Tip Steer

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Rather than sit at your computer and debate, get on a table and experiment like I did for years and years.

You're right, I should play more but current circumstances prohibit doing so. I haven't played all that much in the last 20 years. I do remember, somewhere around that long ago, trying to estimate how many balls I've hit. You know, sat down and started multiplying hrs. times days times months and years and so on. It's hard to be sure cuz it's an estimation and could be way off but the number I came up with was around 5 million. Now in the last 20 years I've probably only hit maybe 500k so I am a little out of touch.

It's obvious that this type of grip is about clamping down with the front couple of fingers and releasing the last couple in an open-close motion. That's what we've been discussing all along.

That isn't the way I would describe what's being discussed. My contention is that using that grip will help in promoting a more level cue and prevent the introduction of extraneous mass in the stroke.
Clamping down &/or releasing, or pressure points, with this or that finger don't exist in my words or in the video at all.
You also seem to have missed greyghosts post where he explains what happens when using a full hand grip.
Whatever, I'm done also. You have a great deal of really good, knowledgable and thoughtful posts on here but believe it or not there're possibly some gaps in your knowledge of this game. I won't use the quote button on your stuff anymore, it seems to aggravate you if someone questions or disagrees with your POV.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm not an instructor but I feel qualified to comment on things I've learned through my own experience. I think there are different kinds of tip steer and you can't just say "tip steer is caused by X." Tip steer from a brand new player is going to be very different from tip steer from a veteran player, and the solution is likely to be different as well.

I was experiencing tip steer from the point of cb contact to follow through. We're talking 1/2 to a full tip of "steer." Small enough not to be really visible in real time. I seem to have worked it out (still tinkering) but the solution seems to be part realignment and part grip related, but I can't conclude anything definitive just yet.

Regarding Barry Stark who am I to criticize? I don't know him from Adam but it looks like he's forgotten more than I know. The one thing I do not like is the rotation of the cue. I have found that a small rotation like he shows is enough to impart a little left english (in my case, lefty). It doesn't often cause a miss but it does cause a small change in cue ball travel off a rail.

Anyway, i think the digicue is a neat thing, but you also need video feedback from straight on. The more types of data you have the more chance you have of solving the root cause of the problem as compared to finding a band aid solution.
 

nataddrho

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Anyway, i think the digicue is a neat thing, but you also need video feedback from straight on. The more types of data you have the more chance you have of solving the root cause of the problem as compared to finding a band aid solution.

As the inventor of the DigiCue, I absolutely agree that you will benefit tremendously from filming yourself. If you watch yourself make a flaw in video, you can visually remember what you look like the next time the DigiCue starts buzzing at you. Your fixes tend to stick a lot better.

Even if you never buy a DigiCue, I still recommend filming yourself.
 

Hinekanman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
To the OP. I too have tip steer left and have notice that my are at my elbow or wrist tend to drift away from my body which steers to the left a little. Now in order to not get the steer I have to focus so hard on my arm and the tip of the cue. If I just watch the tip I can see the cue go to the left. Now if I’m focused on it I can stop the steer. When I’m playing and doing my regular stroke it will be there almost every time. That damn 7.0 reading is like irritating the piss out of me. It did take a few months to realize I was even doing it. Now just have to fix it somehow. I tend to believe the left tip steer may be the reason I miscue on a lot of draw shots. I can’t even come close to hitting as low as others do.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As the inventor of the DigiCue, I absolutely agree that you will benefit tremendously from filming yourself. If you watch yourself make a flaw in video, you can visually remember what you look like the next time the DigiCue starts buzzing at you. Your fixes tend to stick a lot better.

Even if you never buy a DigiCue, I still recommend filming yourself.

