Orcollo might try to beat the 626 record

[skogstokig]

While it can be said that the sharp-shooters like Dennis Orcullo, Chris Melling, Jayson Shaw, Joshua Filler, et al. have an established pedigree in 14.1 tournaments having little to no experience, it can also be said that the experienced 14.1 players have seen things (puzzles on the table to solve) that the sharp-shooters haven't seen, and the sharp-shooters would thus "wild-cueball their way" around the table, introducing a wildcard in their game (loose cue ball) that will in time get them in trouble.

-Sean

don't think filler hasn't played his fair share of straight pool back in germany, he is not just another jayson shaw who picked up the game in the states.

germany has a straight pool culture, whereas britain has 8-b and snooker. the same can be said about the netherlands, they play straight pool regularly.

among the pinoys i'm gonna go out on a limb and say that lee van is a better straight pool player than dennis.

 

[something_pool]

526 was definitely a magic number. Though there are reportedly 3 or 4 higher runs physically made without a miss this was the only one with proof. People have tried to beat it over the years and some really thought it just couldn’t happen for some reason. But now it’s 626. You seem to be saying it was just some random number a guy got to once and not an actual benchmark of incredible performance. Weird

Most of the time, when people play straight pool, there is no opportunity to break the high run record, because they're playing a race to some number (usually 100 to 200, well below the high run record). This is very different from, say, running a race or doing the long jump at the Olympics, where literally every time you compete in these events, you have a chance to break the record. So right off the bat, the pool of attempts at the record is much smaller than in most other sports where there is some kind of record. Because of this, we have no way of knowing how high the best 14.1 players could have run the balls if they really tried to set a high run record every time they played.

Aside from this, while it's true that many people have tried to beat the 526 over the years, I don't think the top pros have made *real* serious attempts. It took JS a long time to hit 626 -- during that time, he could have been playing in 9 ball tournaments and making money. The only reason that he decided to focus on the 14.1 high run, IMO, is because he didn't have a great chance of winning the major 9 ball tournaments and this was his best option to make waves in the pool world. Compare this to someone like Shaw or any of the top players today: taking a month or 2 to try to break the 14.1 record will likely cost them thousands of dollars in tournament/gambling winnings they could have made, and so it's not worth it to try. 14.1 hasn't been a lucrative game for decades, and so the players who could conceivably have broken the 526 record have not had a good financial reason to try. So no, I don't think it's a magic number by any means.

 

[sfleinen]

OK I stand corrected on the 526 miss -- my mistake. But the substantive point still stands -- 526 is not a magic number, and I don't believe it was even the best Mosconi could do. Mosconi didn't set out to set a high run record -- he just sort of continued playing after winning a match. The records you see in other sports like the fastest mile, or the long jump record, etc, are not at all comparable to the 526 record, since in these sports, the top pros are constantly actively trying to break the record, and there is a financial reward for breaking it. But hardly any of the top pros have ever really tried to break the 14.1 record because there's no reason to.

Also, I think you're underestimating just how difficult that 526 is (was) to break. John Schmidt broke it not for money (lord knows there was nothing in it, and he even had to skip a couple tournaments to dedicate the time to do it). No, he did it because it NEEDED to be done. And, because once broken, it offered John a unique differentiator -- the title of, The Person Who Finally Broke Mosconi's 526. Or, "Mr. 626." From now on, when John walks into a tournament room, people will look and say "he's THAT guy." That kind of notoriety can't be bought, even if there was a financial incentive. Love him or hate him, you can't deny that notoriety.

Let's look at it a different way. Are you familiar with Alex Honnold? The free solo guy? He free-solo'ed Yosemite's El Capitan's 3,000-foot vertical face not because there was any financial incentive. No, he did it because in his mind, he needed the challenge and it needed to be done. (Personally, as an arborist and tree surgeon myself, I disagree with the "needed to be done" part as NOTHING is worth risking my life and existence with one false move, but that is what was in his mind, just like with John Schmidt.) Alex Honnold now stands as the ONLY person to achieve this feat. It's likely to stand for all time.

"What if he falls? The Terrifying Reality Behind Filming 'Free Solo'."
https://youtube.com/watch?v=3-wjmIFlnNo

(WARNING: this video is not for the acrophobic or weak-stomached when it comes to heights.)

