Diamond Pool Tables - Degree of Difficulty

[Ralph Kramden]

No truer statement has been made! A tighter table favors a slower/softer hitting player. Therefore removes the stroke from the game and slows it down. Translation=boring and no longer a true game. Stroke and cue ball movement is part of the game and should be embraced as such. Anything less IMO is not acceptable.

IMO a tighter table does not favor the slower/softer hitting player.. I think it favors the
better player.. the player that has a good stroke, and knows how to play a true game.

Stroke and cue ball movement is certainly part of the game. For better players that is
not only moving the CB with draw and follow but actually knowing how to spin the CB.
Side spin can be used with speed if that player knows how to control squirt & swerve,
and he knows when to use side spin. For a player who doesn't know it's surely boring.

.

 

[Johnnybgood]

IMO a tighter table does not favor the slower/softer hitting player.. I think it favors the

better player.. the player that has a good stroke, and knows how to play a true game.



Stroke and cue ball movement is certainly part of the game. For better players that is

not only moving the CB with draw and follow but actually knowing how to spin the CB.

Side spin can be used with speed if that player knows how to control squirt & swerve,

and he knows when to use side spin. For a player who doesn't know it's surely boring.



.

Try firing a shot down the rail with ultra slight angle then do it again with a slow roll hitting the exact same point on the rail and tell me it makes no difference. The compression of the rail and therefore the rebound of the rail makes a HUGE difference. How can you say this with a clear conscience? Either you never hit a ball hard or you don’t play enough to make such a statement.

Tighter pockets absolutely slow the game down and change the stroke of a player. If you rattle enough pockets you inherently slow your own game down. Lowering confidence, removing stroke and playing an overall slower game.

 

[Ralph Kramden]

Try firing a shot down the rail with ultra slight angle then do it again with a slow roll hitting the exact same point on the rail and tell me it makes no difference. The compression of the rail and therefore the rebound of the rail makes a HUGE difference. How can you say this with a clear conscience? Either you never hit a ball hard or you don’t play enough to make such a statement.

Tighter pockets absolutely slow the game down and change the stroke of a player. If you rattle enough pockets you inherently slow your own game down. Lowering confidence, removing stroke and playing an overall slower game.

My table has 4 5/16" corner pockets at 142* with 3/16" neoprene facings.. My sides are
5" at 102*.. 860HR Simonis cloth with SuperSpeed cushions. 2 balls will not start in the
corners. I can hit those pockets with speed. The key word here is to HIT those pockets.

I didn't say you could hit the rails 2 diamonds up with speed and not have a ball jaw out.

I can hit my pockets with center CB or with spin, at the speeds needed for shape on my
next ball. I don't know how wide your pockets need to be, without slow rolling every CB.

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[owll]

I prefer to diamonds to GC's, they take some getting used to though. On GC's you try to shoot for the pro side of corner pockets and balls go every time. On diamonds, you have to shoot for the heart/middle of the pocket (it will jar balls if your an 1/8th" off either way shooting up table into the corner).

Yes they do bank shorter than GC's.

A couple of the things i like about the diamonds are....
1. if you hit a shot true (and hard) it will go in on diamonds, that is not always the case on shimmed up GC's.
2. You can make some flat out sick cut shots into side pockets on diamonds, that you can never make on GC's. (I have speared cut shots into sides on diamonds, that arent even possible to make at any speed on GC's). (Try some cuts that you think are impossible into side pockets, you will be surprised at how shallow an angle you can make balls on a diamond.

It will take time to get used to diamonds. It probably took me 18 months before I started to get somewhat comfortable on them. After you get used to them, you wont want to play on GC's anymore.

 

[Johnnybgood]

I prefer to diamonds to GC's, they take some getting used to though. On GC's you try to shoot for the pro side of corner pockets and balls go every time. On diamonds, you have to shoot for the heart/middle of the pocket (it will jar balls if your an 1/8th" off either way shooting up table into the corner).



Yes they do bank shorter than GC's.



A couple of the things i like about the diamonds are....

1. if you hit a shot true (and hard) it will go in on diamonds, that is not always the case on shimmed up GC's.

2. You can make some flat out sick cut shots into side pockets on diamonds, that you can never make on GC's. (I have speared cut shots into sides on diamonds, that arent even possible to make at any speed on GC's). (Try some cuts that you think are impossible into side pockets, you will be surprised at how shallow an angle you can make balls on a diamond.



