little bit of a stretch .

 

[KurtMHodges]

We have a few things in common...aside from.our opinion on Brian parks eligibility lol.

I also play masters for the very same reason as you. In apa I olay masters...9 ball travel and double jeapordy travel. I also play one night of usapl and may play another night if the division starts as planned. I have also played tap ...bcapl and Napa . Around here several people have played in all these leagues just as I have because we just like playing pool. Sure we all may have our preferences as to which league we may like best but I have never heard any one put down one league over another.

You mentioned sandbaggin. That word always comes up in a thread about leagues...apa in particular lol.

You are going to find people in any league that will use any means they can to win any way they can. The world is full of cheats in any competitive environment. In my experience I saw more suspect sandbagging in bcapl than any other league I have played in.

True that. I never have understood why people cheat by baggin, giving slug racks, sharking, etc. As an amateur you are playing for pride, and how can take pride in a win where you cheat. I don’t get it. I could see it (but not condone it) as a pro; as that is how you put food on the table. I saw it in Rook and Spade tournaments too (people giving signs) where no money was at stake. Why.

 

[lorider]

That post clarifies nothing. "Sponsorship" could include having a fundraiser at your local bar for a team's lodging in Vegas. That's not remotely the same thing as OB Cues giving a guy money for the purposes of brand promotion due to his skill at the table.

If a pool brand gives you money or free stuff and uses your skill and likeness as a way to promote their products, yes, you are a professional.

Do you know ob gives Brian money ? Heck not even sky gets money from Meucci as far as I know. I heard only Denis got a better deal out of the pros meucci sponsors.

I did not read where if Brian got free cues would negate his amateur status. He does not make the majority of his income from pool. He does not give exhibitions. The apa confers with all established pro tournament promotors concerning the status of their players. Apparently none of them have stepped forward and said...hey Brian parks is a pro. So what makes any of you qualified to determine he is a pro ?

I just cant get over the irony of thread after thread on this forum bashing apa about being a league full of drunks ...bangers....nits...patch and trophy players..non serious players who never have intentions of ever improving and then you have this uproar saying ...hey ! You have a pro in your league robbing all those trophies. maybe Brian is the biggest sandbagger in apa huh ? Lmao :grin-square:

 

[336Robin]

Yeah anyone that bets a dollar is a pro! That should shake some things up but there still won't be a new pro tour. I think they run that on Friday nights in bars nationwide!

 

[MattPoland]

It’s a weird topic. It could have been a generic question but instead it was pointed at a specific person citing their specific accomplishments. That set a context. In that context, the question answers itself.

How does an amateur lose their status? Well in the context of participating in the APA amateur event that Brian won 5 times...those rules are defined. That definition doesn’t disqualify Brian’s status for any of the suggested criteria provided in this discussion.

In the context of other events, the rules are up to the organizers of those events. There’s not one definition.

If you wanted a broad conversation about ideas in general for defining amateur status, you shouldn’t have constructed the OP with such a narrow focus/scope by invoking Brian’s situation. It set a predictable path for the conversation to come.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Tommy-D]

About the only thing I have to say on the matter is this.

I can't really form an opinion on what his status is as far as as amateur or pro,I have no control over it,it hasn't affected me because I don't think I've even seen him in person,so I'd prefer to leave that alone.

All I know for sure is that he is a HELL of a player,esp if you watch that match where he dominates Bustamante.

Lorider brings up a fascinating matchup. Him and Donny? Since I've only watched Donny play rotation games on 9ft Diamonds,maybe he has an edge there.

Here is the game I'd like to see,let them play a race to 15 APA rules 8 ball on a Diamond bar box,or better yet,a common bar box with something other than fresh Simonis .

Brian is more that capable of beating anyone on this planet a given set,and he's not having to play 50 dollar sets to pay the rent.

Let's face it,almost anyone would gladly swap places with him :thumbup:. Tommy D.

 

[trob]

I would say that since the winners of the MC receive $20,000 each and the losers $10,000 each, they are certainly not even in the same hemisphere as an amateur. In fact, they don't claim to be. So if your response to my question was an attempt at sarcasm you failed. Why is it only smart a**es respond on these forums? Unless you are mentally disabled, it is a logical question...

