45 degrees

[1ab]

In being asked to ‘watch’ a shot, to declare it fair or foul, most disagreements occur when assessing impacts with cue balls very close to object balls. I make it a practice to explain that primarily I’m focused on either a double hit or a push. Consistently players refer to 45 degrees to insure a good hit. I realize after reading the results of the Jacksonville Experiment and studying hi res images from Dr. Dave’s site that regardless of contact point on the cue ball, it will move ever so slightly forward before reacting to spin. Alternatively if it moves in the same direction with similar momentum more than expected (1-2mm), then rest assured I’ll call a foul. The 45 degree references a safe angle right or left from the line of the cue and object balls. Many believe 45 degrees down on the cue ball to be in this frame of reference and to be fair it is possible to develop a good hit at this position but usually ends up a foul. I worry I’m being too critical at times but I would rather see the league players expect a referee’s judgement to be similar to mine.

 

[chefjeff]

I don't think the 45 degree rule is so much for making sure of a good hit as it is for making sure both sides agree that the hit was not a foul. A fight-stopper, so to speak.

You might try this: Put you phone camera directly over the shot. There's a slow mo app that some here have that really shows how the hit went. I think that tech can eliminate the 45 degree "rule."


Jeff Livingston

 

[Bob Jewett]

In being asked to ‘watch’ a shot, to declare it fair or foul, most disagreements occur when assessing impacts with cue balls very close to object balls. I make it a practice to explain that primarily I’m focused on either a double hit or a push. Consistently players refer to 45 degrees to insure a good hit. I realize after reading the results of the Jacksonville Experiment and studying hi res images from Dr. Dave’s site that regardless of contact point on the cue ball, it will move ever so slightly forward before reacting to spin. Alternatively if it moves in the same direction with similar momentum more than expected (1-2mm), then rest assured I’ll call a foul. The 45 degree references a safe angle right or left from the line of the cue and object balls. Many believe 45 degrees down on the cue ball to be in this frame of reference and to be fair it is possible to develop a good hit at this position but usually ends up a foul. I worry I’m being too critical at times but I would rather see the league players expect a referee’s judgement to be similar to mine.

Just tell them that you will judge by the action of the cue ball and if the action cannot be explained except by a second (or continuous) hit, you will call a foul. Some players can actually learn the difference and what to look for. Others will adamantly claim that they did not foul because the cue stick was raised to 45 degrees (usually it's only about 30 in reality) and the fact that the cue ball skidded straight forward a foot through the ball before pulling backwards is irrelevant.

A push by the current definitions in the rules is a very special kind of shot. It has little to do with a double hit other than the cue ball is close to (or touching) the object ball.

 

[jsp]

See derby city classic rules, under the "Double Hits, Push Shots, Miscues" section...

https://derbycityclassic.com/the-rules/

Object balls frozen to the cue ball or very close to the cue ball require you to elevate the cue approximately 45 degrees to stroke the shot. This will be considered a legal shot even though a double hit may occur...

So at least for DCC, this 45 degree rule doesn't mean that you're guaranteed not to double hit the CB. Rather, it's a rule that states that the shot will be legal even if you double hit the CB, provided your cue is "approximately" 45 degrees to stroke the shot.

I understand what the rule is attempting to do. The rule wants to eliminate most of the guess work on deciding whether a double hit has occurred for close proximity shots. However, the issue with the rule is that it instead shifts the problem in determining whether "approximately" 45 degrees of elevation was achieved. Can you call a foul if your opponent shoots with only 40 degrees of elevation? What about 30 degrees? And how would you be able to prove that?

 

[chefjeff]

See derby city classic rules, under the "Double Hits, Push Shots, Miscues" section...

https://derbycityclassic.com/the-rules/


So at least for DCC, this 45 degree rule doesn't mean that you're guaranteed not to double hit the CB. Rather, it's a rule that states that the shot will be legal even if you double hit the CB, provided your cue is "approximately" 45 degrees to stroke the shot.