It will take time to get used to diamonds. It probably took me 18 months before I started to get somewhat comfortable on them. After you get used to them, you wont want to play on GC's anymore.

Ok......I call bullshit! What difference does it make on any table what the side pocket is? It’s either tight or loose. You certainly aren’t going to shoot a ball down the rail into the side and as EVERYONE knows if you hit the tit on the side 99.9% of the time it’s not going in. Especially at speed.

Where do these comments come from?


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[Ralph Kramden]

Ok......I call bullshit! What difference does it make on any table what the side pocket is? It’s either tight or loose. You certainly aren’t going to shoot a ball down the rail into the side and as EVERYONE knows if you hit the tit on the side 99.9% of the time it’s not going in. Especially at speed.

Where do these comments come from?

A side pocket can be tight or loose.. BUT.. a side pocket less than 5" wide can be problematic.
The OB cut angle may get way too shallow, when the OB is between the spot and the long rail.

With wide side pockets the pocketing angle becomes closer to the rail for pocketing in the side.

Wider side pockets are too easy for banks, but a table should not have less than 5" sides. IMO

.

 

[Johnnybgood]

A side pocket can be tight or loose.. BUT.. a side pocket less than 5" wide can be problematic.
The OB cut angle may get way too shallow, when the OB is between the spot and the long rail.

With wide side pockets the pocketing angle becomes closer to the rail for pocketing in the side.

Wider side pockets are too easy for banks, but a table should not have less than 5" sides. IMO

.

Ok so now we are talking banking?


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[Ralph Kramden]

Ok so now we are talking banking?

No... I'm talking about shooting from between the foot spot and the rail.
The side pocket opening gets smaller, as the OB gets closer to the rail.

You can pocket from inside the spot with 5" pockets.. With 4 1/2" sides
the OB needs to be closer to the spot in order to clear the pocket point.
OB goes when closer to the rail with 5 1/2" pockets and it banks easier.

Side pockets should be 5 inches wide, no matter what the corners are.

.

 

[Island Drive]

Dcc 2018

I wonder if a new Diamond table is in the works? I don't believe they made any performance changes to them since the blue label in 2011 or whenever that was. And I don't believe any aesthetic changes have been made since about 2000.

Brunswick refreshes the GC every 10 or 15 years.

I played in the main room.

Before my match I did what I always used to do when I went on the road for a solid 3 years (2 weeks at home 2 weeks in play) and played all the bar table events, there were allot of em 89-91. I did well, but the demographics of bar table events had it's say. Anywho I would always criss cross the cue ball, and then up and down the long rail, from the head and the foot of the table. Bar tables ALWAYS have something going on....''it's a bar'' .

Before I started my match I did this on the 9' Diamond, I think it was table 15. Anywho....ZERO roll off. It was amazing....the first time in my life I had EVER been on a table with NO roll off anywhere. Was cool, and helpful for a great one pocket game.

 

[owll]

Ok......I call bullshit! What difference does it make on any table what the side pocket is? It’s either tight or loose. You certainly aren’t going to shoot a ball down the rail into the side and as EVERYONE knows if you hit the tit on the side 99.9% of the time it’s not going in. Especially at speed.

Where do these comments come from?


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OK, here let me try and help.....

the facings of the rubber(rail) on the side pockets, if they are angled outward from centerline of the side pocket, this will limit the angle that shots can be made into the pocket. i.e. if the side of the rail (facing) is angled outward 10 degrees, then any shot into this facing (point) that approaches 10 degrees will have to be shot with english (so that it spins off facing and into pocket) to have even a small chance of going in.

Also, pockets that have a deeper shelf will magnify the problem (described poorly) above.

Points on sides on GC's are angled slightly outward, and the side pockets have a deeper shelf.



I can hit shots into sides (on diamonds) at 20 degree angle from side rail. I can do this comfortably, consistently and with a lot of speed on the shot (3 rails back to other end of table is no problem).

25 degrees into side pocket, and power draw to end rail, then to opposite end rail....also no problem (on diamonds).

Shallowest cuts ive made on diamonds? Less than 10 degrees.

I wouldn't attempt any of those shots on a GC (unless it has had rails changed to play like a diamond).

(having those side rails cut so that facing is parallel to centerline of pocket makes a large difference in playablility)

(if this stuff doesnt help, you should just stick to league play)

 

[Johnnybgood]

OK, here let me try and help.....



the facings of the rubber(rail) on the side pockets, if they are angled outward from centerline of the side pocket, this will limit the angle that shots can be made into the pocket. i.e. if the side of the rail (facing) is angled outward 10 degrees, then any shot into this facing (point) that approaches 10 degrees will have to be shot with english (so that it spins off facing and into pocket) to have even a small chance of going in.



