I agree with you 100 percent. Things can easily change when there's a cue ball and an object ball. I've seen it many times and have even experienced it myself.
Tip Steer
- Thread starter Ironhead1970
- Start date
I agree with you 100 percent. Things can easily change when there's a cue ball and an object ball. I've seen it many times and have even experienced it myself.
Most of the times when I steer or swipe a CB is when I'm really needing to load up on English. A fair percentage these times there's a miscue. My target is at the limits and my stroke is not controlled. Disaster in the making.
Note: I'm one who thinks that swiping is legitimate but this isn't that discussion. Just used the word for the visual only. This discussion is about getting rid of a crooked stroke.
When I need that much spin, I have to remember the above before taking the shot.
One of the things an instructor showed me was to have a finishing target. Or I should say on every shot there's a pause at the end for analysis so to speak. Where did my tip land at the finish. Many times you can see the scratch in the cloth from your tip. If there, was it a straight line, or not?
This is what helped me straighten out generally. Problem is I don't take it literally, which I should.
I'm lazy and too old to think there's some future.
If you practice your stroke with a finishing tip target every single time, I believe it can help.
It helped me just realizing there is such a thing as the Finish. Noticing where your tip lands after the stroke.
Again I'm not an instructor, just a student.
Note: I'm one who thinks that swiping is legitimate but this isn't that discussion. Just used the word for the visual only. This discussion is about getting rid of a crooked stroke.
When I need that much spin, I have to remember the above before taking the shot.
One of the things an instructor showed me was to have a finishing target. Or I should say on every shot there's a pause at the end for analysis so to speak. Where did my tip land at the finish. Many times you can see the scratch in the cloth from your tip. If there, was it a straight line, or not?
This is what helped me straighten out generally. Problem is I don't take it literally, which I should.
I'm lazy and too old to think there's some future.
If you practice your stroke with a finishing tip target every single time, I believe it can help.
It helped me just realizing there is such a thing as the Finish. Noticing where your tip lands after the stroke.
Again I'm not an instructor, just a student.
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Just be aware that when you try to take note of where the cue tip ends up after the shot, it is probably not where the tip actually ended up. For instance, take a straight shot with no english. You want the tip to go straight through the cue ball and finish right on the straight shot line. When looking at such shots in slow motion, it is common to see the tip traveling off line, but then finding its way back on line at the end of the stroke (at least for me). I think what happens is that you know that the tip is supposed to be on the line straight ahead, so as the cue comes to a stop, you kind of steer it back to make sure it is on the line. This happens quickly and isn't something you can really see or control much. The trick is to get everything working in the correct alignment so that you don't have to fight to achieve a straight stroke.
If I had more time I would post up an example video of such a shot.
Dan, the main point was simply another tool to help close the gap between a wildly crooked stroke vs something straight(er). Having a finishing target is better than having only the CB. Follow through ..... to where?
Not arguing your point,
The concept helped me on this issue.
I understand and agree. I was just adding a small caveat for those who have pretty good strokes to start with.
This is a very helpful video. Thanks for the trouble you went to. I think there is another factor involved which this video points out. When the cue stick contacts the cue ball it meets resistance. The harder it hits the more effect that resistance has. Hitting a round surface with a rounded tip stick is going to create vibration and deflection in some direction away from pure straight. It is almost impossible to hit the cue ball in the perfect center with the perfect center of the cue. It is natural for the stick to "bounce" one way or the other a little. The correction back to center is probably that the shooter feels the movement and makes a sub conscious adjustment.
I see the best players in the world end up with the tip pointed up and/or offline at the end of the shot with the shaft vibrating. That is the whole reason behind trying to develop low deflection cues, isn't it? Let the stick deflect more so the cue ball deflects less.
It seems to me the problem is when the deviation is consistently off line to the same side. I deflect slightly left all the time. I went crazy trying to fix it and now realize it is more productive for me to learn to play and aim with it. The deviation is very slight and is totally consistent and I have been doing it for 40 years. If it is my stance or vision or stroke I don't know, I slightly favor hitting a tiny bit left of center and finish a tiny bit on that side on a straight shot.
"CB deflection" is not reduced by increasing the amount of "shaft deflection" - it's reduced by decreasing shaft "end mass".
A very flexible shaft with more end mass will deflect the CB more than a very stiff shaft with less end mass.
Using the term "deflection" on both sides of the description is confusing - that's why "squirt" is a better term for "CB deflection".
pj
chgo
I get all that. My point is the cue ball isn't the only thing that deflects. The reason we use chalk is to overcome the tendency of the cue tip to slip off the cue ball so we can hit it off center. If you hit a greased cue ball with a rounded greased stick the stick would almost never go straight through. It would always slide off one way or another and every hit would be a miscue.
My point is there are forces that push the tip of the stick off one way or another even with a perfectly straight stroke. The force of the impact can be significant and you have two different size round surfaces colliding with each other.