You did get he was making a joke right? If you need the joke explained to you let me know i’ll Be happy to you out lol


Good lord people relax..it’s just pool for god’s sakes.

 

[trob]

There is essentially your problem in this coutry . There is no governing body of pool. There is no one to say who should be or shouldn’t be. There is cue school to go through like golf or snooker has to designate who should be a pro. I’ve seen plenty of people playing in the pro tournament at valley forge who are good players but no where near pro caliber. This especially bad with the womens tournament where I’ve seen women playing who are barely above a mid level Apa player. In this country all it takes to be a pro is the money to get yourself in a pro tournament.

That answers your question right there! Without contract who decides in N. America?

Certainly not the APA. There is no PROFESSIONAL governing body for billiards in N.

America. And when there is they will be able to make those decisions. As for sponsorship,

that does not imply being a pro, but if you owned OB, and you had a chance of sponsoring

the 5 time amateur APA champion, who apparently all APA members know, why not?

It is better than sponsoring a 'Pro" who a vast majority of the APA never heard of.

 

[realkingcobra]

There is essentially your problem in this coutry . There is no governing body of pool. There is no one to say who should be or shouldn’t be. There is cue school to go through like golf or snooker has to designate who should be a pro. I’ve seen plenty of people playing in the pro tournament at valley forge who are good players but no where near pro caliber. This especially bad with the womens tournament where I’ve seen women playing who are barely above a mid level Apa player. In this country all it takes to be a pro is the money to get yourself in a pro tournament.

Been saying that for years, all it takes to be a Pro is the entry fee and a big ego!!!

 

[JohnnyOzone]

I got ya. I am irritated in that I was looking for opinions on what was acceptable for an amateur player, and it devolved into people arguing for or against any standard at all.

FYI, I too am a 5/5 and I also play in Masters because I like being a little fish in a big pond (because I learn a lot). I also play in NAPA and have friends in TAP. Sandbagging in amateur pool is a big problem, and I would think the governing bodies would want to keep baggers out. I am sorry, but if you win multiple open tournaments, you are not an amateur. You may not be a good pro, but you certainly need to move on.

I think you are frustrated because you seem to equate a certain skill level with "professionalism".

Bobby Jones was the best golfer in the world.....amateur
Harold Worst was the best pool and 3 cushion player in the world......amateur

SVB is a pro, Shaw is a pro, Men and women who make their living from the game, including instructors, etc. are pros

Now, if you set a standard for prize earnings, then you can make a case for many men/women in this country to be considered pros.
Too bad the BCA doesn't oversee all this - there needs to be one set of rules for everyone to follow - or choose not to follow and not be sanctioned

The APA guidelines seem to say "just ask us, we know people, they will tell us whether this person is a pro or not" How can that possibly go wrong?

 

[lorider]

I think you are frustrated because you seem to equate a certain skill level with "professionalism".

Bobby Jones was the best golfer in the world.....amateur
Harold Worst was the best pool and 3 cushion player in the world......amateur

SVB is a pro, Shaw is a pro, Men and women who make their living from the game, including instructors, etc. are pros

Now, if you set a standard for prize earnings, then you can make a case for many men/women in this country to be considered pros.
Too bad the BCA doesn't oversee all this - there needs to be one set of rules for everyone to follow - or choose not to follow and not be sanctioned

The APA guidelines seem to say "just ask us, we know people, they will tell us whether this person is a pro or not" How can that possibly go wrong?

You...trob and rkc get it. There is no standard set for what is and is not a pro.

As for apa guidelines ...well I agree with them.

Most people would agree a pro makes a living shooting pool . Brian does not do that.

Most people would agree that a pro gambles with other pros. Brian does not do that.

Most people would agree pros make a living giving lessons. Brian does not do that.

So what's left that may define him as a pro ? Oh yea ....he shoots pretty darn sporty and won 5 trophies in an amateur league tournament.

 

[noMoreSchon]

The MLB mat kes a great ball player a pro.
The NFL makes a great ball player a pro.
The NHL makes a great hockey player a pro.
The PBA makes a great bowler a pro.
The MLS makes a great soccer player a pro.
The PGA makes a great golfer a pro.
What makes a billiard player a pro?
No governing body for the sport, no professional status. PERIOD.