A video of PJ playing? That would be a FIRST. There has NEVER been one nor has he offered up any live demonstrations. They're all diagrams and 9 million words.
My vote is POST IT!
Improve Your Play To Pro Level Without Aiming
- Thread starter SpiderWebComm
- Start date
- Status
A video of PJ playing? That would be a FIRST. There has NEVER been one nor has he offered up any live demonstrations. They're all diagrams and 9 million words.
My vote is POST IT!
Spider, I love your passion for this! You rock! Seriously.
You are correct about non-aimers and atheists, too. LOL. Putting non-aimers in a subforum would kill them off in a week because the "threads" would all read the same thing, "just aim but don't really aim", yawn...
The non-aimers preach here because they don't care about others enough to think about their own headspace and to decipher their aim SYSTEM. And why should they? They run racks, so why should they work at anything?
But guys like us get as excited about a friend learning aim from us as when WE use a system to rock it!
However, I totally understand the non-aimers. I do. If they were honest, their system could be like this one:
1. They stand behind the shortest line between ob and cb
2. They come down pretty close on that line, pretty thick on the ob
3. If their cue stick is aimed well on the cb aim point, they're pretty good already (the rock in control, the hit shall be fine)
4. They trust their subconscious to help them stroke the cb to contact the ob correctly, and they enhance this by eyeing the ob and the pocket the way they need to, carefully, after the last practice stroke, before the final stroke, as their checkoff point
If something like that isn't an aim system, I don't know what is, because a lot of my pro buddies do those 4 steps already, and this system works for them... WELL.
Praise the Lord and pass the non-aimers!
PS. I love you, non-aiming friends, but you've got to lighten up, most pros "non-aim" like you but you've got to let the APA 3s get to APA 7s by using SYSTEMS. Please accept that not everyone is as talented and gifted as you (at pool if not forum posting). :wink:
Blessings, all!
Please don't hate me or Spider for truth telling, but I've had it. Non-aimers lurk or leave, we aim systems people fight enough already!
Thanks Matt, glad you appreciated it. I highlighted something you wrote that would absolutely happen. But that's fine with me as long as they're out of the AIMING forum.
I think the flame wars themselves are the point of focus to me. There are specific parties that are commonly at the center of them and that’s for the moderators to sort out. But it has turned into a Hatfields and McCoys situation. I see a lot of the flame history is causing observational bias. Any perceived slight or snark (real or not) turns into an escalating chain of clap backs that gets out of control quickly. It’s something I think would end pretty easy if people stopped laying bait and people stopped taking the bait.
After reading every post, I apologize for saying you were attacking every response. You only ridiculed my response, when I was trying to give you an honest answer on how feelers aim. And we do aim. It's just not as simple to describe as saying "stand here, look there, hold your cue here, then pivot or shift to there".
For someone as gifted with words as you are it should be simple to describe. Hell, you can put a 500 word post together one after the other on just about anything, AND DO! Put your thinking and awareness cap on and do it. You say you aim (which I know everyone does) describe it. WHAT ARE YOU SEEING BETWEEN THE TWO BALLS, POCKET, AND CUE.
We aim to send the cb where it needs to be based on a head full of shots where we've put the cb where it needed to be. The explanation is that simple. There are no details to give. It'd be like asking Clayton Kershaw how he pitches so well. He'd probably say, "Oh, I've been doing it a long time, was always good at, better than average I guess. The more I practiced the better I got." Then you'd say, "That's a load of crap! What a bunch of BS! I want specifics!" And he'd look at you like you've lost your mind, then he'd politely walk away.
Comparing Clayton Kershaw and pitching to aiming two pool balls is completely opposite from each other. Aiming and setting up to the balls is STATIC while pitching is DYNAMIC.
If you're going to make a comparison, ask a pro golfer on tour how they aim on the putting green. They ALL aim. You'll get many similarities and some differences but they aim and CAN EXPLAIN IT IN DETAIL.