I understand what the rule is attempting to do. The rule wants to eliminate most of the guess work on deciding whether a double hit has occurred for close proximity shots. However, the issue with the rule is that it instead shifts the problem in determining whether "approximately" 45 degrees of elevation was achieved. Can you call a foul if your opponent shoots with only 40 degrees of elevation? What about 30 degrees? And how would you be able to prove that?

I have the opponent look at my cue angle before I shoot and I ask him if that is 45 degrees. If he agrees, I shoot along that line.

It really help to stop troubles before they begin, but it also changes how the game is played.


Jeff Livingston

 

[jsp]

I have the opponent look at my cue angle before I shoot and I ask him if that is 45 degrees. If he agrees, I shoot along that line.

I was thinking along the same lines. That would work...provided you don't drastically change your angle at the last stroke.

You can always video record your opponent with your cell phone.

Hmm, got me thinking. Why not simply video record all close calls with your cell phone so that there can be "instant replay" on the spot? I'm sure others have thought of this before.

 

[Jerry R]

A league I used to shoot in had the 45 rule in place and more or less if the cue was at ~45° anything goes. In general it worked well, but there was a few guys who would take advantage of it and force the cue ball around to break open shots etc..

What I don't understand is that the league I play in now wants you to hit it at a 45 but will still call foul if it was a double hit....if that's the case why force the 45?

I remember about 20 years ago watching trick shots on ESPN and (I think it was Mike Masey) would do a shot where he made a very tight fist with his grip hand and would use it as a stop against the edge of the table. Other than it looked like it hurt, it seemed to me a way of preventing a double hit and still being able to use a level cue.

 

[Bob Jewett]

A league I used to shoot in had the 45 rule in place and more or less if the cue was at ~45° anything goes. In general it worked well, but there was a few guys who would take advantage of it and force the cue ball around to break open shots etc..

What I don't understand is that the league I play in now wants you to hit it at a 45 but will still call foul if it was a double hit....if that's the case why force the 45?

I remember about 20 years ago watching trick shots on ESPN and (I think it was Mike Masey) would do a shot where he made a very tight fist with his grip hand and would use it as a stop against the edge of the table. Other than it looked like it hurt, it seemed to me a way of preventing a double hit and still being able to use a level cue.

There are multiple ways to avoid fouling a close ball. The hand-stop can only be used in certain situations. There are a couple of ways that are illegal for other reasons.

For me the choice in rules is between encouraging ignorance and encouraging understanding. It is not all that hard to understand what is probably a good hit and what is probably a foul.

 

[hang-the-9]

A league I used to shoot in had the 45 rule in place and more or less if the cue was at ~45° anything goes. In general it worked well, but there was a few guys who would take advantage of it and force the cue ball around to break open shots etc..

What I don't understand is that the league I play in now wants you to hit it at a 45 but will still call foul if it was a double hit....if that's the case why force the 45?

I remember about 20 years ago watching trick shots on ESPN and (I think it was Mike Masey) would do a shot where he made a very tight fist with his grip hand and would use it as a stop against the edge of the table. Other than it looked like it hurt, it seemed to me a way of preventing a double hit and still being able to use a level cue.

I think it's TAP that has the "if you are jacked up, no foul" rule. Which is of course silly because you can easily foul that way. Another league has, or had, a rule about space between the balls, again, a general thing that in no way would prevent an actual foul from happening. It's like saying "if your house is locked, you can't get robbed, but if it's unlocked, then you will be robbed." That is a false statement but is somehow good enough for some players and leagues LOL

Plus, are we talking about the angle of the butt of the cue, or the tip aiming to the tangent line? Seems the OP was about the tangent line change not the elevating of the cue to prevent a bad hit, or maybe it's about both. I just confused myself.

 

[1ab]

My goal is to discover better ways to understand and explain the differences in realizing what is and what is not a foul. This seems to have always been a rabbit hole that has lead to some interesting conversations. I very much appreciate the responses and plan on putting them to good use.