I tried something like a DigiCue a couple of years ago (different brand) but the technology just wasn't there. I returned it and it left a bad taste in my mouth. I've been reluctant to try again. If I have a stroke that looks basically perfect on video are there still benefits to having a DigiCue? (Apologies to the OP in advance for the detour).
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You're right, I should play more but current circumstances prohibit doing so. I haven't played all that much in the last 20 years. I do remember, somewhere around that long ago, trying to estimate how many balls I've hit. You know, sat down and started multiplying hrs. times days times months and years and so on. It's hard to be sure cuz it's an estimation and could be way off but the number I came up with was around 5 million. Now in the last 20 years I've probably only hit maybe 500k so I am a little out of touch.



That isn't the way I would describe what's being discussed. My contention is that using that grip will help in promoting a more level cue and prevent the introduction of extraneous mass in the stroke.
Clamping down &/or releasing, or pressure points, with this or that finger don't exist in my words or in the video at all.
You also seem to have missed greyghosts post where he explains what happens when using a full hand grip.
Whatever, I'm done also. You have a great deal of really good, knowledgable and thoughtful posts on here but believe it or not there're possibly some gaps in your knowledge of this game. I won't use the quote button on your stuff anymore, it seems to aggravate you if someone questions or disagrees with your POV.

Nah. I'm not done yet. I don't usually change my mind but I'm changing it now.

I don't mind discussing and even yielding an issue to someone who has put in the time to actually experience what they're trying to say. It was clear to me from the beginning of this discussion that you haven't experimented with this stuff much at all.

I have experimented with this stuff. A lot . Maybe one day 'll post the titles of my extensive library of snooker books. Many of them are even out of print. I tested and tried everything I read, and that means snooker fundamentals.

So I pretty much know when someone's just talking and when someone actually speaks from experience. I respect the players and instructors who actually put their noses to the grindstone to test out ideas.

It's a really bad idea to try to convince people that your point of view is right when you spent little or no time actually trying it out and experimenting with it.
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dan White...Who said your stroke looks perfect on video? Is that your analysis, or one done by a qualified professional instructor? Two totally different perspectives. I've been perfecting video analysis for the past 30 years, and I have YET to see a "perfect stroke on video". There are certainly those out there...just saying, as an instructor, I have yet to see one! LOL

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

If I have a stroke that looks basically perfect on video are there still benefits to having a DigiCue? .
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dan White...Who said your stroke looks perfect on video? Is that your analysis, or one done by a qualified professional instructor? Two totally different perspectives. I've been perfecting video analysis for the past 30 years, and I have YET to see a "perfect stroke on video". There are certainly those out there...just saying, as an instructor, I have yet to see one! LOL

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Well maybe there is room for interpretation. Have you ever used apps like Coach's Eye? My definition of a perfect stroke in one in which the cue is drawn perfectly back on the shot line, and then goes forward on the shot line and follows through to it's conclusion also on the shot line. I figure if I can do that the rest is easy. :) So I guess to answer your question it would be my analysis done frame by frame with an app. Nobody on earth can see the small deviations I am talking about in real time. The differences between a perfect stroke and a near perfect one are apparent in how the balls move on the table if you know what you are looking at, though.

If you agree with my definition of a perfect stroke then maybe I'll send you video of one sometime. 30 years is a long time to wait! just kidding. Don't you think Allison has a perfect stroke? Hohmann?
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dan White...Sounds to me like your approach is pretty good. Yes, I agree that slow motion-frame by frame video is the ultimate way to diagnose and correct problems with one's stroke.
Coach's Eye is an excellent software program, as is Stroke Analyzer.
IMO these two things are better at analyzing stroke, than some other things out there.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Well maybe there is room for interpretation. Have you ever used apps like Coach's Eye? My definition of a perfect stroke in one in which the cue is drawn perfectly back on the shot line, and then goes forward on the shot line and follows through to it's conclusion also on the shot line. I figure if I can do that the rest is easy. :) So I guess to answer your question it would be my analysis done frame by frame with an app. Nobody on earth can see the small deviations I am talking about in real time. The differences between a perfect stroke and a near perfect one are apparent in how the balls move on the table if you know what you are looking at, though.