Hence why I'm proposing two separate forums for aiming/non-aiming. It's been going on for over 20 years. I'm dead serious about it.
Perhaps a good analogy in pool is the cueball path after contact. Most people learn the 90 degree tangent line pretty early. Some even make an L with their fingers at the object ball to see it better. Some learn the 30 degree rule and some make the peace sign to see it better. Some use the Buddy Hall clock system to project which diamond the CB will track towards. But HAMB comes up with CB control very often.
Many players can simply see the CB path into and out of the rail with and without spin. If you ask them what they see, they just say “With a tip of high right, the ball will go here, here and track towards here.” If you ask how they see that, “I’ve hit this shot enough times that I just know. I can see it doing it. And if I change my english I can see it changing.” If you ask them how to build that skill, they might suggest doing ball making drills of the same shot over and over trying to land the cueball into precise position each time. Then repeat with a different english. Then repeat with a different shot.
I think that’s HAMB in action. I don’t think HAMB in aiming is all that different. “I just see the ball going in. I just get down on the shot and hit it where I need to in order to make it.” But, again, that shouldn’t be an argument against learning a system.
Why that works is all that neuro science about repetition and myelin sheaths which applies to skill building in general whether pool, baseball, golf, playing guitar or learning French.
Many players can simply see the CB path into and out of the rail with and without spin. If you ask them what they see, they just say “With a tip of high right, the ball will go here, here and track towards here.” If you ask how they see that, “I’ve hit this shot enough times that I just know. I can see it doing it. And if I change my english I can see it changing.” If you ask them how to build that skill, they might suggest doing ball making drills of the same shot over and over trying to land the cueball into precise position each time. Then repeat with a different english. Then repeat with a different shot.
I think that’s HAMB in action. I don’t think HAMB in aiming is all that different. “I just see the ball going in. I just get down on the shot and hit it where I need to in order to make it.” But, again, that shouldn’t be an argument against learning a system.
Why that works is all that neuro science about repetition and myelin sheaths which applies to skill building in general whether pool, baseball, golf, playing guitar or learning French.
So are you against shortcutting the million balls theory? Maybe start making more shots in the first 5,000 as opposed to how many more it takes for an individual to reinvent the wheel? How about the person who hits a million balls and is still equal to a 4 or 5 in APA? What should he do, hit another million?
That's what aiming systems do, shortcut it as well as provide more consistency and reliability. There are many different aiming systems and far better players than most of us have already put in the HAMB to develop them. Pro players, very good amateur players, and pro instructors developed, teach, and use them. Why are the amateurs on forums the ones who fight it and badmouth systems?
Have you reached the peak of your game with no further chance of improvement when it comes to pocketing balls? Are you that consistent and deadly?
Last edited:
This „shot picture“ is sth which comes up in EVERY system, method or how ever we may call it. Its just sth which will lead our eyes where they need to be ( stroke ignored now 
)— and to pull out the correct picture n the right moment consistently is the key.
Trusting blindly your stroke in that moment is the very most important thing imo.
Best from overseas
)— and to pull out the correct picture n the right moment consistently is the key. Trusting blindly your stroke in that moment is the very most important thing imo.
Best from overseas
You’re singing to the choir there. Those are good arguments for the HAMB purists to hear. My dad and older brothers are solid BB to A players from a HAMB / gambling tradition. They like to tease me about my approach to the game. I will make a ball, “Nice shot, did you pull out your protractor for that one?” Part of it is that I’m just a more analytical person and systems suite me. Research, study, practice, drills, analysis, videos, forums, etc. They’re more relational and would rather spend that time playing. When I see HAMB-purists poking at system users, I just think “there’s my dad.” And that’s enough for me to let them get it off their chest and not clap back. Because I don’t really come to the thread to engage the conversation they have to offer.
Sure you did.