You can observe these reactions when you watch what happens to the cue stick on a hard hit with slow motion video. To evaluate how straight through the stroke is I think you need to hit dead straight and quite soft to minimize these affects. Then you only learn how good your stroke is a slow speeds. I just don't think it is an exact science.
Here are some slow motion videos of break shots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_yWqFYSggc Stick hits about center on the cue ball but is actually angling up and lifts the cue ball off the table then goes down to the table on the follow through
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26AAo2IzVOY Stick hits center ball notice the vibration of flutter after impact then eventually goes down to the cloth but it is more of an after thought from the player and the cue ball has already hit the rack. You can't see left or right so don't know how that ended
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcXyo_xTPVU On this one you can see the stick bend and bow out to the players left. The tip snaps back and forth from the force of the impact well beyond the player's control. It first moves to the player's left then back to the right and ends up center. How much was the players stroke and how much was simply the forces involved is anyone's guess.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L54nfcuKxQ The stick jumps way up the down and back and forth then ends up on the cloth sraight
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I guess it is difficult if you don't work on it, but so is everything else in life. I just posted a follow up video showing a pretty straight cue delivery, here:
https://youtu.be/bZPeinmn9ks
That wobble you mention isn't a stroke flaw, it is simply your stick bowing out from the impact and snapping back. Your stick bowed slightly to your right than sprang back causing a slight wobble as it stabilized. This effect is unavoidable and totally natural but the forces are pretty strong at high speed.
The direction the stick bows out on a perfect hit would most likely be a function of the characteristics of the grain of the wood. If you push straight back on the tip hard enough something has to give.
That is why I am not sure seeing where the stick ends up on the cloth is a perfect indicator. It is useful and accurate at low speeds but I am not sure it tells us much on a hard hit shot.
What do you think?
You make an interesting point that the grain of the wood could cause the shaft to bow in an unexpected direction. If I hit perfectly on the vertical axis I'd expect the shaft to bow and then deflect straight up a bit, but if the grain is at a 45 degree angle then maybe not. Interesting idea. My gut tells me this is an order of magnitude less of an issue as compared to flaws in the stroke due to hand pressure, incorrect line up etc.
If we are discussing wobble in the second video, which is a pretty straight stroke, IMO, then I think we are at the point of diminishing returns. In the first video there is a much greater amount of wobble. Is it due to the tip hitting off center or the hand/mechanics throwing the cue off line just after contact? Possibly both, and at different times. For me personally, I believe much of the issue is due to gripping the cue as a result of cue ball impact. I find that when I make an effort to let up on the grip pressure as I hit the ball things straighten out mostly.
I appreciate the discussion. Sometimes the slightest thing is taken wrong here and I offend someone without meaning to. I really enjoy talking about these concepts and increasing my understanding.
Yes, on a perfectly straight hit shot the stick still has to absorb the impact. Making the stick hollow or narrow increases the amount the stick is going to respond and lessen the dreaded squirt on the cue ball. IF the hit was actually clinically perfect the stick would still have to bow or splinter, it can't just compress or do nothing. So how it bows is a function of the angles, mass of the tip and the stiffness of the shaft compared to the mass of the cue ball and whatever other variables but it is always going to bow in some direction. If that is up or down you would get a more perfect reading from your tip position on the cloth at the end. But if it is significantly side to side I don't think anyone can control this motion and we all will react to it differently. That is why (I think) the grip comes into play. The tight grip senses all this and tries to fix it (probably bad). The loose grip lets it normalize naturally (probably better). But either way, all of that happens after the cue ball is long gone and only affects what we see when it is all over.
If you knew your own cue well enough you might actually be able to control the direction of the bow. You could make a mark on the stick to show the side you wanted up or something. Like you said "diminishing returns" and not worth doing, just fun to talk about. :smile:
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That's a good solution to a 'problem' that just won't seem to correct itself.
In a related situation...I knew a card cheat who had problems with his second deal even after mirror rehearsing for years.
As anyone knows, a second deal usually makes a slight "swish" when coming out of the stack as opposed to the sound of the top card coming off. His seconds were invisible..but the sound was there.
He changed grips, did all kinds of adjustments, but the swish sound was still there.
So he quit fighting the problem and started putting the "swish" IN...on all the cards dealt. Legit or false. End of problem.
You did a smart thing with your pool cue. WTG. :thumbup2:
Hey, speak for yourself, a**hole! :wink:
I've recorded some strokes where everything felt absolutely perfect and the cue ball ran after the ob straight into the pocket. I look at the video and see it is one of my worst strokes ever! lol. Compensating errors I suppose. Technically, nothing matters after the cue ball leaves the tip, but it is unusual for the stroke to be perfect all the way up to cue ball contact, and then it all falls apart just after contact. Usually things are going wrong before contact in my experience.
Bless you brother!!! You don't know how many instructors have tried to fix me. I think the card cheat should have learned to sing while he dealt. :smile:
FYI, that means this...
...doesn't happen.
pj
chgo
It does the first, 5 inches of the shaft
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None of the shaft “deflects more so the CB can deflect less”. It deflects the CB less by deflecting the same amount more easily.
pj
chgo