Diamond Pro-Am Cushion Height?

You crack me up...

You attack ME, because you think that I don't know what I'm talking about. Then, you go back and forth with a mess of contradictory statements. It's all about whatever makes you look like the expert.

Then, you come right out and say the same shit that I said:
When a pool table plays right, there's a feel to it that i just can't explain, but when it's right, it feels right.

So there you go.. It's all subjective, with nothing quantifiable. What one person perceives to 'feel right', another may perceive to be garbage.

This very thing has been heavily debated here, many times over. Which plays better: rounded side up, or rounded side down? Historically, of all of the highly regarded technicians who have an opinion on the matter, you have been the ONLY one to insist that rounded side down plays better.

But, I guess everyone else is wrong.. Yet again..
 
You're right! You're always right!

The rest of us are just incapable of understanding the physics of a pool table. I apologize for wasting everyone's time.

I want you to think about this if you'll take the time to do so. That old saying of the cushion nose height being 63 1/2% of the ball +/- 1% means a nose height of 1 27/64"ths up to 1 29/64"ths or down to 1 25/64"ths that's a 1/32"nd of an inch up or down from that cenerline of the ball being 63 1/2%....agreed? Well, i hate to be the one to inform you but that only WORKS, when the sub-rail is exactly 1 11/16"ths of an inch thick....AND K55 profile POOL cushions like the Brunswick Superspeed or comparable cushions being used....Period! It falls flat on its face when rails are manufactured at different thicknesses or softer cushions are being used, or when BILLIARD cushions are being used with a much larger diameter nose profile. Changes have to be made to compensate for the playnof the table if you're using a cushion that's close to being OK, and not enough changes can be made to make cushions fit on 1 11/16" thick sub-rails if that was not they rails they were intended to be used on. But, as a mechanical engineer you CAN design any cushion to fit on ANY rails, and make them play perfect.....ON PAPER!!! But in the real world, so called mechanics are installing the wrong cushions on a daily basis just so they can get paid, because they don't know the DIFFERENCE anyway, and why is that???? Because like most all in this industry, they know just enough to make it LOOK like they know what they're doing, in which most all don't, they're just caught up in that same nose height theory you are. Like i said, even the table manufactures can't get it right, and you know who else can't get it right? The cushion manufacturers either! Want to test my claim to see if I'm right???? Call up Championship and ask them at what sub-rail thickness do they recommend in order to get their Tour Edition cushions play at their best???? Don't be suprised if they ask YOU how thick your sub-rails are first in order to answer your question, so they can look up the thickness of your rails on their cheat sheet.....designed by an engineer as to point out sub-rail bevels to adapt their cushions to any rails built....so they can sell you a set of cushions......OR, they have NO IDEA what you're talking about, same answer you'd get if you called up Artemis, or Klematch!!!!
 
I want you to think about this if you'll take the time to do so. That old saying of the cushion nose height being 63 1/2% of the ball +/- 1% means a nose height of 1 27/64"ths up to 1 29/64"ths or down to 1 25/64"ths that's a 1/32"nd of an inch up or down from that cenerline of the ball being 63 1/2%....agreed? Well, i hate to be the one to inform you but that only WORKS, when the sub-rail is exactly 1 11/16"ths of an inch thick....AND K55 profile POOL cushions like the Brunswick Superspeed or comparable cushions being used....Period! It falls flat on its face when rails are manufactured at different thicknesses or softer cushions are being used, or when BILLIARD cushions are being used with a much larger diameter nose profile. Changes have to be made to compensate for the playnof the table if you're using a cushion that's close to being OK, and not enough changes can be made to make cushions fit on 1 11/16" thick sub-rails if that was not they rails they were intended to be used on. But, as a mechanical engineer you CAN design any cushion to fit on ANY rails, and make them play perfect.....ON PAPER!!! But in the real world, so called mechanics are installing the wrong cushions on a daily basis just so they can get paid, because they don't know the DIFFERENCE anyway, and why is that???? Because like most all in this industry, they know just enough to make it LOOK like they know what they're doing, in which most all don't, they're just caught up in that same nose height theory you are. Like i said, even the table manufactures can't get it right, and you know who else can't get it right? The cushion manufacturers either! Want to test my claim to see if I'm right???? Call up Championship and ask them at what sub-rail thickness do they recommend in order to get their Tour Edition cushions play at their best???? Don't be suprised if they ask YOU how thick your sub-rails are first in order to answer your question, so they can look up the thickness of your rails on their cheat sheet.....designed by an engineer as to point out sub-rail bevels to adapt their cushions to any rails built....so they can sell you a set of cushions......OR, they have NO IDEA what you're talking about, same answer you'd get if you called up Artemis, or Klematch!!!!

