Ultimate Argument: Pendulum vs Piston Stroke

sbk510

sbk510

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I'm another one who would give you my two cents. I was a local instructor and I've won a few tournaments. Not big ones mind you. But I use the drill that I'm showing in the picture to make sure my cue is level on the backswing and the follow-through. Put your knuckles on the rail and drag them back and forth. That's level. I want my cue to come backwards and go forwards in the same plane and it doesn't matter what I do with my elbow. I've never hit one ball with my elbow.
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Bobkitty

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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RakRunr said:
As far as SPF (Set-Pause-Finish) goes, the pause between the backstroke and forward stroke has a purpose. Let's consider the stroke from a kinesiological standpoint. First, when you pull the cue back and then send it forward, you are changing directions (better known as "transitioning"). When you transition from moving in one direction to moving in the opposite direction, there is a moment when backward motion has ceased and forward motion has not begun. It may be extremely small, but it exists, and that moment is "the pause". What SPF does is take control of this fact and make it a deliberate part of your stroke, which enhances your control and rhythm. And we are not talking a very long time here - a half a second is plenty. Pausing also aids with the point below...

Finally, most people don't have the training or knowledge to be able to self-evaluate their stroke, so the old idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps isn't particularly helpful. Spending some time with a qualified instructor can go a long way towards improving your game. I know some people don't agree, and I'm cool with that. At the end of the day, all an instructor can do is provide you with information - it's up to the student to act on it.
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I disagree with the SPF style of stroke. I stroke back and forth and then pause when the cue stick is about 1/4" from the cue ball and then the backswing/ forward swing is a constant motion like the golf swing. The "pause" should be to verify aim and cue stick contact point. Very few golfers have ever stopped at the top. One on the tour now and Peter Jacobson. That's about it.
 
RakRunr

RakRunr

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Prairie dog said:
I disagree with the SPF style of stroke. I stroke back and forth and then pause when the cue stick is about 1/4" from the cue ball and then the backswing/ forward swing is a constant motion like the golf swing. The "pause" should be to verify aim and cue stick contact point. Very few golfers have ever stopped at the top. One on the tour now and Peter Jacobson. That's about it.
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I would disagree on both pool and golf. While the pause may be very short, it is not a constant motion to go forward and then back. There is a natural point where backward motion ceases and forward motion has not begun. You can't do both at once, not in pool, golf, hockey, pitching a baseball, swinging a bat, darts, Jalai, or any throwing-like motion. It's like the natural pause in breathing - there is a point where you have stopped inhaling but not begun exhaling (in the military, this is when we are taught to pull the trigger). I will agree that some athletes have a very fluid transition, and a short pause/gap time, but the transition is there nonetheless. If you watch slow motion golf swings, there is a distinct pause at the top of their backswing.

I also think of SPF as the "3-pause" technique: I pause and hold as you describe to verify aim and that the cue stick is going to strike the cue ball where I want. Then I pull back and pause, then I deliver the stroke and pause in the finish position. These are all done intentionally and the same on almost every stroke.
 
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Bobkitty

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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RakRunr said:
I would disagree on both pool and golf. While the pause may be very short, it is not a constant motion to go forward and then back. There is a natural point where backward motion ceases and forward motion has not begun. You can't do both at once, not in pool, golf, hockey, pitching a baseball,inging a bat, darts, Jalai, or any throwing-like motion. It's like the natural pause in breathing - there is a point where you have stopped inhaling but not begun exhaling (in the military, this is when we are taught to pull the trigger). I will agree that some athletes have a very fluid transition, and a short pause/gap time, but the transition is there nonetheless. If you watch slow motion golf swings, there is a distinct pause at the top of their backswing.

I also think of SPF as the "3-pause" technique: I pause and hold as you describe to verify aim and that the cue stick is going to strike the cue ball where I want. Then I pull back and pause, then I deliver the stroke and pause in the finish position. These are all done intentionally and the same on almost every stroke.
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In golf, if we watch the top of the back swing, the shaft is bending. The club head is going back but the arms and wrists are taking it down causing the bend in the shaft. This "loads" the wrists for power. Watch almost any golfer to see this. No pause except for a couple of golfers. SPF is a style but in my opinion, not the best.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

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RakRunr said:
There is a natural point where backward motion ceases and forward motion has not begun.
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I'm not convinced that's actually true, but so what if it is? It has nothing to do with whether or not an extended, intentional pause is recommended. I recommend it, but this "everything pauses" mantra is meaningless to me.