If you agree with my definition of a perfect stroke then maybe I'll send you video of one sometime. 30 years is a long time to wait! just kidding. Don't you think Allison has a perfect stroke? Hohmann?
 

nataddrho

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I tried something like a DigiCue a couple of years ago (different brand) but the technology just wasn't there. I returned it and it left a bad taste in my mouth. I've been reluctant to try again. If I have a stroke that looks basically perfect on video are there still benefits to having a DigiCue? (Apologies to the OP in advance for the detour).

New technology, and the analysis algorithms are robust. Of course I would recommend it, but I suggest you read reviews from the pool community on the DigiCue BLUE. They have been overwhelming positive considering how critical we as players know we are.

Regards,

Nate
Lead Engineer / Inventor, DigiCue Products
 

Low500

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
New technology, and the analysis algorithms are robust. Of course I would recommend it, but I suggest you read reviews from the pool community on the DigiCue BLUE. They have been overwhelming positive considering how critical we as players know we are.
Regards,
Nate
Lead Engineer / Inventor, DigiCue Products
Let's say, for the sake of information, that your device reveals that the user has a faulty stroke...with a sweep off to one side for example.
Now then, how does the user correct that issue?
(please don't say "see an instructor"...the ones I've seen don't play all that hot themselves).
So, how does the device go about correcting this issue the shooter may be shackled with?
Edited later: Just so you will understand, I am not trashing your device or questioning it's efficiency. I won one in a tournament and tried it out. I don't have a faulty stroke myself. It wouldn't make it's 'buzzing' unless I forced the cue to the side a little.
I sold it to another guy and he told me it was a good tool to get an answer, but after he got the answer he didn't know what to do to correct the 'swerve' in his stroke. Does the device do that now...(with your improved models)?
Thank you.
 
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Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Let's say, for the sake of information, that your device reveals that the user has a faulty stroke...with a sweep off to one side for example.
Now then, how does the user correct that issue?
(please don't say "see an instructor"...the ones I've seen don't play all that hot themselves).
So, how does the device go about correcting this issue the shooter may be shackled with?
Thank you.

It can't and that's probably why he is also recommending video analysis. Even then, with video, it can be like going down a rabbit hole. It is very easy to start changing things for the wrong reason. For example, if you sweep or steer the tip to the left you might see your hand pushing away from your body, causing the tip to veer left. So you might say, "OK, just stop your hand from pushing away." So you start stroking forward with a conscious effort at pulling your hand toward you so you can prevent it from causing the steer. This might work for awhile, but you would have a "cleaner" stroke if you fixed the real problem in the first place. That problem might be that your head is in the wrong position and is throwing your alignment off. If that is the real cause then you can continue to stroke through the shot naturally with you head in the new, "correct" position. Of course it will look wrong to you at first and you would need to shoot like this for awhile to feel comfortable with it again. It isn't easy to fix those kinds of problems. Trust me, I'm an expert at figuring out what "doesn't" fix the problem! :eek:
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Let's say, for the sake of information, that your device reveals that the user has a faulty stroke...with a sweep off to one side for example.
Now then, how does the user correct that issue?
(please don't say "see an instructor"...the ones I've seen don't play all that hot themselves).
So, how does the device go about correcting this issue the shooter may be shackled with?
Edited later: Just so you will understand, I am not trashing your device or questioning it's efficiency. I won one in a tournament and tried it out. I don't have a faulty stroke myself. It wouldn't make it's 'buzzing' unless I forced the cue to the side a little.
I sold it to another guy and he told me it was a good tool to get an answer, but after he got the answer he didn't know what to do to correct the 'swerve' in his stroke. Does the device do that now...(with your improved models)?
Thank you.

Why are you contributing on an ASK THE INSTRUCTOR forum and asking for feedback that does not involve asking an instructor?