-Sean

 

[something_pool]

Let's look at it a different way. Are you familiar with Alex Honnold? The free solo guy? He free-solo'ed Yosemite's El Capitan's 3,000-foot vertical face not because there was any financial incentive. No, he did it because in his mind, he needed the challenge and it needed to be done. (Personally, as an arborist and tree surgeon myself, I disagree with the "needed to be done" part as NOTHING is worth risking my life and existence with one false move, but that is what was in his mind, just like with John Schmidt.) Alex Honnold now stands as the ONLY person to achieve this feat. It's likely to stand for all time.

Yeah, I think this is exactly my point. Alex Honnold has definitely achieved something impressive in getting this record. But that's not the same as saying that this record is the best that anyone could do. It's just what one incredibly dedicated person did. If everyone were as dedicated as Honnold, then there's no telling how many people could have done the same. Similarly with the 526 -- if all of the top pros were dedicated to breaking a high run record, there's no telling how high it would be.

 

[Cornerman]

It seems that there are conflicting reports from even Mosconi himself on whether he in fact missed or quit. I've never seen that book that you quoted, so thanks for sharing. But in this video interview, you can see Mosconi himself say that he never missed, but quit voluntarily: https://www.youtube.com/embed/qRKw56oAA-E (at ~7:18 in the video). Whatever the truth is, whether he missed or not, isn't really the point, though..

It's an important point if people are going to be saying it on the internet (because for every one person who writes the misinfo, 20 people will read it an potentially perpetuate the rumor.

Mosconi missed the 6-ball at shot 527, per eye witnesses and his own autobiography.. My feeling is that Mosconi was remembering an even higher run (a higher run of 609 unfinished according to Charlie Ursitti) when he got tired and quit. The 526 was documented that he missed.

Freddie <~~~ John missed, too. At 627

 

[something_pool]

My feeling is that Mosconi was remembering an even higher run (a higher run of 609 unfinished according to Charlie Ursitti) when he got tired and quit.

Mosconi says in the video that his highest run was 526, and that he did not miss, but quit. Again, not really important to the substantive point, but there are conflicting reports of whether he missed or not from Mosconi himself. There isn't just one source of truth on this.

 

[sfleinen]

It seems that there are conflicting reports from even Mosconi himself on whether he in fact missed or quit. I've never seen that book that you quoted, so thanks for sharing. But in this video interview, you can see Mosconi himself say that he never missed, but quit voluntarily: https://www.youtube.com/embed/qRKw56oAA-E (at ~7:18 in the video). Whatever the truth is, whether he missed or not, isn't really the point, though.

The substantive point is: 526 is not a magic number, and whether he missed or not, I don't believe it was even the best Mosconi could do. Mosconi didn't set out to set a high run record -- he just sort of continued playing after winning a match. The records you see in other sports like the fastest mile, or the long jump record, etc, are not at all comparable to the 526 record, since in these sports, the top pros are constantly actively trying to break the record, and there is a financial reward for breaking it. But hardly any of the top pros have ever really tried to break the 14.1 record because there's no reason to.

I see that you edit your post since I last replied.

That video you show has several flaws in it, not the least of which it was edited during the run because Mosconi missed at one point during that run demonstration, and a sharp 14.1 eye will be able to pick out where the video was edited.

And second -- I would trust Willie's own autobiography over any video, because unlike video, printed materials last the test of time, and you have to get them right. Willie was much older in that video, his statement was during a conversational part, and it's likely he was confusing his 526 with another run that no less than pool's greatest historian, Charles Ursitti (who traveled with Willie) regales us with, where Willie ran a 589 during a practice to get in stroke (Charlie racking for him), and finally put his cue down because he was tired and hungry. It's easy enough to do during conversation. I am a published author myself, and let me tell you, there is much, MUCH more pressure for accuracy when writing a book than there is with someone conversing with you.

Behold:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=KGm4TtJQKXE

-Sean

 

[something_pool]

I see that you edit your post since I last replied.

That video you show has several flaws in it, not the least of which it was edited during the run because Mosconi missed at one point during that run demonstration, and a sharp 14.1 eye will be able to pick out where the video was edited.

And second -- I would trust Willie's own autobiography over any video, because unlike video, printed materials last the test of time, and you have to get them right. Willie was much older in that video, his statement was during a conversational part, and it's likely he was confusing his 526 with another run that no less than pool's greatest historian, Charles Ursitti (who traveled with Willie) regales us with, where Willie ran a 589 during a practice to get in stroke (Charlie racking for him), and finally put his cue down because he was tired and hungry. It's easy enough to do during conversation. I am a published author myself, and let me tell you, there is much, MUCH more pressure for accuracy when writing a book than there is with someone conversing with you.