pj
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RakRunr

RakRunr

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Patrick Johnson said:
I'm not convinced that's actually true, but so what if it is? It has nothing to do with whether or not an extended, intentional pause is recommended. I recommend it, but this "everything pauses" mantra is meaningless to me.

pj
chgo
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The "mantra' (not how I would describe it) is just a recognition of the physical fact that a backwards and forwards motion that changes directions has a natural point where it's condition is neither moving forward nor backward - it is in transition from one state to the next. This point is static and can be extremely short lived. If you toss a ball in the air, there is a static point at the apex where it is no longer moving up and not yet falling, even though it may appear to be in constant motion. I'm not sure how else to express it, and if I'm not conveying the concept well I will accept that as my problem. No one has to agree with me, we can still be friends :smile:

My conclusion therefore is that 1) the transition from backward to forwards exists and 2) the two motions are distinct and separate. Rather than just letting it happen and accepting the results, I advocate that we do so intentionally to control it, therefore a pause should be intentional. Whether it is "extended" would depend on how you define that. Is half a second "extended"? How about a quarter? The Masters Academy standard is 1/6ths of a second (5 frames at 30 FPS)*, which is even less, and hard to see without still frame video analysis, so I'm not suggesting anything extreme. The goal is to prevent rushing the transition so that your muscles and brain have time to process it properly. It's also about developing a very fine level of control over your stroke and your process. Everything you do in the pool stroke should be on purpose, which adds to the consistency and repeatability of the stroke.

*[If anyone is unfamiliar, this is one of the hallmarks of our program - video analysis of your stroke at the frame level. It's truly eye opening.]

You say you recommend the intentional pause - can you discuss why you do so? What do you see as the benefits?
 
hitman22

hitman22

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Stroke!stroke!stroke!stroke!
 

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PoolBoy1

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I like the piston. My body told me which one to use. Just like Golf many try to force feed methods on bodies and minds that can't comprehend the info, so it becomes a struggle. Find a comfort Zone. Reyes and the like like to saw wood. Chang a piston player takes short and very few practice strokes and is now likely the best out there. I also don't like seeing the cue tip moving up and down the vertical axis.
 
Pete

Pete

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Can someone post a link or video of the different types of strokes please?

Bob Jewet said he does a J Stroke. Curious what stroke I use. Not truly sure...
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

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RakRunr said:
If you toss a ball in the air, there is a static point at the apex where it is no longer moving up and not yet falling
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Yeah, I'm familiar with the idea - but how do you know it's true? I suspect there's never a measurable moment where the ball isn't moving either up or down - but I don't base my stroke on that opinion.

My conclusion therefore is that 1) the transition from backward to forwards exists and 2) the two motions are distinct and separate. Rather than just letting it happen and accepting the results, I advocate that we do so intentionally to control it, therefore a pause should be intentional.
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I agree with controlling the transition, but whether or not a "pause" must exist isn't the reason - the reason for me is that the transition is a natural place to look for stroke issues and an intentional pause is a good way (at least theoretically) to eliminate that possibility. It's also the perfect time to "gather focus" for the shot.

Is half a second "extended"? How about a quarter?
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When I say "extended" I mean extended beyond whatever time you think every transition must include a "pause". In other words, any length of intentional pause.

You say you recommend the intentional pause - can you discuss why you do so? What do you see as the benefits?
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I did above, and in previous post(s). Much the same as yours, I bet.

Again, I'm not criticizing the advice to pause intentionally - obviously, since I recommend it too. I just question whether this often heard "everything pauses" is one of the good reasons for it. If others question that too it might detract from the clarity of your other good reasons for it.

...we can still be friends :smile:
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Sorry, only if you agree with everything I say. :)

pj <- a man's gotta have standards
chgo
 
A

AtLarge

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For some people, the pause before the forward stroke is also the point when the eyes shift from the cue ball to the object ball.
 
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PoolBoy1

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From the matches I saw, Sat. Sun, Mon. Closed won the days. Maybe the 10' table had something to do with it. I strongly prefer the closed and short, 80% of the time regardless table size but I play 2 slow cloth tables. Good enough for Mosconi.
 
DynoDan

DynoDan

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Not exactly sure of what mechanics actually constitute a ‘piston’ stroke, but I had always considered my own stroke to be a classic ‘pendulum’. But, recently have been having a lot of trouble pocketing long straight-in or table-length shots. Until, through trial & error I discovered that dipping the tip (raising elbow?) at the end of the stroke has (surprisingly) totally solved the problem (go figure).
 
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