One can use a device for feedback. One uses an instructor to help determine whether steering is the fault of poor gripping, bad stance, aim system or sight lines are off, etc.
 

Low500

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Why are you contributing on an ASK THE INSTRUCTOR forum and asking for feedback that does not involve asking an instructor?
One can use a device for feedback. One uses an instructor to help determine whether steering is the fault of poor gripping, bad stance, aim system or sight lines are off, etc.
I am so sorry for violating your sacred space here, oh honorable king.
Man, I didn't start the chat back and forth about the guy's device, somebody else did. I'm just rolling with the flow.
You guys can be soooooo testy. :boring2:
Get a life, ace, and relax-x-x-x-x.
I can't help it if you went busted in your last match. You just made a bad bet, don't take out your frustrations on me.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
I am so sorry for violating your sacred space here, oh honorable king.
Man, I didn't start the chat back and forth about the guy's device, somebody else did. I'm just rolling with the flow.
You guys can be soooooo testy. :boring2:
Get a life, ace, and relax-x-x-x-x.
I can't help it if you went busted in your last match. You just made a bad bet, don't take out your frustrations on me.

A personal attack is not answering the question. Don't say "no instructors, please," on an instructors' forum.
 

nataddrho

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Let's say, for the sake of information, that your device reveals that the user has a faulty stroke...with a sweep off to one side for example.
Now then, how does the user correct that issue?
(please don't say "see an instructor"...the ones I've seen don't play all that hot themselves).
So, how does the device go about correcting this issue the shooter may be shackled with?
Edited later: Just so you will understand, I am not trashing your device or questioning it's efficiency. I won one in a tournament and tried it out. I don't have a faulty stroke myself. It wouldn't make it's 'buzzing' unless I forced the cue to the side a little.
I sold it to another guy and he told me it was a good tool to get an answer, but after he got the answer he didn't know what to do to correct the 'swerve' in his stroke. Does the device do that now...(with your improved models)?
Thank you.

I've been asked a few times to put together a filmed video showing fixes for common stroke errors. Yes, this could be a good idea, but it could also be dangerous since your stroke is an extremely personal thing. If this were to be done, I would want it to be a collaboration with a very high level player formatted as a professional video through OB Cues, and would look a bit better than my animated video I made posted on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP9M_fZPNeE Others have suggested that we embed video clips and animations right into the app, which I think is a great idea.

Think of it this way. In billiards, you need to learn many different skills that are applied simultaneously in order to play the game consistently and effectively. But you can't learn them all at once, and a lot of the time you don't even know what the problem is. It can be very frustrating. The DigiCue at least helps to give you something to blame, so that you aren't chasing your tail on a plateau for your pool career. It identifies a symptom.

You absolutely can fix issues that the DigiCue identifies without an instructor. I did... it took me lots of trials of different things to try, but the DigiCue kept me on the right track until they were permanently fixed. This does work, and it does take a bit of practice and table time. We can't all get access to truely good instructors. Best example is that I was getting pain in my bridge arm rotator cuff after playing for a while, and also my Finish score on the Digicue would suffer when my shoulder started to hurt. As it turns out, I was still shooting with my stroke shoulder way more than I thought, and when I would get tired my shoulder timing would fall off and my body would roll its weight onto my bridge arm. I video-ed my self and also payed very close attention to what was happening. I fixed this with a more closed stance than what I've been using, and experimented with what made me physically more comfortable.