I don't disagree with ANY of this. This is your best post on this thread. I have said absolutely NOTHING out of line with any of what you posted. I don't know why you keep insisting that my thoughts differ. It all goes back to what I said about defining the variables, to achieve a specific result.

The 63.5% is not constant. I alluded to that when I suggested that a 1 1/2" subrail, with k66 cushions, should merit a 1 3/8" nose height. That is 61% of the ball. See? I don't disagree. I don't know why you seem to insist that I think that the nose height should remain constant. You need to have an understanding of all variables, so that you know what variables to modify, in order to achieve your anticipated result. This includes nose height.

But, like I also said previously, not everyone who works on tables will understand or even care. I get it. Stop insisting that I don't.
 
Here's another thing to consider, NO cushion manufacture has ever gone back to a table manufacture and said to them. "if you're going to be installing our cushions on your tables, we'd like to recomend that you make the sub-rails xyz thick and that the bevel to mount the cushions be xyz for a nose height of xyz so that OUR cushions will play at their best"!!!
 
What is the correct nose height of the cushions on a Gandy big G????


Glen, I've been watching this thread for this answer but no one has come with one. What in your opinion and, I do respect your opinion, is the proper height and best rail cushion brand for an old Gandy big G?
 
Glen, I am grateful for the things that I have learned from you. However, you are an asshole. To be fair: in no way am I saying that I dislike you.. I may not care for the way that you handle yourself on this forum, but to each his own.

You fail to understand that there are other people in this world who are capable of thinking. There may even be some of us who have gone to school for mechanical engineering. There may even be some of us who have made a career out of mechanical design, and work on pool tables as a hobby/side-gig.

We are talking about pool tables: wood, rubber, and stone.. We are not sending them to the moon. The design is not nearly as complicated as you would like to believe. Sure, there are aspects of a table that make them play different. Of course, not everyone understands what those aspects may be, or the slight difference that affect play.

The beauty of pool tables: there is no perfect! There are no standards. Some tables definitely play better than others, and many people may not understand why. The fact that you modified the nose height on Stan Shuffett's table, simply for him to play a different game, is wrong. In a perfect world, all tables would play exactly the same, regardless of size, manufacturer, or the game being played on it.

To say that one table plays better than another is very subjective. There is no way to quantify it. Sure, you may notice a difference, but it's all feel, and it is all a matter of perspective. People's opinions vary greatly. What one person feels is a great playing table, another person may not care for. Case in point: For as many people that love the way a Diamond table plays, I would guess that there are just as many people who dislike it. They are a wonderful product, are very well built, and look very nice. However, they bank short and springy, and many people don't like that.

You perform great work. There is no disputing that. Though, to insist that you and Mark are the only ones capable of performing great work is quite foolish. You act as though you are artists, creating fine masterpieces that no one else could recreate or understand. When considering the finished product, that may be completely true. Many of the tables have been fine works of art.

However, when considering rail design, there should be no artistry. Rail design is science. You modify the variables to achieve a specific outcome. Understanding those variables is the key. To be clear, this is where you feel that you excel beyond the rest of the people in this business. You hold the belief that no one else could ever understand these variables in the way that you do. Now, maybe there are some in this business who don't consider all of the variables, or maybe they don't put the same emphasis on the variables, or maybe they just don't care.. Though, you cannot lump everyone together, and insist that no one else could ever figure these things out.

I understand your position. You have used this forum as a platform to establish dominance. I get it. The vast majority of business that you get, has been as a result of this forum. You have to do whatever it takes, to ensure that everyone who visits this forum will view you as the most knowledgeable pool table guru on the face of the earth. That's cool.. Whatever you have to do to make it through life.. I, on the other hand, have chosen to take a different approach. I treat everyone with respect, and understand that I can learn something from everyone.

