Thanks. I aim to swerve. :grin-square:
It's good to have you back on AZB sharing and questioning things.
Catch you later,
Dave
2nd ball break
- Thread starter LegitStick1234
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It's good to have you back on AZB sharing and questioning things.
Catch you later,
Dave
It is my experience that the 2nd ball break, hit well, is significantly more likely to make the 8 on the break. I find this to be especially true on the Valley bar boxes in Vegas.
One time I went out for APA Singles 8 ball. My first match was vs Brian Parks. I win the lag. Very first shot of the tourney, 8 on the break. I break dry, he runs out, and gets the 8 on the break. We go hill hill and he gets the 8 on the break again. The score was 5-4 in like 1 inning. Point is, we were both hitting that break well and made 3/9 8 on the break.
KMRUNOUT
I think the 8 on the break should never count. However, the 2nd ball break would still be preferred by many because the corner ball is so predictably pocketed.
Sorry to get side tracked.
Yes the 2nd ball break is very useful. I find that on big tables, I prefer to smash the front ball. On bar tables, especially Valleys, or ones with less than ideal conditions, it can be very tough to get a very frozen rack, and sometimes the best hit ever on the front ball still comes up dry and spreads them all out for my opponent. So for purposes of a runout friendly table, I'd prefer the head ball break.
On the Valley, there are some particular things that lean me towards the 2nd ball break. First, its a 7 footer, which means I'm that much closer to the rack while breaking. THis helps with accuracy, which is super important on the 2nd ball break. For some strange reason, it seems that with the 2nd ball break, when I make a ball they spread out good, and when I come up dry, there are many clusters. This *seems* like how it is, and the advantage of this should be obvious. If I'm playing on a Valley 7 footer, I'm playing APA, in which an 8 on the break is a win. Without question the 2nd ball break results in more 8's on the break. Finally, I think the 2nd ball break is overall more likely to make a ball on those tables.
On a big table, the odds of the 8 on the break are lower, and typically if I'm on a big table, its BCA or some rules where the 8 doesn't win. Also, the accuracy is tougher than on the bar box. Honestly I've never really given the 2nd ball break a very thorough testing on a big table.
On the Valley, I hit the 2nd ball about 2/3 full, low with a hair of outside. I don't really want to hit it especially hard...maybe 16mph or so. I just draw slightly to the side rail and out to center table. If I hit too hard, or too much english, I can scratch cross side or in extreme cases cross corner back towards the head end. So don't go nuts on the english or the speed.
Overall I think the 2nd ball break is extremely valuable and something any 8 ball player should learn to do with some competence.
KMRUNOUT
(null)
Great post
KMRUNOUT
Edit: apparently this post by Matt Poland was deleted? Too bad, it was a good post
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Great post
KMRUNOUT
Edit: apparently this post by Matt Poland was deleted? Too bad, it was a good post
Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
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Matt,
Pity you deleted your post after this, it was a good one. For the record I haven't seen your name here long but I like your posts, they seem helpful and informative.
Thanks,
KMRUNOUT
Ah. I noticed Chuck Fields also posted, and that one was deleted as well. Strange because neither seemed like particularly problematic posts. Oh well. There are so many far worse ones in this thread!
Anyway thanks for the heads up.
KMRUNOUT
Counting 8 ball as a win on the break is a joke. It should be spotted. I'm not looking to win the game on a fluky 8 ball, I'm looking to break and run every time. I break straight ahead from the spot, dead in to the head ball as hard as I possibly can with control. The idea is to squat the rock there and hope it doesn't get kicked around too much.
I'm not usually against other peoples methods, if that's what works for them then so be it. In the case of the second ball break I am very much against it and I will instruct other players, who wish to be taught, to learn how to break from the center. So much easier to control the cue ball and so much easier to get a good spread. The second ball break, every time I see it used, leaves a lot of trouble spots on the table.
Watch some pro level 8-ball, you won't see many second ball breaks. At least in the matches I have watched anyways.
I'm not usually against other peoples methods, if that's what works for them then so be it. In the case of the second ball break I am very much against it and I will instruct other players, who wish to be taught, to learn how to break from the center. So much easier to control the cue ball and so much easier to get a good spread. The second ball break, every time I see it used, leaves a lot of trouble spots on the table.
Watch some pro level 8-ball, you won't see many second ball breaks. At least in the matches I have watched anyways.