You can also take what you've learned from the DigiCue and ask an instructor or high level player. I've done this too. For example, when playing billiards, Mazin Shooni, Hugo Patino and Florian Kohler all told me on separate occasions to use my wrist and push through the ball more so then when playing pool. It is quite a different feeling. The follow through parameter on the DigiCue tracks this, but I don't think I would have mentally linked it to my wrist as quickly as if those guys verified me on it. This further helped fix my rotator cuff issue and now there is no pain and I have a lot more stroke power in both pool and billiards. Another example in pool, is that when playing with Mike Dechaine years ago, he said "I can smell wood burning". What he meant is that I was thinking about the technical aspects of my stroke way too much while I was shooting. He suggested that it needs to be an organic process when you are playing, and you need to identify a comfortable routine to consciously focus on when shooting. This was a mental thing that helped a lot with consistency, and my DigiCue performance went up.

Now, I feel that my technical aspects of the game are much better, and what I am lacking is the fortification in strength of my "mental simulator" of exactly where every ball is going to go on the table, under pressure of competition. I can play great by myself, but pressure affects me a bit because I rush. One pocket is absolutely great for this, but the better solution is to compete much more than I am. I can't find time right now to play in a lot of tournaments so I can't work on this, but that is OK because I know what to blame.

The point of all of this, is that the DigiCue can help "guide" you through all of the areas of improvement in your execution, instead of just hitting millions of balls and hoping everything falls into place someday. I think that having a DigiCue video for you to reference, players for you to talk to, instructors for you to visit, forums for you to post videos, and people to ask questions too, finding table time by yourself to experiment, and having many different resources available are all important things to do.
 

Low500

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
--------------------------------------------------------
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It can't and that's probably why he is also recommending video analysis. Even then, with video, it can be like going down a rabbit hole. It is very easy to start changing things for the wrong reason. For example, if you sweep or steer the tip to the left you might see your hand pushing away from your body, causing the tip to veer left. So you might say, "OK, just stop your hand from pushing away." So you start stroking forward with a conscious effort at pulling your hand toward you so you can prevent it from causing the steer. This might work for awhile, but you would have a "cleaner" stroke if you fixed the real problem in the first place. That problem might be that your head is in the wrong position and is throwing your alignment off. If that is the real cause then you can continue to stroke through the shot naturally with you head in the new, "correct" position. Of course it will look wrong to you at first and you would need to shoot like this for awhile to feel comfortable with it again. It isn't easy to fix those kinds of problems. Trust me, I'm an expert at figuring out what "doesn't" fix the problem! :eek:


I agree with this. Fixing an error is not easy. That's why it's important for each player to know him or herself at the table. Once you learn your tendencies, you can develop your own personal checklist that includes corrections on things that tend to recur in your fundamentals. We all have those things.

We all have our preferable ways of figuring out what those things are. Video helps. Some gadgets also can help. You can use these things to help locate the problem. But when it comes to correcting it, you just have to find the right combination of things, sometimes you can figure it out yourself and sometimes someone on the outside can spot it easier. But once you find a solution, put it on your checklist right away.

Then when you fall into a slump or start missing in competition, go through your checklist.

Slumps used to drive me crazy. But they don't anymore because I know myself at the table and my checklist helps me to quickly diagnose and fix whatever I may have fallen into.
 
