New Mosconi Cup format

[Mcdermott1981]

I've read so many articles over the past week about ending the Mosconi Cup because the US cannot compete with the Euro's. I agree that under the current format, we cannot compete on an even playing field.

I feel like I have a fairly easy solution to make this event more competitive. One of the largest hurdles that the US team currently faces is a single country playing against the best players from at least 50 European nations. That's just basic semantics.

What I propose is to add all of North American players to the current US Team. North America vs Europe. Continent against Continent. I would think that most would agree that a team comprised of SVB, Skyler Woodward, Bergman/Thorpe, John Morra and Alex Pagulayan would not only be fun to watch, but would definitely give the Euro's all they could handle.

What is everybody's thoughts on that?

 

[Jerry R]

I say we play on the 9ft Rasson with new cloth, balls, in a vest with dress shoes and a quiet crowd when it's held in Europe.

In the US we play 8 ball on a 7 ft Valley with one dead rail, a tear in the cloth and some obnoxious Jukebox music, wearing flip flops, sweat pants and an old t-shirt or hoodie.
Plus have a waitress walk through your line of sight randomly.

And maybe position the table so that if the cue ball is on the rail, you only have 57 inches for your 58" cue....

 

[sjm]

I've read so many articles over the past week about ending the Mosconi Cup because the US cannot compete with the Euro's. I agree that under the current format, we cannot compete on an even playing field.

I feel like I have a fairly easy solution to make this event more competitive. One of the largest hurdles that the US team currently faces is a single country playing against the best players from at least 50 European nations. That's just basic semantics.

What I propose is to add all of North American players to the current US Team. North America vs Europe. Continent against Continent. I would think that most would agree that a team comprised of SVB, Skyler Woodward, Bergman/Thorpe, John Morra and Alex Pagulayan would not only be fun to watch, but would definitely give the Euro's all they could handle.

What is everybody's thoughts on that?

I'm against it, but America's poor showing may force Matchroom to make a real change, not a cosmetic one like adding Johann as coach of Team USA.

This isn't even a rivalry anymore. It's more like the same bully beating up the same kid everyday.

 

[jasonlaus]

I've read so many articles over the past week about ending the Mosconi Cup because the US cannot compete with the Euro's. I agree that under the current format, we cannot compete on an even playing field.

I feel like I have a fairly easy solution to make this event more competitive. One of the largest hurdles that the US team currently faces is a single country playing against the best players from at least 50 European nations. That's just basic semantics.

What I propose is to add all of North American players to the current US Team. North America vs Europe. Continent against Continent. I would think that most would agree that a team comprised of SVB, Skyler Woodward, Bergman/Thorpe, John Morra and Alex Pagulayan would not only be fun to watch, but would definitely give the Euro's all they could handle.

What is everybody's thoughts on that?

Yeah, cause Shane was involved in almost half of Europe’s wins. Did Sky win a match? why can nobody see this???
You do realize putting players on the team that NEVER win(MC) matches probably is NOT a good idea?
Jason

You asked lol

 

[icucybe]

I feel like I have a fairly easy solution to make this event more competitive. One of the largest hurdles that the US team currently faces is a single country playing against the best players from at least 50 European nations. That's just basic semantics.

What I propose is to add all of North American players to the current US Team. North America vs Europe. Continent against Continent. I would think that most would agree that a team comprised of SVB, Skyler Woodward, Bergman/Thorpe, John Morra and Alex Pagulayan would not only be fun to watch, but would definitely give the Euro's all they could handle.

What is everybody's thoughts on that?

100%

 

[lorider]

I've read so many articles over the past week about ending the Mosconi Cup because the US cannot compete with the Euro's. I agree that under the current format, we cannot compete on an even playing field.

I feel like I have a fairly easy solution to make this event more competitive. One of the largest hurdles that the US team currently faces is a single country playing against the best players from at least 50 European nations. That's just basic semantics.