Also, pockets that have a deeper shelf will magnify the problem (described poorly) above.



Points on sides on GC's are angled slightly outward, and the side pockets have a deeper shelf.







I can hit shots into sides (on diamonds) at 20 degree angle from side rail. I can do this comfortably, consistently and with a lot of speed on the shot (3 rails back to other end of table is no problem).



25 degrees into side pocket, and power draw to end rail, then to opposite end rail....also no problem (on diamonds).



Shallowest cuts ive made on diamonds? Less than 10 degrees.



I wouldn't attempt any of those shots on a GC (unless it has had rails changed to play like a diamond).



(having those side rails cut so that facing is parallel to centerline of pocket makes a large difference in playablility)



(if this stuff doesnt help, you should just stick to league play)

Never played in a league. Never will. I don’t have the time for the commitment. With that said are you trying to say that a Diamond is easier with it’s deeper shelf than a GC? I am sorry. You may think so but, that is probably because you are used to your table.


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[mikemosconi]

I'll go further. All the pro tournaments today are on Diamond pro cut pockets (4.5"). What is usually the BIGGEST package for a major like the US Open, for the entire event? Maybe a 4 pack if 10 ball, and a 5 pack if nine ball? And if so, maybe only one single player got numbers that high. The idea that 4.5" pro cut pockets are too easy for pros is ridiculous.

Tight pockets are only a gambling tactic, for a player who thinks he's smarter than another one. In reality, they make zero difference to the gambling outcome. They might affect the shot selection slightly, but the better player will still win on 5" GC buckets, or 4.5" Diamond pro cut, or some dumb ass 4.0" modified one pocket table.

I would agree with the last statement- my reason for starting this thread is : As a very experienced player and a very good player, when I played on these Diamonds for the first time a few months ago- I INSTANTLY recognized and experienced a game completely different from all my years of playing - shots that went 100% of the time were just stumbling from pocket point to pocket point, banks were ridiculously shorter, I mean- my entire game was OFF by 30% minimum - I have tried to play on them for another dozen times or so in the past few months - no real change in my opinion of them, to me, that says that somebody designed these tables either wrong, or to purposely play very different from the past 100 years of pocket billiards. I do not like them and plan to avoid them for the most part. As stated previously, I do not play one pocket, maybe those that do love this set up - for straight pool - this table is a complete waste of my time, rotation games are OK on these tables ONLY if your position is good enough to get within a few feet of the object ball for each shot and resulting next position. You can almost forget having a six or seven foot shot and having to travel seven or eight feet back down table for the next shot - on a fairly full hit at that distance the speed required to pocket the OB and get back down table almost assuredly prohibits making the OB - it will rattle. Cut shots down rails seem to have mini millimeters of error or they just do not pocket - I do not have that accuracy - maybe some pros do consistently - but I am just playing for my enjoyment- not to win the US Open, so no joy in these tables for me! I'll be NORTH for the World Straight pool next month - the new room has Diamond tables- probably the newer ones, it is a newer room, I'll measure the pockets and be curious as to what 14.1 runs are produced that week. FYI- I played Tommy Kennedy a few months ago in a FL. OPEN tourney and he beat me 7-3, but he also rattled balls on the Diamond table that we played on that day, and he seemed very frustrated at times.

 

[ChrisinNC]

I would agree with the last statement- my reason for starting this thread is : As a very experienced player and a very good player, when I played on these Diamonds for the first time a few months ago- I INSTANTLY recognized and experienced a game completely different from all my years of playing - shots that went 100% of the time were just stumbling from pocket point to pocket point, banks were ridiculously shorter, I mean- my entire game was OFF by 30% minimum - I have tried to play on them for another dozen times or so in the past few months - no real change in my opinion of them, to me, that says that somebody designed these tables either wrong, or to purposely play very different from the past 100 years of pocket billiards. I do not like them and plan to avoid them for the most part. As stated previously, I do not play one pocket, maybe those that do love this set up - for straight pool - this table is a complete waste of my time, rotation games are OK on these tables ONLY if your position is good enough to get within a few feet of the object ball for each shot and resulting next position. You can almost forget having a six or seven foot shot and having to travel seven or eight feet back down table for the next shot - on a fairly full hit at that distance the speed required to pocket the OB and get back down table almost assuredly prohibits making the OB - it will rattle. Cut shots down rails seem to have mini millimeters of error or they just do not pocket - I do not have that accuracy - maybe some pros do consistently - but I am just playing for my enjoyment- not to win the US Open, so no joy in these tables for me! I'll be NORTH for the World Straight pool next month - the new room has Diamond tables- probably the newer ones, it is a newer room, I'll measure the pockets and be curious as to what 14.1 runs are produced that week. FYI- I played Tommy Kennedy a few months ago in a FL. OPEN tourney and he beat me 7-3, but he also rattled balls on the Diamond table that we played on that day, and he seemed very frustrated at times.