Behold:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=KGm4TtJQKXE

-Sean

I think you're misunderstanding what this video is. I'm not claiming that this is a video *of his 526 run.* It's just an instructional video he made where he teaches you how to play pool. As such, it doesn't make any difference whether it was edited or not. The relevant part is at the end, where Mosconi is being interviewed about his 526 run. Here he says that his run ended voluntarily. So essentially you have two pieces of evidence -- a quote in a book which says his run ended on a miss, and a quote in a video which says it ended not on a miss. These are equally valid kinds of evidence -- they're both quotes from Mosconi himself! There's no issue of standing the test of time.

 

[JazzyJeff87]

Then you don’t think very well mine friend. No offense. Moving on..

 

[something_pool]

Then you don’t think very well mine friend. No offense. Moving on..

Hurl insults if it makes you feel better about your facile argument...

 

[JazzyJeff87]

Hurl insults if it makes you feel better about your facile argument...

Thanks. Do you play pool?

 

[Cornerman]

Mosconi didn't set out to set a high run record -- he just sort of continued playing after winning a match. .

This isn't really true either. Mosconi in his book Willie's Game mentions several times when he broke the 14.1 record. There's a mention that he was tied with Crane, then two more times that he broke that tie, and of course the 526. There are also plaques in certain pool halls commemorating certain high runs that weren't the 526. And the anecdote through Ursitti is that when there was rumor that someone unofficially beat 526, Mosconi went out and made two higher runs including the aforementioned 609 unfinished. So not only was he already setting out to break the record(s), he cared. His personality wouldn't let it go.

But it's all just stories, so I'd rather talk about the official, verified runs with no extra fluff or anecdotes. Mosconi had a finished 526. Schmidt had a finished 626.


Freddie <~~~ not the end of the story

 

[sfleinen]

Yeah, I think this is exactly my point. Alex Honnold has definitely achieved something impressive in getting this record. But that's not the same as saying that this record is the best that anyone could do. It's just what one incredibly dedicated person did. If everyone were as dedicated as Honnold, then there's no telling how many people could have done the same. Similarly with the 526 -- if all of the top pros were dedicated to breaking a high run record, there's no telling how high it would be.

Right, and the obvious reply to this is, "so what is everyone's problem?" That 526 stood for 65 years because no one touched it. (The closest was Thomas Engert, who, prior to John's 626, had the modern-day high run on professional-level equipment, which was 491 on a Dynamic-II 9-footer.) I venture to say it's because no one *could* touch it, without dedicating their life to 14.1 for quite some time. So, in one way, it could be said this is kudos for John, and in another, it could be said "raspeberries for everyone else, including the Mosconi hanger-ons."

I will say based on-point with the subject of this very thread, Dennis Orcullo would be more attracted to a $10K pot to beat someone in a head-to-head match (e.g. rotation game, one pocket, etc.) than he would for a $10K bounty for breaking the 526. John didn't need that. That speaks volumes to the "dedication" point you mention above.

-Sean

 

[Cornerman]

Mosconi says in the video that his highest run was 526, and that he did not miss, but quit. Again, not really important to the substantive point, but there are conflicting reports of whether he missed or not from Mosconi himself. There isn't just one source of truth on this.

Forget it. Clearly you believe this is the first time anyone's talked about this very old subject in the last 20 years.

Willie's highest run was in the 600's. He got tired and quit. Willie's 526 in Springfield, OH had many people including himself say he missed on the 6-ball. Seems logical that Willie was talking about the 609 when he quit.

But, I'm sure you know better.

 

[something_pool]

Right, and the obvious reply to this is, "so what is everyone's problem?"

My point is that this record is a fun thing to think about for the sake of giving out nicknames ("Mr. 626"). But it isn't an indication of who the best straight pool player is, as some people claim. I've seen countless posters saying that this high run makes JS one of the best 14.1 players of all time, or makes him the best 14.1 player today. That's completely wrong in my book -- JS is just the only one who dedicated several months to trying to break this record. If there were a 14.1 tournament, I'd still bet on Thorsten Hohmann or Filler or any number of top players over JS. In a nutshell -- the record just isn't that significant.