What I propose is to add all of North American players to the current US Team. North America vs Europe. Continent against Continent. I would think that most would agree that a team comprised of SVB, Skyler Woodward, Bergman/Thorpe, John Morra and Alex Pagulayan would not only be fun to watch, but would definitely give the Euro's all they could handle.

What is everybody's thoughts on that?

This subject has been brought up several times before. In tone of those thread some one put an image of Europe over USA . USA is larger than all th European countries combined.

So if I understand you correctly you are conceding the fact that American players are not as good as European players and we need Canada to bail us out. I can see that view.

Also...every time this subject comes up the same 2 names lee popping up that you mentioned. Alex and John....both very good players in their own right. Food for thought about adding those 2 or whoever you would want to add.

1. What makes you so sure they can play in the mosconi format and better than svb or Bergman? Do they have any more experience in alternating break and the rowdy environment than our players do ?

2. Its a team sport made up of 5 players. Do you think that by adding those 2 that the other 3 are suddenly going fo play any better than they have previously ? Or is it maybe we will only lose 11-5 instead of 11-2 if by chance those 2 players perform better than USA players.

3. Are Alex and John really that much better than svb...bergman ...skylar that they could be our saviors ?

I guess it all boils down to if Alex and John can perform under the moscoi format as good as the Europeans do. It seems that no current USA player can perform to our expections under that format and Alex and John cant win it alone even if they can perform under that format which is in question because they do not have any experience under that format and environment as far as I know.

Omw thing for sure..they might not help much but couldn't do any worse .....i dont think .

 

[ribdoner]

SKY...MOSCONI CUP...only if 7' VALLEY tables are used should he be considered

our players should be CAPTAINS choice until we have a logical method of choosing our best based on performance in place

 

[Mcdermott1981]

Lorider,

We are very thankful in this day and age for Google. Europe has almost 750 million people which is more than double the population of the US. Geography is a very important subject in the US.

In regards to certain players playing well in certain formats, what is your point? SVB is by far the best US player and a top 10 player in the world. Sky had a bad Mosconi Cup this year but played great in the previous two. Bergman has always played well under pressure hence him whipping the shit out of Jayson Shaw in a long race gambling format.

And in regards to Morra and Pagulayan, I believe their resumes speak for themselves. Both play very well under pressure. It might be tough to get Morra and Bergman to share a steak together pre-Mosconi Cup, but other than that, I love that team.

Keep your thoughts coming though. I'm all about making this team better. It's very easy to cut players down and be negative with your thoughts. I guess I'm just more of an optimist.

 

[AtLarge]

... Sky had a bad Mosconi Cup this year but played great in the previous two. ...

Woodward's Mosconi Cup record:

2015 -- 0-2 singles, 2-1 doubles, 1-0 teams, 3-3 total
2016 -- 0-1 singles, 1-2 doubles, 0-1 teams, 1-4 total
2017 -- 0-1 singles, 0-3 doubles, 0-1 teams, 0-5 total

3-year sum -- 0-4 singles, 3-6 doubles, 1-2 teams, 4-12 total (winning percentage of 25%)

Record counting a full point in singles, half a point in doubles, one-fifth of a point in teams -- 1.7-7.4 (winning percentage of 19%)

 

[Mcdermott1981]

I love these stats. I'm pretty sure over the last 10 years if you put Johnny Archer, Rodney Morris and Earl Strickland in that bunch, their stats would be similar.

What would you propose?

 

[Mcdermott1981]

Leaving Bergman off this years team was a joke. I understand the point system to promote more players playing more events, but you always want the best players in the final 5 regardless. Hatch is a great player but would get beat by every player on Europe's team this year. Same for Oscar. I love Oscar, but Karl Boyes ran over him at the Derby last year.

Just trying to come up with a good formula

 

[BRussell]

Lorider,

We are very thankful in this day and age for Google. Europe has almost 750 million people which is more than double the population of the US. Geography is a very important subject in the US.