 

[chefjeff]

Which 45 angel is ok? That is, is it raising the cue butt 45 degrees or is it moving it sideways 45 degrees...or can it be a combination of the two with 22.5 up and 22.5 over, for example?

How about some smart guy here make an app that allows video and analyzes that automatically for a good hit? Or maybe it could be sent to the league op ands/he could make the call.


Jeff Livingston

 

[Cracktherack]

The double hit is when the pro pool player goes to the same car wash twice in one week with his laminated $10 bill.

 

[fastone371]

In one match I had against the fairer sex she had a shot where the cue ball was about a 1/2" from the object ball. I saw how she was lining up on the cue ball and I knew she was going to foul. She hit the cue ball center ball and the cue ball followed pretty much the same path and same speed as the object ball just a few inches behind. Of course I called a foul and she insisted it was a good hit. I tried to explain how the cue ball cant possibly keep up with the object ball and travel the same path at a pretty good speed with out a double hit on the cue ball. She didnt wanna hear it and then her rail bird boyfriend pops in and proceeds to tell me how he is a really good shot and has played for years and he can pull off that shot all the time with a legal hit on the cue ball. You are kinda stuck behind a rock and a hard place when there is not a neutral party available to watch a shot because in the case of disagreement the call goes to the shooter. It was only league, I won anyway so it wasnt a big deal but it was a wasted learning opportunity for her and her professional level shooter boyfriend. Using cell phones to record shots like that should be permissible, it will help everyone to learn the game a little better which could cause fewer disagreements.

 

[hang-the-9]

In one match I had against the fairer sex she had a shot where the cue ball was about a 1/2" from the object ball. I saw how she was lining up on the cue ball and I knew she was going to foul. She hit the cue ball center ball and the cue ball followed pretty much the same path and same speed as the object ball just a few inches behind. Of course I called a foul and she insisted it was a good hit. I tried to explain how the cue ball cant possibly keep up with the object ball and travel the same path at a pretty good speed with out a double hit on the cue ball. She didnt wanna hear it and then her rail bird boyfriend pops in and proceeds to tell me how he is a really good shot and has played for years and he can pull off that shot all the time with a legal hit on the cue ball. You are kinda stuck behind a rock and a hard place when there is not a neutral party available to watch a shot because in the case of disagreement the call goes to the shooter. It was only league, I won anyway so it wasnt a big deal but it was a wasted learning opportunity for her and her professional level shooter boyfriend. Using cell phones to record shots like that should be permissible, it will help everyone to learn the game a little better which could cause fewer disagreements.

What you do is line up the shot and ask him to demonstrate. There are so many rules that players don't know even if they play for a "long time" you can fill a book. For example wanting to do a "practice lag". No, there is no practice lag when you are starting a match. Or saying the ferrule is part of the tip. Or one I liked, arguing that if you hit a ball but the cueball goes into a pocket, that does not count for the 3 foul rule in 9 ball because he hit the ball. Silly people.

 

[greyghost]

There are multiple ways to avoid fouling a close ball. The hand-stop can only be used in certain situations. There are a couple of ways that are illegal for other reasons.



For me the choice in rules is between encouraging ignorance and encouraging understanding. It is not all that hard to understand what is probably a good hit and what is probably a foul.

Those same shots can of course be completed to the chest /and the end of the stroke. Or where the bicep closes with the forearm if one were a chicken winger lol.

If def matters how err fluffy one is, some shots I can’t do with a medium jacket on for example, I’ll pierce the cb too far.


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[greyghost]

Which 45 angel is ok? That is, is it raising the cue butt 45 degrees or is it moving it sideways 45 degrees...or can it be a combination of the two with 22.5 up and 22.5 over, for example?

How about some smart guy here make an app that allows video and analyzes that automatically for a good hit? Or maybe it could be sent to the league op ands/he could make the call.


Jeff Livingston

Right I see lots of the leagues here are 45 degree jacked up and it’s not a foul....and players push and double hit their asses off and it’s legal because they are jacked up. Smh


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