All differences aside, I wish you the best, buddy.

Happy holidays!

This might be the finest post I've ever read on AZ. Post of the year candidate.
 
AGREED!
WTF? Different cushion setting for straight pool and 9-ball?
WTH? What's next ? Different setting for one-pocket ?

Complaining about engineering ?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SURO7-dtBYo
Complain there and tell Brunswick not to use Reometer.
Or don't do the rebound test.
https://youtu.be/SURO7-dtBYo?t=453

That was nice! Thanks for sharing. I'm super surprised Brunswick would go through the trouble of making that video, that probably only pool nuts like us would even care about. Maybe they do care about pool after all. ha h.
 
Glen, I've been watching this thread for this answer but no one has come with one. What in your opinion and, I do respect your opinion, is the proper height and best rail cushion brand for an old Gandy big G?

The sub-rails on the Gandy big G are 1 5/8"ths thick, so Artemis K66 profile Pool cushions combined with a 1 3/8"ths nose height.
 
Geoff, I had a question about one of the dimensions on your drawing. Should the distance between the feather strip and the top edge of the subrail change with changing angles? Or is that a constant value?

Thanks!
 
Just curious, does your screen name imply your financial status as in you use to be someone important but now you're not?

Not important, but yes. I was young and cocky and was doing great in the stock market to the point I thought I wouldn’t need a day job. Then, I went bust when the tech bubble burst in the year 2000. I sighned up here a couple of years later and made up that user name.

I kind of want to change it now, to be honest, but it’s been so many years. Ha ha.

What about you? Did you catch snakes with your bare hands and eat them raw? Ha ha ha.
 
Not important, but yes. I was young and cocky and was doing great in the stock market to the point I thought I wouldn’t need a day job. Then, I went bust when the tech bubble burst in the year 2000. I sighned up here a couple of years later and made up that user name.

I kind of want to change it now, to be honest, but it’s been so many years. Ha ha.

What about you? Did you catch snakes with your bare hands and eat them raw? Ha ha ha.
No, i built coin operated pool tables with snake skin laminated top rails, thus King Cobra pool tables.
 
Geoff, I had a question about one of the dimensions on your drawing. Should the distance between the feather strip and the top edge of the subrail change with changing angles? Or is that a constant value?

Thanks!

Speaking only of the models that I have created:


  • The 1 11/16" height dimension is a constant.


  • The distance from the back side of the featherstrip dado (edge of laminate/rail cap) to the nose of the cushion should be 2" (including cloth).

As such, changing the angle of the sub-rail will change the depth of the top surface of the sub-rail.
 
Brad,

Where did you get the sections for the wood rails and the cushions. Would you mind sharing? I think I’d like to sketch them also. I use Pro/E software.
 
Speaking only of the models that I have created:


  • The 1 11/16" height dimension is a constant.


  • The distance from the back side of the featherstrip dado (edge of laminate/rail cap) to the nose of the cushion should be 2" (including cloth).

As such, changing the angle of the sub-rail will change the depth of the top surface of the sub-rail.

Thanks for the clarification. So to keep the 2" length constant, do you need to adjust the dimension that I have shown with the "?" in the attached diagram as the angle changes? I think I'm reading your response to that question as "no".
 

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Thanks for the clarification. So to keep the 2" length constant, do you need to adjust the dimension that I have shown with the "?" in the attached diagram as the angle changes? I think I'm reading your response to that question as "no".

That dimension will change slightly, as the angle changes. It won't be much, but the 2" dimension is not super critical anyway. Yes, that is what keeps your play area a consistent 2:1 ratio, but even that isn't as critical as some would like to believe. I would say, out of all of the target dimensions shown, the 2" dimension has the largest tolerance.
 
Brad,

Where did you get the sections for the wood rails and the cushions. Would you mind sharing? I think I’d like to sketch them also. I use Pro/E software.

I have sections of cushions, from past installations. I have created models, based on actual measurements of these cut sections.

The rail section itself is modeled from measurements taken from a cut section of a Gold Crown 1 rail. Of course, the sub-rails in these models were designed by me, based on the cushion profiles that are attached to them.
 
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