 

[something_pool]

Forget it. Clearly you believe this is the first time anyone's talked about this very old subject in the last 20 years.

Willie's highest run was in the 600's. He got tired and quit. Willie's 526 in Springfield, OH had many people including himself say he missed on the 6-ball. Seems logical that Willie was talking about the 609 when he quit.

But, I'm sure you know better.

I really don't know what to say to you here other than *watch the GD video*. Mosconi is very specific about what run he's talking about: he says 526. If he were talking about one of the 600 runs you seem to think he is, he would have said so. Clearly, you're convinced that you know what Mosconi meant even though in the video he clearly says the opposite of what you're saying.

 

[sfleinen]

I think you're misunderstanding what this video is. I'm not claiming that this is a video *of his 526 run.* It's just an instructional video he made where he teaches you how to play pool. As such, it doesn't make any difference whether it was edited or not. The relevant part is at the end, where Mosconi is being interviewed about his 526 run. Here he says that his run ended voluntarily. So essentially you have two pieces of evidence -- a quote in a book which says his run ended on a miss, and a quote in a video which says it ended not on a miss. These are equally valid kinds of evidence -- they're both quotes from Mosconi himself! There's no issue of standing the test of time.

And once again, you are misunderstanding my point, which was not to place too much emphasis on Willie's very-short conversation with the narrator. The "run" I'm referring to was NOT the 526, but the demonstrative run in that very training video, where Willie "runs" a couple racks ("runs" in quotes, because he actually didn't -- he missed at one point that was edited out and the balls placed back, but a sharp eye can pick out the misplaced balls). Where Willie stated in that video that he didn't miss, it was likely that he was confusing his 589 for the 526 (see the Charles Ursitti video I just previously posted in response to you), or else was doing his typical "<shrugs shoulders> vanity thing" that he was known for to add a final coupe de grace to what he just demonstrated.

-Sean

 

[something_pool]

And once again, you are misunderstanding my point, which was not to place too much emphasis on Willie's very-short conversation with the narrator. The "run" I'm referring to was NOT the 526, but the demonstrative run in that very training video, where Willie "runs" a couple racks ("runs" in quotes, because he actually didn't -- he missed at one point that was edited out and the balls placed back, but a sharp eye can pick out the misplaced balls). Where Willie stated in that video that he didn't miss, it was likely that he was confusing his 589 for the 526 (see the Charles Ursitti video I just previously posted in response to you), or else was doing his typical "<shrugs shoulders> vanity thing" that he was known for to add a final coupe de grace to what he just demonstrated.

-Sean

Sure -- you could choose not to believe what Mosconi says in this video because you think he was confused, or lying, or whatever. There's just as much reason to not believe what he says in the book because he was confused. At the end of the day, there are two quotes from Mosconi on this and they contradict each other. Choose to believe whatever you want.

 

[JazzyJeff87]

Forget it. Clearly you believe this is the first time anyone's talked about this very old subject in the last 20 years.

Willie's highest run was in the 600's. He got tired and quit. Willie's 526 in Springfield, OH had many people including himself say he missed on the 6-ball. Seems logical that Willie was talking about the 609 when he quit.

But, I'm sure you know better.

One thing I never thought about...what did the table look like when he quit the 609, if that’s how it really went down. There’d be a big difference betwixt walking away from a wide open table with options and being jammed up on a ball with a thin 8’ cut shot your only option with no position afforded. In that case I too may have just stepped away so I could be like...yeah man I just smooth dropped my cue and rolled to the Dairy Queen to chat w/Suzy

 

[sfleinen]

I really don't know what to say to you here other than *watch the GD video*. Mosconi is very specific about what run he's talking about: he says 526. If he were talking about one of the 600 runs you seem to think he is, he would have said so. Clearly, you're convinced that you know what Mosconi meant even though in the video he clearly says the opposite of what you're saying.

Dude, you're making a mistake here in going against Freddie. He has an established name in the pool industry, is a well-known match commentator, has a comprehensive grasp of pool industry, and I dare say I trust his word more than I do someone posting under the moniker "something_pool" with a single-digit post count to his name. Exactly who are you, anyway?

See, that's the problem with these wild-wild-west anonymous boards; one can say anything they want under an anonymous label, whereas social media at least keeps you honest because you're posting under either your real name or at least a name that can be tracked directly to a person.

-Sean