Ultimate Argument: Pendulum vs Piston Stroke

tucson9ball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It sounds super-effective. Do you give lessons?

Actually, I have given lessons. But I did add a wink emoji to my post..:cool:

Anyhoo, I would suggest to all beginners to learn the pendulum because there are less moving parts. Besides, most beginners are not going to use a power stroke to pocket balls.
Once they get more comfortable with the stick and pocketing balls, you can introduce a lil elbow drop to get more power.

It's like learning to play tennis. Nobody uses top spin on their first lesson. Some things just naturally take time to develop.
 

hitman22

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Any of you all thought about duct tape to get that poor shoulder locked in to place so it wont move..Might as well tape your winky and tell your hips not to move ...:p
 

deanoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I asked out of ignorance what kind of stroke various players have,pendelum or push

i sincerely don't know what you guys are talking about

no one told me whether mosconi had which or efren or chohan or alex

am i correct in concluding that no one knows

i know i don't,i was wondering if this was just another az
discussion where people pretend to know something

no offense
 

hitman22

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i asked out of ignorance what kind of stroke various players have,pendelum or push

i sincerely don't know what you guys are talking about

no one told me whether mosconi had which or efren or chohan or alex

am i correct in concluding that no one knows

i know i don't,i was wondering if this was just another az
discussion where people pretend to know something

no offense
that its dean..and not much more but fun to read.....
 

ribdoner

SATISFACTION GUARANTEED
Silver Member
I asked out of ignorance what kind of stroke various players have,pendelum or push

i sincerely don't know what you guys are talking about

no one told me whether mosconi had which or efren or chohan or alex

am i correct in concluding that no one knows

i know i don't,i was wondering if this was just another az
discussion where people pretend to know something

no offense

i'll take a stab:

Mosconi................pendulum
Efren....................custom, with a lot of luck sprinkled in
Chohan.................custom, VERY CUSTOM
Alex......................piston
 

deanoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
hi adam

i don't know for sure what custom is
i do know that the long stick with heavy is allowing me to punch
with results like a stroke

i posted somewhere for someone to tell me if schmidt was kinda short stroking it
or what,but no one answered

i am confused about pool strokes
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
hi adam

i don't know for sure what custom is
i do know that the long stick with heavy is allowing me to punch
with results like a stroke

i posted somewhere for someone to tell me if schmidt was kinda short stroking it
or what,but no one answered

i am confused about pool strokes

To me, Schmidt hits from the armpit, just not as extreme as Mike Davis.....
...but it works....the British call it a 'pump handle action'...but it pockets balls.
One of the greatest practitioners of this stroke was Sam Blumenthal of Jacksonville FL...
...almost unbeatable at snooker in his own room...and played all games.
 

Cardigan Kid

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i'll take a stab:

Mosconi................pendulum
Efren....................custom, with a lot of luck sprinkled in
Chohan.................custom, VERY CUSTOM
Alex......................piston

Mosconi most definitely elbow drop....in his own words from his book....

Thanks to JoeyA for the Mosconi book text reference...
"As you stroke through the ball, YOUR RIGHT ELBOW WILL DROP SLIGHTLY and your grip hand should pivot backward at the wrist to keep the CUE TRAVELING ON A LEVEL PLANE"

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=214197
 

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
Mosconi most definitely elbow drop....in his own words from his book....

Thanks to JoeyA for the Mosconi book text reference...
"As you stroke through the ball, YOUR RIGHT ELBOW WILL DROP SLIGHTLY and your grip hand should pivot backward at the wrist to keep the CUE TRAVELING ON A LEVEL PLANE"

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=214197

Yeah, but think of how many more world championships he would have won if he had one of our instructors to change his stroke to a pendulumn?
 

ribdoner

SATISFACTION GUARANTEED
Silver Member
hi adam

i don't know for sure what custom is
i do know that the long stick with heavy is allowing me to punch
with results like a stroke

i posted somewhere for someone to tell me if schmidt was kinda short stroking it
or what,but no one answered

i am confused about pool strokes

Both Efren and Chohan appear to having some "loops" in there strokes, however, when shooting through they CB they know exactly where its going
 

paaca

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Both Efren and Chohan appear to having some "loops" in there strokes, however, when shooting through they CB they know exactly where its going
Exactly riboner! Every golfer will tell you that there are many stroke styles, whether long shots or putts, but the only thing that matters is what the club face is doing in the short strike zone when it is going through the ball. The pros are ample demonstration of the truth of that. No two alike.
 