In regards to certain players playing well in certain formats, what is your point? SVB is by far the best US player and a top 10 player in the world. Sky had a bad Mosconi Cup this year but played great in the previous two. Bergman always plays well under pressure hence him whipping the shit out of Jayson Shaw in a long race gambling format.

Keep your thoughts coming though. I'm all about making this team better. It's very easy to cut players down and be negative with your thoughts. I guess I'm just more of an optimist.

It doesn't matter that there are more people in Europe, we in the US have probably 100 times more pool players. The problem is the pool culture in the US vs. Europe, and that's not easily fixed.

Sure it's possible to artificially "fix" the Mosconi Cup to make it closer - adjust available countries, for example. But then you're just rigging the match. You might as well just give the Americans points to start.

Did you know there's a youth Mosconi Cup? It's called the Atlantic Challenge Cup, and the European youth beat the American youth just as bad as the European pros beat the American pros.

There's only one way for the US to win: Treat pool like a sport, with practice and training and drills and coaches and youth programs, and stop treating it as a vehicle for gambling in bars. Do that, wait 20 years, and then we'll win half the time. But I don't see any desire among Americans to do that, do you?

 

[Mcdermott1981]

I do not agree that the US has 100 times more pool players than Europe. Majority of US players are recreational players that play APA or BCA as an excuse to get out of the house and have a beer with some buddies. I do agree that Euro's take the game more seriously.

US players are very different. I would say a "Landon Shuffett" is a US example of a typical European Mosconi Cup player. Was raised learning the fundamentals at an early age and if he would have decided to be a just a pool player and not go to college, would be on that team now.

Most US players are "hustlers" and back room players. They have been raised to think of nothing other than themselves and they would do anything to earn some type of living at pool legit or not.

That is the problem. The Euro's are much more fundamentally sound and always work well as a team because it's more about the "Team" than about themselves.

I think Billy Thorpe is our future. Good kid with a good family and so is Sky! Shane is not a good leader and the coach of our team could be me and the results would be the same.

We need to dissect this situation overall and come up with a yearly system in the states that promotes not only pool, but the ideology of gamesmanship and teamwork. It's a catch 22.

That's why we all need to come together and come up with a solution as opposed to being negative and putting players down.

 

[banditgrrr]

*****This just in******

In order to have a more competitive match in 2018, Matchroom has decided to spot USA with 7 games on the wire.....William Hill still has the Euro's as a 2:1 favorite.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Adding all of North America won’t make any difference. Yes, you have Morra and Alex. But they are the only two top caliber players in Canada. Canada has the same problem as the US. No top players are coming up.

Mexico had zero top players.

 

[lorider]

I love these stats. I'm pretty sure over the last 10 years if you put Johnny Archer, Rodney Morris and Earl Strickland in that bunch, their stats would be similar.

What would you propose?

Stats for the players you mentioned ...courtesy of at large .. Stats for every player who has played in the mosconi can also be found in that thread.

Archer ....17 years
17-13 singles
27-23 doubles
50-41 team
5-4 trebles 2006 only year trebles played
55% overall

Strickland...14 years
24-12 singles
24-12 doubles
43-26 team
3-2 trebles 2006 only year trebles played
62% overall

Morris....10 years
10-8 singles
12-17 doubles
3-5 teams
47% overall

No where near similar.

Another interesting stat in that thread. Both jeannette lee and Vivian villiareal played one year and both were undefeated with 100% winning records. Shoots that theory that women cant play as good as men all to hell.

 

[Isaac]

There's only one way for the US to win: Treat pool like a sport, with practice and training and drills and coaches and youth programs, and stop treating it as a vehicle for gambling in bars. Do that, wait 20 years, and then we'll win half the time. But I don't see any desire among Americans to do that, do you?

100% right

 

[lorider]

Lorider,

We are very thankful in this day and age for Google. Europe has almost 750 million people which is more than double the population of the US. Geography is a very important subject in the US.