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Interesting stats, thanks. Do you have statistics on how often the second ball break is used versus the first ball break at the professional level?
I don't think its just about making the 8...that's just sort of a side effect. My #1 goal on the break is to make a ball. Under certain conditions, I find that I make a ball more often using the 2nd ball break. I also find that I scratch slightly less. When you are popping the head ball and trying to squat the cue ball, there is a huge tendency if you hit a hair off center on the head ball for the cueball to bounce back and bend into the side pocket. I see this scratch more than any other watching pros break 10 ball or 8 ball. I scratch like that enough that it makes me nervous.
Also, there are plenty of pro matches in which they break for the 2nd ball, but that is almost always on the bar table. I rarely if ever see pros break for the 2nd ball on a big table. I really only consider hitting the 2nd ball on bar tables. For example, have a look at this...really good example of pros effectively using the 2nd ball break: https://youtu.be/ALWVsuhScV4
Hope it helps,
KMRUNOUT
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Here's a pertinent excerpt (with bold text and blue highlight) from the article:
Recently, I viewed a large collection of online YouTube match videos to determine break effectiveness of the best 8-ball pro players. I looked only at final and semi-final matches of competitive men-only bar-table events to get stats for the best players. The tournaments from which I collected data were the 2014 US Bar Table 8-Ball Championship, the 2015 US Open 8-Ball Championship, the 2015 US Bar Table 8-Ball Championship, the 2016 Chinook Winds 8-Ball Open, and the 2016 Wyoming Open (Saratoga) 8-Ball Championship. The players involved included Shane Van Boening, Darren Appleton, Skyler Woodward, Corey Deuel, Rodney Morris, Dennis Orcollo, Justin Bergman, Jeffrey Ignacio, Mike Dechaine, and others among the best in the game. The total number of games reviewed was 169. 118 (70%) of those were 1st-ball power breaks and 51 (30%) were 2nd-ball breaks. A racking template was used in 105 (62%) of the 169 games.
Regards,
Dave
This is very interesting Dave. By chance do you have the stats for balls made and scratches using each type of break?
Thanks for the info.
KMRUNOUT
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Sorry I didn't read your post closely enough. I looked at the article, great info!! So it looks like the 2nd ball break in that particular sample resulted in a slightly better chance of making a ball, and also a slightly better chance to not scratch, and a much higher chance of making the 8. Very good to know!
KMRUNOUT
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Yeah, those 99 cent plastic racks are murder
On big tables, I use the head ball break with quite a bit more speed than I do with the 2nd ball break.
On a bar box, I'll use the 2nd ball break at about 75% of my normal speed with a little bit of inside english and a below center hit on the cue ball. I've had good results with that break over the years - both in getting a good spread on the balls overall and also in pocketing the 8 ball on the break (nice in APA and when playing the local bar's tournament near my house).
I find that the second ball break calls for more concentration on making sure that the cue ball makes solid, direct contact with the 2nd ball and also cutting back on the power is a must - ignore either of those two things and the propensity to scratch in the corner seems to go way up. Just my .02.
On a bar box, I'll use the 2nd ball break at about 75% of my normal speed with a little bit of inside english and a below center hit on the cue ball. I've had good results with that break over the years - both in getting a good spread on the balls overall and also in pocketing the 8 ball on the break (nice in APA and when playing the local bar's tournament near my house).
I find that the second ball break calls for more concentration on making sure that the cue ball makes solid, direct contact with the 2nd ball and also cutting back on the power is a must - ignore either of those two things and the propensity to scratch in the corner seems to go way up. Just my .02.
For those that use inside english, does your cueball bounce off the side rail straight back into the stack? Or does the spin suck it down to the end rail and come colliding into the stack from underneath?
(Note: I say “stack” in this limited context to mean the mass of moving balls located where the rack was. I know that is not the precise definition used for the mass of stationary balls where the rack was when playing straight pool or 1P.
(Note: I say “stack” in this limited context to mean the mass of moving balls located where the rack was. I know that is not the precise definition used for the mass of stationary balls where the rack was when playing straight pool or 1P.
Hi Matt -
I play the break with inside so it's more likely to go to the rail and right back into the pack. So basically, second ball down as squarely as possible with a little inside on the cueball. I get a way better spread and typically make a ball or two with this break.
Koop - YMMV
Inside wants to spin off the rail towards down table. Does that mean your bottom english is sufficient to draw back up table if the inside wasn’t there?