Yes, you should - if only to show you're not the kind of guy who just makes stuff up because you hold a grudge.
We'll wait.
pj <- do I hear crickets?
chgo
I've been around a good number of HAMB players who play great from living on a pool table and being involved in heavy action for many years. It definitely can be done and I never said it can't. Your father and brother seem to be examples.
The one I know best at the top of the food chain who I play with is Allen Hopkins.
Doesn't get much better than him. But he didn't reinvent the entire wheel. He and others like him are very observant when playing other great tournament players and gamblers. They learn by imitation from the best.
This is an amateur pool forum. Most of us don't have the time to live on a pool table, inclination or opportunity to be around top pros every day. More money to be made in the real world. Short cuts are where it's at for improvement and consistency.
At least for me.
This „shot picture“ is sth which comes up in EVERY system, method or how ever we may call it. Its just sth which will lead our eyes where they need to be ( stroke ignored now
Trusting blindly your stroke in that moment is the very most important thing imo.
Best from overseas
Good post. From what I've gathered, when the brain is triggered to pull a specific memory (like a learned shot) from longterm storage, it brings the memory into an awareness where you can consciously determine whether or not it fits what you are presently seeing or experiencing. If so, good to go. If not exactly, then you make fine adjustments.
Has Spider ever explained what role, if any, he believes the subconscious plays in the execution of a shot?
I think you're spot on with this.
Not sure. But when a structural memory (primarily encoded into memory via visual/spacial processing) gets recalled from longterm memory storage, it immediately gets placed into short term memory, which is considered the working area for conscious thought.
This is where decisions are being made, where you compare stored/learned data to new data currently being processed. You don't consciously pull the stored data from memory....it happens automatically, subconsciously, based on present sensory inputs. If the inputs pull nothing from longterm memory storage then you have either not learned how to do what you are specifically looking at or thinking about, or you haven't yet learned it well enough to allow for easy recall (there aren't enough handles on the particular memory and it hasn't become a stable longterm memory). It can take years for some learned skills to become part of the permanent longterm storage. For some the process could take a few weeks.
People can say this is all mumbo jumbo or whatever, and that's fine. It doesn't change the fact that that's how we are able to develop excellent skills, muscle memory, hand-eye coordination, etc.... Knowing how to learn is a great benefit for anyone wanting to learn.
I think the ideas of how to learn are important. It’s like the old saying. An amateur shoots a shot in practice until they make it. A professional shoots it until he can’t miss. With or without a system, it demonstrates the value of setting up a problem shot and hitting it 20 times at least.
Yep. Quality repetition is it, and that quality largely depends on well-developed fundamentals, which are developed the same way -- through repetition.
Here's an interesting and easy way to add more sensory info into the learning/memory process. Enjoy a certain flavor of gum or mints while practicing. This adds another "handle" to the information you are trying to store/learn. When you're out somewhere playing, be sure to chew that same flavor of gum or mint. When you see a certain shot from practice, this one handle (vision) will be accompanied by other handles (taste/smell), and the memory of the shot is more likely to be recalled.
I know it sounds weird. Sorry.
Welcome back Dave.
Aimers an non aimers (if you wanna call it that) have one thing in common if they pocket balls well. I would say most people who actually can't explain their way is because you cant teach what the eyes have learned over many hours at the table.
So what do we ALL have in common....A learned PERCEPTION of the shot.
English...contact point ...fractional aiming you name it, if the ball is going in an your doing it well, is because you know what the shot looks like. Perception is key an you no.
Does it happen right when you fall in from your up right stance..don't think so. The eyes go back an forth looking for the right look when your down. (not saying you cant fall right on the shot line)
Anthony
You stirr up more trouble than your worth by assuming that any comment not sucking up to your beliefs is balderdash. You need to find a hole in the ground and crawl in it. You can then isolate yourself from the various opinions of those that don’t think exactly like yourself.
Makes sense to me. Good post.
- Status