RakRunr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Full disclosure: I am a student of Scott Lee and a certified SPF instructor. There are many thoughts I could share on this topic, so the following is not intended to be an exhaustive discourse.

You can absolutely be a good player with either a pendulum or a piston stroke. If you are already a world-beater who never misses and has great CB control, then you should just keep on keepin' on.

For the vast majority of us, however, consistency tends to be the thing we lack or desire the most. Consistency is the result of consistent (and hence repeatable) motion. The pendulum stroke, and SPF, are all about developing consistency and repeatability, of both the stroke and the shooting process. The ultimate goal of a pool stroke is to deliver the tip to the desired point on the cue ball, along the desired line, with the desired speed. A pendulum stroke is the simplest way to achieve this goal consistently by developing a repeatable (and measurable) stroke.

Along those lines, the only thing that truly matters is the moment of contact. Nothing you do after the tip strikes the ball can affect the outcome of the shot. So the notion of dropping the elbow to "keep a level plane" is unnecessary. In fact, the action required to do so introduces more joints and muscles. The more moving parts you have, the more that can potentially go wrong. That being said, since nothing you do after the tip strikes the cue ball can affect the outcome of the shot, then it follows that IF your elbow drop does not begin until AFTER you have struck the cue ball, then is not actually affecting the shot. Again, it is an unnecessary motion that adds physical complexity to your stroke, and it is harder to self-evaluate your stroke in that case, but under those conditions an elbow drop does not actually hurt your results.

As far as SPF (Set-Pause-Finish) goes, the pause between the backstroke and forward stroke has a purpose. Let's consider the stroke from a kinesiological standpoint. First, when you pull the cue back and then send it forward, you are changing directions (better known as "transitioning"). When you transition from moving in one direction to moving in the opposite direction, there is a moment when backward motion has ceased and forward motion has not begun. It may be extremely small, but it exists, and that moment is "the pause". What SPF does is take control of this fact and make it a deliberate part of your stroke, which enhances your control and rhythm. And we are not talking a very long time here - a half a second is plenty. Pausing also aids with the point below...

The second thing to consider is that the backstroke employs the tricep while the forward stroke employs the bicep. The pool stroke is really two motions, backward then forward. Pausing gives your brain and your body the time it needs to transition from focusing on the tricep motion to the bicep motion. When I work informally with folks, adding a short pause at the backstroke is almost always a "quick fix", and I have yet to see it fail to improve someone's shot making.

Another thought has to do with being either "process oriented" or "results oriented". Results are important, no doubt, but when evaluating, developing, and practicing the stroke, I believe in being process oriented. I would be wary of relying too heavily on whether you make a ball or not, or get position or not, when evaluating your stroke. Remember that once you strike the cue ball, you can't control the results, and there are plenty of things that can cause a shot to miss that are not the stroke's fault: choose the wrong english, or too much english, or not enough english, or fail to compensate for throw, or use the wrong speed, or simply aim poorly. My personal demon is failing to implement my full routine on an "easy" shot and missing, which is a mental lapse. Other common causes are dirty balls, excessive humidity, chalk on the cloth, poor cloth conditions, a slightly out of level table, etc. - all of which can cause a well stroked shot to miss. I'm not suggesting that it happens a lot, but the "rub of the green" is a very real thing.

Finally, most people don't have the training or knowledge to be able to self-evaluate their stroke, so the old idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps isn't particularly helpful. Spending some time with a qualified instructor can go a long way towards improving your game. I know some people don't agree, and I'm cool with that. At the end of the day, all an instructor can do is provide you with information - it's up to the student to act on it.
 

RakRunr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Joel, you could teach golf! The pause. Missing in so many strokes.

Funny you should mention that! A lifetime ago I actually went to school in Florida to be a golf pro. Life ended up taking me in a different direction, but I learned a lot :)
 
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