Double-hit rule at Derby WTF

ideologist

ideologist

I don't never exaggerate
Silver Member
This is posted on their website, rules for One Pocket. You can really jam through the balls if you lift your back arm? I thought you had to aim off of a ball you are frozen/tight on? For such an auspicious tournament with serious gamblers in attendance, I am stunned to read this rule, see below (the bold is mine):


Double Hits, Push Shots, Miscues

Object balls frozen to the cue ball or very close to the cue ball require you to elevate the cue approximately 45 degrees to stroke the shot. This will be considered a legal shot even though a double hit may occur. Even with an elevated cue, you cannot place the cue tip on the cue ball and shove it forward or it will be called a push shot and result in a foul. An unintentional miscue is not a foul. An intentional miscue is a foul.
 
ideologist said:
This is posted on their website, rules for One Pocket. You can really jam through the balls if you lift your back arm? I thought you had to aim off of a ball you are frozen/tight on? For such an auspicious tournament with serious gamblers in attendance, I am stunned to read this rule, see below (the bold is mine):


Double Hits, Push Shots, Miscues

Object balls frozen to the cue ball or very close to the cue ball require you to elevate the cue approximately 45 degrees to stroke the shot. This will be considered a legal shot even though a double hit may occur. Even with an elevated cue, you cannot place the cue tip on the cue ball and shove it forward or it will be called a push shot and result in a foul. An unintentional miscue is not a foul. An intentional miscue is a foul.
Click to expand...

That’s how we’ve been doing it at our pool room for awhile. No argueing.
 
They have that rule simply because there are too many tables compared to tournament staff, and the logistics of getting someone there to call a hit is not worth it. This way there is no foul "called" as long as you jack up.

Some local tournaments I've played in have similar rules.

Yes, it makes the game less "pure". But, it makes a tournament run smoother with less drama, which is probably the most important thing to keep players returning.

IMO:)
 
iusedtoberich said:
They have that rule simply because there are too many tables compared to tournament staff, and the logistics of getting someone there to call a hit is not worth it. This way there is no foul "called" as long as you jack up.

Some local tournaments I've played in have similar rules.

Yes, it makes the game less "pure". But, it makes a tournament run smoother with less drama, which is probably the most important thing to keep players returning.

IMO:)
Click to expand...

If the rule said "angle the cue approximately 45 degrees off the ball" it would also keep it smooth, and a clean hit with no possible double hit.
 
ideologist said:
If the rule said "angle the cue approximately 45 degrees off the ball" it would also keep it smooth, and a clean hit with no possible double hit.
Click to expand...
It is still possible to get a foul with both 45 degrees of elevation and 45 degrees of cut.

I think the DCC rule is not good for the game.
 
Ah yes, the "if you look like you are trying not to foul, it's not a foul" rule LOL

I always made fun of TAP for having a similar rule in place, just look like you are trying not to foul, and if the shot is actually a foul, it's OK because you tried. I would tell them that I really tried to make that ball, it just barely missed, so we can call it as a made shot right?

It's not really hard to tell if it's a foul, even for the "amateurs" that play in DCC, like SVB, Strickland, etc.. two very simple ways, if the cueball goes past the contact point on a very close distance if you are trying to draw, or if the cueball shoots forward at same speed of faster than the object ball. I explain that to D players and they get that right away.
 
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Bob Jewett said:
It is still possible to get a foul with both 45 degrees of elevation and 45 degrees of cut.

I think the DCC rule is not good for the game.
Click to expand...

Real players know it’s a foul but it saves the cheaters from getting into a bunch of arguments.
 
Bob Jewett said:
It is still possible to get a foul with both 45 degrees of elevation and 45 degrees of cut.

I think the DCC rule is not good for the game.
Click to expand...

I think the DCC ruling is okay...kinda like how we played money games for years.
....when every match at major tournaments is refereed, then the rules could get stricter.
...leniency on pushes and double hits don't offend me 'cause any masse shot is
technically a foul also...but we allow trapping whitey between the tip and the cloth.