Playing on Diamond's with tour cut 4-1/2" corners, if it is played on newly installed Simonis 860 cloth as is the setup for virtually all pro tour events and major tournaments, is completely different (pockets playing far more forgiving) than playing on the same table after the cloth has been worn in for 6-12 months.

 

[MitchAlsup]

If this wasn't a pubic forum, I would say I *despise* Diamond tables. And, I would add, I can't believe most big tourneys these days are played on them, mainly due to, from what I've heard, Diamond is all about making them available to practically any tourney director / promoter putting on a tourney.

But, seeing as how this IS a public form, I won't say anything at all.

Well played sir, well played.....

 

[franko]

Thank you

Thank you to Greg Sullivan, a former player who took input from the current players of that time period to develop and manufacture a Table made here in AMERICA.

He also started the Derby City classic which may be the longest and strongest Tournament we have here in America.

The tables were made to try and offer some continuity since the Brunswicks were now being made in China and were as different from each other as snowflakes are to each other.

The goal was to try and develop a table that played with precision while offering a bit of a challenge . As far as being bad for pool because young players will get too discourage I find that to be way off. Young kids are fearless take the time to watch them on a skateboard or bicycle then ask yourself if a 4.5 in pocket is something that they will even notice. That being said Older people with diminishing eyesight yes I can understand them missing the 5 in pockets of days gone by.
If a kid is interested in something they will pursue it they will not over think it.

Again I want to thank Mr. Sullivan for his American ingenuity and all he has done for a Pool.

 

[simco]

When our diamonds (reds and blues) are recovered it takes about 3 weeks before
they start to play right.

 

[ChrisinNC]

When our diamonds (reds and blues) are recovered it takes about 3 weeks before
they start to play right.

That is generally the case not just with Diamond tables but with all newly covered tables, particularly covered with Simonis. Pockets play extremely forgiving particularly on easy paced shots, very hard to control the CB on a stop shot or a draw shot, balls bank funny, cue ball reacts funny off the cushions. It's virtually impossible to get reverse english to grab off the cushions.

With all that, nothing quite beats the thrill of playing on newly installed cloth on a table, which creates quite an interesting challenge particularly controlling / positioning the cue ball. Enjoy it as it won't last for long - before all the wear and tear, burn marks, break lines, stains, etc. start showing up.

 

[jtompilot]

Those Red Label tables should be used for fire wood. They suck big time. If Diamond was a car company they would recall them and replace the tops with Blue

 

[jrctherake]

Those Red Label tables should be used for fire wood. They suck big time. If Diamond was a car company they would recall them and replace the tops with Blue

I wouldn't even burn a red label diamond. Now, if it has been upgraded well, that's another story.

I HATE red label diamonds. I hate red label bar box diamonds even more. They truly, truly give a new meaning to the word "suck"..

For the life of me, I don't understand what diamond was thinking when they let those tables leave the shop.

No matter though, there are a few, very few players that actually like them.

To each their own....

Rake

 

[ShortBusRuss]

I wouldn't even burn a red label diamond. Now, if it has been upgraded well, that's another story.

I HATE red label diamonds. I hate red label bar box diamonds even more. They truly, truly give a new meaning to the word "suck"..

For the life of me, I don't understand what diamond was thinking when they let those tables leave the shop.

No matter though, there are a few, very few players that actually like them.

To each their own....

Rake

The Red Label Diamond I was practicing on cost me a tournament win against Morra first round of the One Pocket the year he won the Banks.. Had him down 2-1 and could not make a cross corner to close him out to save my life.

Didn't even know there was such a thing as Red Label / Blue Label. I just went thinking that all cross corners were super sensitive to speed. Didn't realize I had been playing on utter garbage.

Short Bus Russ