Shaft recommendations

[Tennesseejoe]

As instructors, what shaft would you recommend for a C player who is seriously trying to improve?

A standard shaft with higher deflection or a low deflection shaft The player has a usual bridge length of 10 inches.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

As instructors, what shaft would you recommend for a C player who is seriously trying to improve?

A standard shaft with higher deflection or a low deflection shaft The player has a usual bridge length of 10 inches.

A shorter usual bridge length, until your ball pocketing skills improve.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

As instructors, what shaft would you recommend for a C player who is seriously trying to improve?

A standard shaft with higher deflection or a low deflection shaft The player has a usual bridge length of 10 inches.

It might depend on how the player likes to compensate for squirt. A 10 inch bridge is about right for using backhand english with a high-squirt shaft, but if they like to adjust by feel, then a low-squirt shaft might be better.

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

It might depend on how the player likes to compensate for squirt. A 10 inch bridge is about right for using backhand english with a high-squirt shaft, but if they like to adjust by feel, then a low-squirt shaft might be better.

pj
chgo

I think that if the student is just beginning to really use side spin, a low-squirt shaft will be easier to learn with. If side spin is already a significant part of their game, I'd agree with the above if they are used to a particular kind of shaft.

 

[bbb]

what do the instructors think about this......
if the student is really new (or old but going back to working on fundamentals)
use a regular shaft to practice your vertical axis drills.
it will magnify your off center (vertical axis )hits compared to an LD shaft

 

[FranCrimi]

Low deflection shaft for sure.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think that if the student is just beginning to really use side spin, a low-squirt shaft will be easier to learn with. If side spin is already a significant part of their game, I'd agree with the above if they are used to a particular kind of shaft.

I wonder how it would work to learn with both. It would surely be more educational, for what that's worth.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

what do the instructors think about this......
if the student is really new (or old but going back to working on fundamentals)
use a regular shaft to practice your vertical axis drills.
it will magnify your off center (vertical axis )hits compared to an LD shaft

I think it's the other way around.

A stroke error pivots the cue at the bridge like backhand english, so the shaft with its pivot point closest to the bridge will come closest to self-correcting like backhand english. Normal shaft pivot points and normal bridge lengths are in the same range (8-12"), so they tend to match most closely. So an LD shaft might work better for your drill.

pj
chgo

 

[bbb]

I think it's the other way around.

A stroke error pivots the cue at the bridge like backhand english, so the shaft with its pivot point closest to the bridge will come closest to self-correcting like backhand english. Normal shaft pivot points and normal bridge lengths are in the same range (8-12"), so they tend to match most closely. So an LD shaft might work better for your drill.

pj
chgo

patrick
you understand the science much better than i do.
but if i extend your logic
if the pivot point matches the bridge length on normal shafts and squirt and swerve are self correcting then why need an LD shaft at all?
again i am suggesting if you hit the cue ball off vertical axis ie you are putting unintentional english on the object ball
i still think a normal shaft will magnify your "mis hit" because of "deflection"
am i thinking this thru incorrectly??

 

[Patrick Johnson]

if the pivot point matches the bridge length on normal shafts and squirt and swerve are self correcting then why need an LD shaft at all?

Squirt (not swerve) is only self-correcting if you pivot right at the shaft's "natural" pivot point. Pivot anywhere else and the correction is either too much or too little.

again i am suggesting if you hit the cue ball off vertical axis ie you are putting unintentional english on the object ball

Sure, but the aiming problem is that you're under- or over-correcting for squirt (unless your bridge is right on the shaft's pivot point).

am i thinking this thru incorrectly??

I think maybe we both did - we haven't taken into account a couple of less obvious factors:

1. The squirt angle changes more per inch of pivot length difference for higher squirt shafts. This weighs in favor of your answer (higher squirt shafts are less forgiving).

2. Swerve (present on most shots) reduces the effect of squirt, making the "effective" pivot point of any shaft longer. This weighs in favor of my answer (lower squirt shafts are less forgiving).

Given these I'm not sure how the analysis comes out on balance. The difference is at least smaller than I thought.

pj
chgo

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Respectfully to all, pivot point shmivot point.

A shorter cue shaft/shorter cue is a boon for some newer players, to help with aim.

A heavier shaft/heavier cue is a boon for some players to help with aim--keeps the cue ball on line a little easier with a center cue ball strike, will exacerbate errors for hits off-center, though.

How about a free pool lesson, with the regular cue/shaft you have now? I'm available.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

A shorter cue shaft/shorter cue is a boon for some newer players, to help with aim.

How so?

A heavier shaft/heavier cue ... keeps the cue ball on line a little easier with a center cue ball strike, will exacerbate errors for hits off-center, though.

How so?

Making improbable claims without support isn't very good advertising for your instruction.

pj
chgo

 

[BilliardsAbout]

How so?


How so?

Making improbable claims without support isn't very good advertising for your instruction.

pj
chgo

I'm not the sole instructor who has noted a shorter cue is a little easier for newbies for basic center ball cut shot aiming. Others may disagree but I think this concept is more subjective on my part than objective/tested.

I'm not the sole author who has noted it's a lot easier to stroke a heavier cue straight than a lighter cue (in context, for a typical newbie who uses an overly strong, untutored grip and stroke). There must have been two dozen pool books in the last century that advised a heavier cue for a beginner, for maximal feel and heavy feel, and then moving to a lighter cue after developing to an intermediate, like starting with a 20 oz. than scaling back to a 19 oz. later.

But why did you phrase your second question the way you did? Was that necessary?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I'm not the sole instructor who has noted a shorter cue is a little easier for newbies for basic center ball cut shot aiming.

...

I'm not the sole author who has noted it's a lot easier to stroke a heavier cue straight than a lighter cue

Maybe these claims wouldn't seem improbable if you were able to answer the "how so" questions...

pj
chgo

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Maybe these claims wouldn't seem improbable if you were able to answer the "how so" questions...

pj
chgo

Your remark is post facto--you didn't like my answer so now you're justifying your prior comment.

I don't need to tell you about heavier objects remaining on line via momentum, do I?

 

[BC21]

.......

use a regular shaft to practice your vertical axis drills.
it will magnify your off center (vertical axis )hits compared to an LD shaft

Very true. Any deviation from the vertical axis will cause some cb squirt. Any swerve that happens is much smaller and not too significant for most shots, unless you are excessively elevating the butt of the cue. Use a regular non LD shaft, preferably a thicker/heavier one, and keeping the cue as level as possible you'll find that squirt is so much greater than swerve that you can simply ignore any swerve.

When shots are missed due to applying english, whether intented or unintented, the most likely culprit is cb squirt, not swerve, unless the cue is too elevated, causing more swerve than normal. I don't think normal swerve is enough to be concerned with for most shots, as long the cue remains as level as possible.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I don't think normal swerve is enough to be concerned with for most shots, as long the cue remains as level as possible.

I agree squirt dominates, but swerve is significant and must be included in the "net" compensation on almost all shots. If you really only compensate for squirt you'll miss most shots - since swerve is the minority effect, I think we just conflate both compensations in our minds so it seems like the "net" compensation is just about squirt (our subconscious goes "over our heads" to make the correct correction).

pj
chgo

 

[JerseyBill]

could you please name one of those books?
thankyou