How would this famous bank be called?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=2ca3keZXer8&usg=AOvVaw2NUEzsXdRNIPpZ3VweThdu
 
pt109 said:
...
How would this famous bank be called?
...
Click to expand...
Carefully with full consideration of where the money is. :groucho:

That's been studied with high-speed video and sometimes there is a double-hit foul and sometimes the cue stick bounces up and there is no foul. If I see action consistent with no foul, it's OK.

As for masse shots, there is longer contact than usual but generally no double hit and they're allowed by tradition, just as most miscues are condoned.
 
pt109 said:
I think the DCC ruling is okay...kinda like how we played money games for years.
....when every match at major tournaments is refereed, then the rules could get stricter.
...leniency on pushes and double hits don't offend me 'cause any masse shot is
technically a foul also...but we allow trapping whitey between the tip and the cloth.

How would this famous bank be called?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=2ca3keZXer8&usg=AOvVaw2NUEzsXdRNIPpZ3VweThdu
Click to expand...

If you think a masse is a foul then all jump shots would also be a foul, that would be ok by me except the masse, I love that shot.
 
Bob Jewett said:
It is still possible to get a foul with both 45 degrees of elevation and 45 degrees of cut.

I think the DCC rule is not good for the game.
Click to expand...

I recently quit a game over the way a fellow shot a ball. I told him there was
no way he could shoot straight into the ball without a double hit before he did it. What ensued wasn't
pretty to say the least causing me to unscrew. It was suggested that we play so I didn't pick him out to play but I accept the responsibility.

I'm unsure any arrangement would have suited this guy as he didn't understand the principles of a double hit nor would he listen to an explanation.
Not sure what to do in that situation except quit. What rule would help the game?.
 
We used to play where if the balls were less than a chalk-cube apart you HAD to shoot off at an angle. Kept the arguing/bit^*ing down to pretty much zero.
 
It’s just a rule, rules change all the time. If everyone is playing by the same rules no one has an advantage. I put this like the apa slop rule, people hate it but when two decent players play against each other how often does that rule change the out come of the match, no because people aren’t bad enough to slop them in! It’s a rule to avoid arguments like the derby dbl hit rule
 
It's not the Rule!

It's the people trying to interpet the Rule as they please.

A Double Hit is a Double Hit!!!!!! 45 degrees or not.

So....we either allow crap to happen or we school our players better.

randyg
 
Bob Jewett said:
It is still possible to get a foul with both 45 degrees of elevation and 45 degrees of cut.

I think the DCC rule is not good for the game.
Click to expand...

I agree!

It's just one more way to "DUMB THE GAME DOWN"....... you know, the "everyone gets a trophy type crap" to make it easier and "SMOOTHER".

Smoother it may be but a few years from now they'll say "if on the rail, you can move CB out 1"".


Rake
 
iusedtoberich said:
They have that rule simply because there are too many tables compared to tournament staff, and the logistics of getting someone there to call a hit is not worth it. This way there is no foul "called" as long as you jack up.

Some local tournaments I've played in have similar rules.

Yes, it makes the game less "pure". But, it makes a tournament run smoother with less drama, which is probably the most important thing to keep players returning.

IMO:)
Click to expand...
This.

I see it as akin to a “white lie”, where there’s more downside to being truthful. NAPA has this written into their rule book. When I played I would ask my opponent beforehand that if the situation came up that we could stand off to the side during setup to visually gauge where a 45 degree angled cue crosses the shooter’s body. Or against a background wall. And if the shot demanded that it could be close have someone else watch to see if the cue dropped below that mark on the final stroke.

A decent number of times the shooter would have to go sidearm or overhand when both opps and the neutral observer knew the fair/foul intersection point.

Agree it’s not pure but also it’s easy to gauge 45 degrees and easier to judge that versus observing balls.
 
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