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Low500

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've been asked a few times to put together a filmed video showing fixes for common stroke errors. Yes, this could be a good idea, but it could also be dangerous since your stroke is an extremely personal thing. If this were to be done, I would want it to be a collaboration with a very high level player formatted as a professional video through OB Cues, and would look a bit better than my animated video I made posted on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP9M_fZPNeE Others have suggested that we embed video clips and animations right into the app, which I think is a great idea.
Think of it this way. In billiards, you need to learn many different skills that are applied simultaneously in order to play the game consistently and effectively. But you can't learn them all at once, and a lot of the time you don't even know what the problem is. It can be very frustrating. The DigiCue at least helps to give you something to blame, so that you aren't chasing your tail on a plateau for your pool career. It identifies a symptom.
You absolutely can fix issues that the DigiCue identifies without an instructor. I did... it took me lots of trials of different things to try, but the DigiCue kept me on the right track until they were permanently fixed. This does work, and it does take a bit of practice and table time. We can't all get access to truely good instructors. Best example is that I was getting pain in my bridge arm rotator cuff after playing for a while, and also my Finish score on the Digicue would suffer when my shoulder started to hurt. As it turns out, I was still shooting with my stroke shoulder way more than I thought, and when I would get tired my shoulder timing would fall off and my body would roll its weight onto my bridge arm. I video-ed my self and also payed very close attention to what was happening. I fixed this with a more closed stance than what I've been using, and experimented with what made me physically more comfortable.
You can also take what you've learned from the DigiCue and ask an instructor or high level player. I've done this too. For example, when playing billiards, Mazin Shooni, Hugo Patino and Florian Kohler all told me on separate occasions to use my wrist and push through the ball more so then when playing pool. It is quite a different feeling. The follow through parameter on the DigiCue tracks this, but I don't think I would have mentally linked it to my wrist as quickly as if those guys verified me on it. This further helped fix my rotator cuff issue and now there is no pain and I have a lot more stroke power in both pool and billiards. Another example in pool, is that when playing with Mike Dechaine years ago, he said "I can smell wood burning". What he meant is that I was thinking about the technical aspects of my stroke way too much while I was shooting. He suggested that it needs to be an organic process when you are playing, and you need to identify a comfortable routine to consciously focus on when shooting. This was a mental thing that helped a lot with consistency, and my DigiCue performance went up.
Now, I feel that my technical aspects of the game are much better, and what I am lacking is the fortification in strength of my "mental simulator" of exactly where every ball is going to go on the table, under pressure of competition. I can play great by myself, but pressure affects me a bit because I rush. One pocket is absolutely great for this, but the better solution is to compete much more than I am. I can't find time right now to play in a lot of tournaments so I can't work on this, but that is OK because I know what to blame.
The point of all of this, is that the DigiCue can help "guide" you through all of the areas of improvement in your execution, instead of just hitting millions of balls and hoping everything falls into place someday. I think that having a DigiCue video for you to reference, players for you to talk to, instructors for you to visit, forums for you to post videos, and people to ask questions too, finding table time by yourself to experiment, and having many different resources available are all important things to do.
NOW you're talking.
That is a brilliant response, well thought out, and well communicated.
If you're having troubles with "pressure", there are two reasons...and this comes from 3 very good old pool players. Don Watson, Grady Matthews, and Danny Jones.
Reason #1: You're not totally confident deep in your mind that you're prepared well enough to do the job. Your device and its solutions solve that issue.
Reason #2: Your powers of concentration are weak.
Of the two, I personally believe the concentration aspect is the most important. When the player is totally immersed in the action and falls into "the zone", the brain takes over and the body follows. (the know-it-all railbirds always say "he's playing over his head"). Concentration and admittance into "the zone" can be improved through the use of subliminal programming. Jimmy Reid and W.Mosconi were two of the best at it.
This forum could use more posts like yours, in my opinion.
Stay well and keep on punchin'
Regards,
P. Lowenstein
 

Low500

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree with this. Fixing an error is not easy. That's why it's important for each player to know him or herself at the table. Once you learn your tendencies, you can develop your own personal checklist that includes corrections on things that tend to recur in your fundamentals. We all have those things.
We all have our preferable ways of figuring out what those things are. Video helps. Some gadgets also can help. You can use these things to help locate the problem. But when it comes to correcting it, you just have to find the right combination of things, sometimes you can figure it out yourself and sometimes someone on the outside can spot it easier. But once you find a solution, put it on your checklist right away.
Then when you fall into a slump or start missing in competition, go through your checklist.
Slumps used to drive me crazy. But they don't anymore because I know myself at the table and my checklist helps me to quickly diagnose and fix whatever I may have fallen into.
And those reasons are probably why you're one of the top instructors out there and worth the money.
And...you don't dog it in the clutch. I've seen you play.
Stay well, and keep on punchin'
 
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