In regards to certain players playing well in certain formats, what is your point? SVB is by far the best US player and a top 10 player in the world. Sky had a bad Mosconi Cup this year but played great in the previous two. Bergman has always played well under pressure hence him whipping the shit out of Jayson Shaw in a long race gambling format.

And in regards to Morra and Pagulayan, I believe their resumes speak for themselves. Both play very well under pressure. It might be tough to get Morra and Bergman to share a steak together pre-Mosconi Cup, but other than that, I love that team.

Keep your thoughts coming though. I'm all about making this team better. It's very easy to cut players down and be negative with your thoughts. I guess I'm just more of an optimist.

My post was not meant to be negative or cut down players.

I consider myself an optimist also but at the same time I am a realist. Reality is mosconi cup is a team sport and adding 2 players from Canada may increase our chances to win but it takes a whole team to win

My statement that adding 2 players from another country to our team is not going to suddenly turn the usa players game around. That's not being negative ...that is reality.

 

[9andout]

I say we play on the 9ft Rasson with new cloth, balls, in a vest with dress shoes and a quiet crowd when it's held in Europe.

In the US we play 8 ball on a 7 ft Valley with one dead rail, a tear in the cloth and some obnoxious Jukebox music, wearing flip flops, sweat pants and an old t-shirt or hoodie.
Plus have a waitress walk through your line of sight randomly.

And maybe position the table so that if the cue ball is on the rail, you only have 57 inches for your 58" cue....

I love this!!! Greenie time. LMAO

 

[erhino41]

It doesn't matter that there are more people in Europe, we in the US have probably 100 times more pool players. The problem is the pool culture in the US vs. Europe, and that's not easily fixed.

Sure it's possible to artificially "fix" the Mosconi Cup to make it closer - adjust available countries, for example. But then you're just rigging the match. You might as well just give the Americans points to start.

Did you know there's a youth Mosconi Cup? It's called the Atlantic Challenge Cup, and the European youth beat the American youth just as bad as the European pros beat the American pros.

There's only one way for the US to win: Treat pool like a sport, with practice and training and drills and coaches and youth programs, and stop treating it as a vehicle for gambling in bars. Do that, wait 20 years, and then we'll win half the time. But I don't see any desire among Americans to do that, do you?

Exactly this!

Among the 100x more pool players (citation needed) there are probably 100x less serious pool players (citation needed). Most pool players in this country are not truly serious about playing pool. It is seen as a game, something to go do on a Tuesday while you have a few beers with the gang. They may buy all the gear and all the newest doo dads and ld shafts, but most don't even find the time to practice beyond a couple of friendly games on the practice table on league night. When I mention that I play pool to an acquaintance, they brush it off as non-sequiter, I might as well have said I like to play monopoly or checkers. The ones that do take interest typically end up being APA 4's who regale me with tales of how they came this close to "making it to Vegas!" or they make jokes about hustling in some form or another. The ones that do take it seriously tend to be bent on gambling. I'm not knocking either, that is the way they want to enjoy their time at the table. Who am I to tell them to do otherwise?

I understand there is also a contingent of players in this country who play purely for the love/healthy obsession of the game itself. I am finding that contingent really small though. I can't tell you the number of times I've heard "You shoot real good, you should start gambling, It'll really help your game." Or something along those lines.

I can't tell you first hand of the conditions surrounding pool in the rest of the world, but it just seems it is taken more seriously in Europe and Asia. They see it as a sport, we don't.

I see nothing being done anywhere around me to garner any interest in billiards by the youth of this nation. It seems when someone great comes along it is usually familial ties to the game that brought them to it, someone's mother, father, grand father, aunt or uncle was once a great shooter. I joined a kids league when I was 12 and never looked back. I have never since seen a functioning youth league. I have seen establishments trying to get something like that started but I have never seen it take. There may be places where this isn't true, this is just my experience.